Shoots

Sunlit Man SPOILER

What order were you previously?

Thanks for sharing! Stories like this - where one rejects an order during their first read and then chooses them as their favorite on a reread - illustrate the depth to the different orders.

Yeah, I agree the personality quiz isn't everything, and can be disregarded if one feels another order is a better fit. Though for some orders we don't have much more than the personality test and the short blurb that came with it (though I believe we're going to learn all the ideals in the next year or two with the next Brotherwise-Stormlight colab). I like the Skybreakers for many reasons - personality, characters, responsibilities, ideals, spren, powers. though it wasn't until I read the Skybreaker blurb that noted the modern Skybreakers are more rigid than the ancient order that I was comfortable choosing them as my favorite. I applaud your patience; I couldn't wait that long! I love reading about all the orders, but get an extra bit of enjoyment when my favorite order shows up!

Picking an order of the Knights Radiant for the Words of Radiance leatherbound campaign has me thinking about when i switched orders during the Way of Kings leatherbound campaign. I'm curious to hear other's journey to their current order of Knights Radiant. so... Have you ever switched orders? What caused you to switch? Are you happy you made the switch? How likely are you to switch orders again? I first chose Stonewards as my favorite order after WoR for their focus on dedication & loyalty. Plus Taln is obviously amazing. When I took the official radiant quiz released with the WoK leatherbound campaign, I was surprised to get Skybreaker as my top result (and still do), whereas Stoneward is never higher than middle of the pack for me. Brandon also told us a little more about each order as part of the campaign. I put a lot of thought into my order at the time because picking an order is fun and I wanted to get swag for the right order. It was a close call between Skybreaker, Stoneward, Windrunner, and Truthwatcher, but I ultimately did decide to go with the quiz result and switched to Skybreaker. I've been very happy with the switch so far. Stonewards have gotten very little screen time so far, and it might still be a few books until that changes. (after OB, the lack of stonewards made me theorize all modern peakspren were refusing to form radiant bonds - turns out that was actually the inkspren minus ivory.) Skybreakers, on the other hand, pop up all over the place (even if it's often as the villain!). Szeth and Nale are both interesting/cool characters, and I enjoy learning more about Skybreakers through them. Now that I've committed to 2 Skybreaker swag packs, it would take a lot to make me switch orders again! the biggest threat is probably from the orders that haven't shown up too much yet, like the Elsecallers or... Stonewards.

We were never told which order the mistspren (sailers on the honorsprens' ship) are associated with, but it seems to me that they would only fit with the Truthwatchers because the other orders are accounted for.

I'm definitely looking forward to more information about the recreance in future books which can tell us more about the radiants motivation. One concern I have right now is why did the Radiants completely do away with their oaths? Shouldn't getting rid of the dawnshards be enough. After all it wasn't nahel bonds that destroyed their previous world because the bonded spren are of Honor and Cultivation. Our source from Dawnchant says Odium was the humans' god when they invaded Roshar so it must have been power from him that destroyed their old world. Another concern I have is how the Radiants reacted to the news that their ancestors were invaders. I completely understand that the KR would be distressed. I would be to. But breaking their oaths didn't right any wrongs. It didn't even prevent them from continuing to beat up on the singers because they enslaved the singers. Anyways I'm sure these concerns of mine and others will be addressed as we hear more of the events surrounding the recreance.

Though these same Radiants that supposedly felt terrible for invading the world of the Singers were also the ones who cut the Singers off from their powers by imprisoning the unmade that was providing their voidlight. The event resulted in many singers being not only slaves physically but also mentally. It would be the height of irony for Radiants to be torn up over the fact that their ancestors stole the singers land, only to be the ones to steal the Singers minds.

Having powers dangerous to the world seems like stronger motivation to me than realizing humans were invaders on Roshar a long time ago. Having dangerous powers has a much larger chance of affecting the future than discovering their ancestors were not who they thought they were.

I posted a very similar comment in another thread but as it applies here, I'll make it again. I believe the Radiants made the shattered plains with their powers capable of destroying a world. Going into Oathbringer, the mystery I was most eager to find an answer for was what caused the Recreance. I was thrilled when I found out the answer would be revealed in this book. But when I finally read the cause my reaction was like "Really? Is that really enough to cause all the knights to break their oaths?" While having the power to destroy the world is a huge concern, it is also very controversial as seen in our world in debates over gun laws and nuclear weapon restrictions. While I can see some Radiants saying, "no one should have the power to destroy the world," I imagine other Radiants replying "But we'll use our powers wisely as we have done for hundreds of years." The argument so far doesn't seem strong enough to convince everyone in 9 orders to break their oaths and kill their spren. I feel like something more is needed, even more than Honor's rantings at the end of his days. What could really change the minds of many Radiants is a terrible demonstration of their powers such as destroying a whole country. Now the argument changes from "we need to break our oaths because otherwise we might break the world" to "we need to break our oaths because we are breaking the world."

I agree with the theory that the KR shattered the land (maybe with division). I would like to take this theory a step further and say making the shattered plains was a huge contribution to the recreance. Going into Oathbringer, the mystery I was most eager to find an answer for was what caused the Recreance. I was thrilled when I found out the answer would be revealed in this book. But when I finally read the cause my reaction was like "Really? Is that really enough to cause all the knights to break their oaths?" While having the power to destroy to the world is a huge concern, it is also very controversial as seen in our world in debates over gun laws and nuclear weapon restrictions. While I can see some Radiants saying, "no one should have the power to destroy the world," I imagine other Radiants replying "But we'll use our powers wisely as we have done for hundreds of years." The argument so far doesn't seem strong enough to convince everyone in 9 orders to break their oaths and kill their spren. I feel like something more is needed, even more than Honor's rantings at the end of his days. What could really change the minds of many Radiants is a terrible demonstration of their powers such as destroying a whole country. Now the argument changes from "we need to break our oaths because otherwise we might break the world" to "we need to break our oaths because we are breaking the world."

Speaking of the power level of the god spren compared to the likes of Cusicesh, do we know how the unmade compare in power? Are they equal to the godspren, in the same tier as Cusicesh, or in-between the two levels?

I'm guessing Taln's flashback chapters will start by showing how he got included in the Oathpact. I believe he was a skilled soldier low down on the totem pole when the oathpact was planned. At the last minute the planned participant either died or chickened out as Odium tried to stop Honor's plan, and Taln stepped in after he proved himself to everyone with a great show of bravery and grit.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading about the Skybreaker order in OB and was hoping to start some discussion about their order with these prompts. 1. How do you feel about Brandon's decision to make Nale side with the singers? Personal Opinion: I love this development. While I would never personally reach the same decision in Nale's position, I think it fits perfectly with Skybreaker logic, follow the law above all else. Its about as logical as going on a killing spree because your master commands you. This also sets up the Skybreakers to go head to head against the Windrunners, an exciting clash between the current two most powerful Orders. 2. Will all the Skybreakers side with Nale (besides Szeth)? Personal Thoughts: All the radiants who swore to Nale have to side with him or break their oaths. Those who swore to obey the law of the land would seem to have more room for interpretation unless they have to listen to Nale's decision that the singers make the law of the land. I expect them all to side with Nale for at least the next book. 3. How will the Skybreakers get along with the Singers/Odium? Personal Thoughts: While Odium should be thrilled to get access to Skybreakers, I expect problems in an alliance between them. First, Nale isn't committed. He is still planning on training Szeth even though they are now on opposite sides of the conflict. Odium won't be happy with that. Also, Odium has started killing Radiants so does he want to kill Nale too? Finally, is the law of the singers as simple as whatever Odium says? 4.Why were the Skybreakers the only order not to betray their oaths? Personal Opinion: The Skybreakers are the order about obeying the LAW first while the other orders seem to do what is RIGHT first (though their interpretations of what is right vary widely). The other 9 orders eventually broke their oaths because they either feared destroying the world or believed they were on the wrong side of the fight. At the time of the Recreance, Honor was all about Oaths but didn't seem to care about humans which contributed to the other orders believing breaking their oaths was RIGHT. But Skybreakers still kept their oaths (many of which were probably made to Honor as the ultimate authority) because they obeyed the LAW of Honor above what is right. Honor's change also explains why the Windrunners and Skybreakers fought so much near the end of the KR. When Honor made decisions based just on oaths instead of the good of humans the Skybreakers would side with Honor (the law) and the Windrunners would do what was right.

Favorite Section: the mission to reclaim Kholinar. These chapters had great character and world building plus an emotional, climatic scene. Funniest Quotes: Pattern's math jokes. Each of these made me laugh out loud. POV Character I'm most looking forward to in next book: Kaladin is a close runner-up as he draws close to his next ideal and getting his shardplate, but Szeth takes the prize. I'm interested to see how his highspren interacts with nightblood and hope he travels to Shinovar like he wants to. Of course Dalinar won't just give him permission to go to Shinovar to kill people so maybe Szeth won't travel there, but I expect Szeth will make it there in the next book even if he doesn't go on a killing spree (which is perfectly fine with me) Biggest Question: Was I right to spend all my time reading or should I have paced myself (like the Tor.com releases made me)? And when should I reread the book? Next year? summer? right now?

Why is Nale sending Szeth to bring justice to the stone shamans? Because their error is denying the return of voidbringers, but at the end of WoR, Nale hasn't accepted that the desolation has returned.

Since the punishment for raising a false alarm for a desolation is becoming Truthless, shouldn't the punishment for ignoring a true alarm for the desolation also be Truthless? They were without truth when they denied the desolation (and based on Szeth's experience it doesn't matter that they thought they were speaking the truth). Also do we know anything about the stone spirits that Szeth mentions also said the voidbringers had not returned?

If they are directly monitoring Szeth, they would notice immediately he has a different sword. As far as I know nightblood cannot be dismissed like honorblades so Szeth could not hide the fact he has a new sword. And I suspect the Stone Shamans have a different way of keeping tabs on Truthless and their honorblades, probably connected to either their oathstone or the honorblade itself. I think the Stone Shamans would be alerted when Szeth's connection with either his honorblade or oathstone was cut when he died.

Where is the best place to salvage parts in Roshar? the Shattered Planes

Glad you enjoyed the thread! Do you mean include quotes from the excerpt? I did use Dalinar's vision to help fill in the epigraph. The vision tells us there is large scale fighting going on but doesn't say who the enemy is (One soldier does say 'devils' but that could just be slang). It does tell us one side of the war includes hundreds of windrunners and stonewards plus more humans. Honor also mentions these were the first KR to give up their oaths. All of this information is included in the modified epigraphs. Do you notice any other clues in Dalinar's vision?

I should address why I included fighting voidbringers as a possibility since they only come around during desolations and there hasn't been one for 4,500 years... or was there.... No, I don't actually think so, but I do think there is a good chance a desolation almost happened and that the KR stopped it with the recreance. The main evidence in support of this is it gives the radiants a purpose for the recreance. There are very few reasons that provide the motivation for such an honorable group of knights to disband, and this is one of them. Also, at some point after the final desolation and probably after the recreance Nale begins killing radiants because he and Ishar think that without radiants the next desolation won't happen. The recreance could have given them the evidence they use support this theory. One of the main problems with this theory is why no one remembers voidbringers returning since the last desolation. First of all, you must understand that people believe in the desolations even after thousands of years because they lasted such a long time (Nohadon's had 11 years of war for example) and many, many people died. Often whole nations crumbled from the carnage. If a desolation never truly started so voidbringers only returned briefly and few people saw them, it wouldn't necessarily take long for history to forget it ever happened. Now the main problem I see with this theory is that the heralds always return when a desolation is about to begin, but Taln did not return. That's why I maintain that this potential desolation was stopped before it ever started. But could voidbringers return without a desolation? First I should mention that with the term voidbringer I am including the Ten Deaths, creatures associated with and mistaken for voidbringers. In fact, I think it is more likely the radiants were fighting the 10 deaths than actual voidbringers. There are two big pieces of evidence that support voidbringer like creatures returning before a desolation. First is Szeth. Szeth is Truthless because he claimed the voidbringers had returned, yet Szeth was long into his punishment before Taln returned near the end of Way of Kings. Second is Dalinar's vision. When Dalinar says, "Are attacks by these beasts (one of the ten deaths) common?" Taffa replies, "During desolations, perhaps, but not in my life!" Taffa did not know there was a desolation coming. Either the heralds did not have time to spread the word yet or more likely they had not arrived yet. Furthermore, the knight radiant tells Dalinar, "Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong," The KR confirms the desolation had not actually started. The radiants also do not seem to be using a herald but other signs to realize the desolation is soon. So I conclude that voidbringer like creatures could return before a Desolation begins. So if the KR were fighting voidbringers or similar creatures how does the story unfold? The KR go to fight the voidbringers. At the time of the fight they realize there is a way to prevent the desolation but the cost is disbanding the KR. Honor compels 9 of the orders to disband starting with the Windrunners and Stonewards. The few voidbringers that did materialize before the recreance were eliminated by KR before they disbanded and since the desolation was prevented, history never realized the sacrifice the KR made for humanity. Also as a result Nale and Ishar conclude that killing radiants will prevent another desolation.

Thanks for your thoughts. My reasoning for assuming 'many' referred to KR is because the pronouns 'they' and 'them' seem to be referring to the same thing and the pronoun 'them' has a membership. KR is an organization where I imagine people would use the term membership. Along with that several theories about the recreance involve the KR being betrayed. While I don't have a favorite theory on how the KR were betrayed, it makes sense that something dramatic and traumatic like a betrayal would be necessary to cause the recreance. I could see 'many' also referring to those working with KR who felt betrayed when KR abandoned their oaths, but I think the whole sentence flows better and is more focused if 'many' refers to KR.

Thanks for your thoughts. As to who is strong enough to put up a fight against radiants besides those mentioned above: the Amians seem strong enough (not that they have a reason to fight radiants so other radiants seems more likely). I agree the book doesn't hold the secret since even the author who knew a lot about events surrounding recreance does not seem to know the cause. Yet even just the events around the recreance are fascinating so my goal was just to get as much understanding from the epigraphs as possible.

Understanding Epigraphs about the Recreance Hello readers, this is the first topic I created (besides an introduction) and it focuses on my favorite mystery from SA: What caused the Recreance? I've scoured the book for clues and read many interesting theories on the 17th shard. After all my searching the best description of the Recreance we have in my opinion is still the three epigraphs from the in-world Words of Radiance that deal with this event. However, these epigraphs are hard to understand because we only have small excerpts so it is not always clear who or what is being referred to. I did my best to fill in this information so it is more clear and could hopefully shed more light on the mystery. Every word I added to the epigraphs is in parentheses. Of course I do not know what every noun is referring to so in some instances I left several options. So my question for you is did I make any mistakes identifying what group of people different words refer to, or did I leap to any unjustified conclusions? Is there further information that could be added to make the epigraph more clear? How would you rewrite the epigraphs in your own words? Thank you for any feedback! Now, as the Windrunners were thus engaged (Who are they fighting? Voidbringers, Parshendi, other humans?), arose the event which has hitherto been referenced: namely, that discovery of some wicked thing of eminence, though whether it be some rogueries among the Radiants' adherents or of some external origin, Avena would not suggest. (What caused the Recreance: KR had potential to form bridge for next desolation, spren betrayed KR, Honor betrayed KR, dead KR go to Braize?)—Chapter 38, page 6 That they (Windrunners) responded immediately and with great consternation is undeniable, as these (Windrunners) were primary among those (Windrunners and Stonewards) who would forswear and abandon their oaths. The term Recreance was not then applied, but has since become a popular title by which this event is named. —Chapter 38, page 6 This act of great villainy (Whatever caused the Recreance) went beyond the impudence which had hitherto been ascribed to the orders; as the fighting was particularly intense at the time (again who is fighting?), many (KR) attributed this act to a sense of inherent betrayal; and after they (KR) withdrew, about two thousand (voidbringers, Parshendi, humans?) made assault upon them (KR), destroying much of the membership; but this was only nine of the ten, as one (order of KR) said they would not abandon their arms (shards/spren) and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine (KR orders).—Chapter 38, page 20

I believe Highprince Aladar will become a radiant (though he will stay a minor character). When he speaks with Dalinar before they march to the shattered plains he expresses that he is fairly broken which seems to be requirement for radiants, and his recent actions follow the ideals of the radiants. I don't know enough about him to guess which order he would join. He is a good soldier though prefers to command over fighting on the front lines, so he would be more likely to join an order focused on military.