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Everything posted by SLNC

  1. I personally don't think, that you can discuss one aspect of the triangle without taking the other aspects into account. It is too entwined for that. Narrowing the scope could have the side effect of diminishing the quality of discussion, because of too rigid topical constraints. Or if these constraints are lax, we'd just end up with multiple threads where the same things are being discussed. Just my two cents.
  2. @Mage of Lirigon Look, we have already danced this little dance in the past. You won't convince me, I won't convince you. Let us just keep it at that. Let me just say one last statement to this: Frankly it seems to me that people are pulling arguments in favor out of nowhere/assumptions.
  3. Maya sighed. Adolin interpreted. He could be completely wrong in that interpretation. Maya has no choice, but to let herself be used as a weapon. I can only go from Wyndle, who doesn't seem to like it. I get it. And yet, I don't think, that Edgedancers are agents of cultivating stuff. Their surges would be more suited for combat medics. Also, Cultivation's intent is still quite nebulous for all of us. Arguments based on assumptions aren't good arguments. And still, it shows where his priorities lie. Well, if he's such a good candidate as everyone tries to make him be on here and a Kholin to boot, I'm still asking why he hasn't attracted a spren yet. Apparently almost every other Kholin was able to.
  4. Elhokar. I think it more has to do with his lack of truly introspective moments. It is hard to determine his goals and intentions, so he raises loads of speculation. Of course, that will be polarizing. In a way, his lack of characterization is the reason for his controversial nature.
  5. The whole argument going on is that a bond is already forming. I don't think, that any cultivationspren - Maya or another one - would choose him, because of his general attitude to both fighting - dishonesty and honesty in the fight is irrelevant. Fighting is always connected with harming/killing your opponent and Adolin likes this in duels or on the battlefield. - and his priorities. Yes, he saves the kid - because he had to opportunity to do so -, but also doesn't care what happens to him afterwards. He just shoves it into the arms of a random soldier and is eager to get back to the fighting again. This doesn't show care for me. Besides, why hasn't some other spren chosen him then? Then there are arguments that constantly get flipped and flopped around, like first Adolin and Lift are alike enough to be a sign of Adolin's Edgedancer compatibility and when that point gets challenged, suddenly Lift and Wyndle are atypical from "normal Edgedancers" and "normal cultivationspren". I'm beginning to think, that this discussion is futile. Both sides of the argument are too entrenched.
  6. Thank you for reminding me of the Battle of Narak... I went back to it and looked at it. I get how someone can take this as "not enjoying killing", but he's not disgusted that he is killing. He is disgusted at how easy it is for him to kill them all, at the expressions on the faces of those he slaughters. He wishes for the Thrill to help him, but Nergaoul is already gone towards Jah Keved. What completely makes the point moot is, that he is happy for Eshonai to appear and eager to fight her - to the death, no less. He even thanks her for it. All in all, Adolin might not enjoy slaughter, but he enjoys the challenge of a fight, which also always is linked to the possibility of killing someone. Lift, our only other Edgedancer on of which we can derive typical Edgedancer behavior, hates hurting others. Wyndle, her spren, the only other cultivationspren we know, hates being made a weapon used to hurt others. This doesn't match. But there was more that it reminded me of. A certain flashback of Adolin's father to be precise. Dalinar felt dissatisfaction at how easy all of it was, too, but instead found the Thrill to numb this emotion. The exact thing, that Adolin searched for. Make of that what you will, but I believe, that it shows quite well how similar Adolin actually is to the Blackthorn. Him brutally - as indicated by how graphically it was described - killing Sadeas is just another outgrowth of that. Funnily enough, there is another scene in the same book as the Battle of Narak, that has no mention of the Thrill, but shows Adolin grinning at killing loads of Parshendi. In conclusion, I don't think Edgedancers actively sought the fight like Adolin does. They are deadly, yes. They are feared, because of that, yes. But that doesn't mean, that they particularly enjoy killing or decided to solve all their problems with it. Look at how Lift emphasizes stealing back the King's Drop, because she believes, that stealing doesn't hurt anybody, and that Wyndle doesn't like to hurt people. They kill if they must, but they don't seek it. They don't enjoy death, as seen how deeply moved Lift is everytime she sees someone dying - despite herself having seen so much death in her life already.
  7. It actually isn't. If they can't precisely determine the requirements to being chosen by a spren, how and why should they infer, that Adolin is worth it more than others?
  8. Fine, I've said my piece, because I was asked to. I didn't want to spread any bad vibes and I'm getting the impression, that different views are unwelcome, seeing the rather tense tone at the moment. It doesn't seem like a discussion, but rather a competition of proving yourself right. I'm off before my involvement escalates things.
  9. Nope. Since that chunk of investiture is the whole spren. The bond is what gives the powers and the spren the ability to manifest in the Physical Realm. I know. I did because it is the only explanation of how something similar to a Nahel bond could be forming in the current situation. Maya is not able to bond right now, because of her incompleteness. Previous knowledge tells us, that only healthy, complete spren are able to do that. Saying that incomplete spren can too is just an assumption. So, you don't know how the healing works, but can definitely say, that it is the same process as a bond reestablishment, even if the initial situation is quite different? Where does the information of the missing part of Maya come from? Definitely not Adolin's Spiritweb. On the topic of it just taking longer: I must ask again, where is the difficulty in that, that has been confirmed by Brandon?
  10. It definitely isn't. I agree on that. I even think, that a Nahel bond might be formable after a successful healing, but I don't think you can just apply the rules of a bond reestablishment to the reconstruction of an incomplete spren Spiritweb. It is not the same process. Whatever happened between Adolin and Maya during their time together might be the right track for a healing though.
  11. My point is, that we have established, that the point of connection is missing - gone -, right? It has been ripped out, but logically following that, the part, that has been ripped out, must still be hanging on the Radiant's Spiritual aspect, right? Hence Brandon saying, that you'd normally need the Radiant, that broke the bond to revive the spren (reattach the ripped out part of the soul), through rebonding and respeaking oaths - like Kaladin did. What I'm essentially saying is, that for a Nahel bond between Maya and Adolin, who definitely is not the Radiant, that broke the oath, even being able to occur, you'd have to reconstruct the missing point of connection beforehand. Because that is not rebonding an once-existing bond, but creating a new one. For that you'd need a healthy spren first. The question then is: How do you reconstruct that missing piece of information in Maya's Spiritual aspect? Simply attaching Adolin's Spiritweb in place would not be the same information, that was in there. Maybe it is possible, but what are the implications of it? Does it even give Adolin powers, which is what everyone is already concluding with finality? The point of the Nahel bond is, that the spren attaches to the human's Spiritweb, altering it to give him powers, and not vice versa. Why should Adolin attaching to Maya's Spiritweb give him powers? How can we easily decide, that the mechanics of a possible reverse Nahel bond are the same of a traditional one? By the way, sorry if I seem rambly, but that are just questions, that I think are worth asking. Regarding an investiture source: I always thought, that the spren itself acts like one, because of them essentially being Splinters of Shards, which basically are huge pools of investiture anyway (like how Preservation directly gives Allomancers investiture from itself, if they have the correct Spiritweb and the metals as foci). Spren hold a bit of Honor's and/or Cultivation's investiture. That always was my theory on it. The investiture source wouldn't be the problem, the problem is, that you can't just reverse the bonding process to fill the gap in Maya's Spiritweb with another random Spiritweb and then just consider her fixed, because the resulting soul wouldn't be the same. You either have to reconstruct the missing piece or reattach the original piece.
  12. Alright, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. One question still stands though, what do you think is filling the blanks in Maya's Spiritual aspect? A reverse Nahel bond, hence Adolin? Do we even have evidence of the possibility of that? The Nahel bond consists out of the spren's investiture - them being living investiture - flowing into the Radiant's Spiritual aspect, which is not the same as Adolin's spiritweb filling in the blanks, which would be different information altogether being grafted into the spren's Spiritual aspect - Hemalurgy-like. The bonding process can't just be flipped around. Or could it indeed be that the extent of retained consciousness includes primitive speech and sighing (like @BraidedRose suggested) and she's just never done it before, having it done now because of some connection between her and Adolin having been formed. (For the record, I never even denied that.) Because, let us be honest, Adolin talking to Maya is a happy coincidence, but not a particularly monumental task and Brandon said, that it would be difficult.
  13. So, the damage done to Taln's Spiritual Aspect is reflected in his Cognitive damage and the damage done to Maya's Spiritual Aspect is reflected in her Cognitive damage? Isn't that the same? The only difference I see is the amount of damage done (part ripped out vs. cracked). I still don't get why the same couldn't be happening to Maya, just in a less complete manner, since her current "ideal self" in the Spiritual Realm is less complete than Taln's? What I'm getting from your explanation here is that the perpendicularity kinda "overrides" the Cognitive damage for the time being and brings out the ideal self of Taln, which is represented by his currently cracked Spiritual Aspect. If it just overrides it, why should it be a problem, that Maya's ideal self is more damaged? That higher amount damage seems to be reflected in her very limited ability to communicate. I'm genuinely not understanding the logic here. I get your healing template idea, but at the same time you say, that this isn't even applied during the perpendicularity? And the perpendicularity rather acts as an override by temporarily bridging the gap left by the Cognitive damage between the Physical Realm and Spiritual Realm? Why shouldn't that be possible for Maya, too? It is not like her Spiritual Aspect is completely gone, but just partially. A lot more than Taln's, true, but she is also a lot more primitive in her communicative abilities.
  14. I don't know. The fact, that deadeyed spren look like they have been defaced in the Cognitive Realm, does suggest additional Cognitive damage for me. Like Taln has. The difference between Maya and Taln is, that Taln has a completely intact Spiritual aspect. I agree with that. I get that. What I don't get is the assumption, that because part of Maya's Spiritual aspect was ripped out due to the bond break on the Day of Recreance, her complete Spiritual aspect is completely unusable as a "healing template". (Going with Calderis explanation here, which I actually found concise and very understandable. Thank you for that.) It is damaged, which is reflected in her rather... primitive ability of communication, but why shouldn't the rest, that is still there not have healed her to some extent? Temporarily - like it did with Taln.
  15. You're right. My bad. I thought his statement was related to the theory, that only a Nahel bond will heal Maya.
  16. And we have a WoB, that some deadeyes retain a certain degree of consciousness, possibly even to have primitive thought processes. Which would make even the assumption, that Maya really is healing moot, since she'd have retained some consciousness. Look, @Narcoleptic Axolotl is right. The theory, that a Nahel bond is forming right at this moment, is based on a variety of WoBs (as in soft evidence - that is subject to change) and complicated thinking patterns, hinging on multiple assumptions and variables. To truly validate this theory, we just don't have enough knowledge at this point.
  17. I actually love the idea of Willshapers being something like engineers/tinkers/inventors, @insert_anagram_here. In a way, inventing something is an adventure and a lot of it is just trying to find something that works. For that you have to be curious to find novelties, which you can then maybe harness in a fabrial (a machine would be our equivalent). Actually, Venli was something like that back then. She was one researching and finding novel forms for the singers. As for the surges, fabrials seem to be spren-powered. Maybe their Transportation surge works differently by not transporting them completely over to Shadesmar, but being able to transport willing spren over to the Physical Realm, so they can be used in fabrial engineering? Cohesion can be used to alter objects on a molecular level. So maybe that can be used to shape objects for use in their contraptions? Like where we would use a lathe or mill nowadays? Maybe this needs a new thread...
  18. And I don't disagree with that. Just because they are capable and deadly, doesn't mean, that they must enjoy it.
  19. They have been described as graceful and higly mobile on the battlefield. Nale has not been calling them "dangerous". When we look at armies, Edgedancers fit one role like a glove. The combat medic. Their surges are perfect. Abrasion for mobility and Progression for healing. Medics are not aggressors. Medics have historically been known to be more pacifistic, than the normal soldier. On a battlefield, the forgotten are often the wounded. It fits. I'm sure, that the Edgedancers will be medics in the battles to come. Not aggressors, who enjoy killing.
  20. Yup. So why is everyone trying to apply the normal Nahel bond rules, when this new scenario, that we know nothing about, defies all known rules?
  21. Correct, we don't know how she was before her bond, but we know, that she once stopped caring about people and then felt like, that it was worse than being dead. From that we can easily infer, that even before that she cared about people, because someone has to. That is her own reasoning for it. Thus I think, that even before her bond Lift cared a lot. Yes, there were and probably will be failed Radiants. And yes, the Skybreakers kept their recruitment going, since they were the only Order that didn't take part in the recreance, but I hardly think, that we can consider aquiring Radiancy through squireship to be the same process as a reverse Nahel bond with a deadeye revival attached to it. See, to go back to my point I made earlier about idealism. Even squires, before they even have the chance to bond a spren, begin to believe in something. Their Radiant, they are squire to. They follow him. Yes, through this belief, there is a possibility, that they aquire a Nahel bond, because they live after their Radiant. They embrace a certain lifestyle, which makes them more susceptible to be able to speak the oaths and actually adhere to them. With our "natural" Radiants, that happened beforehand. Kaladin always had the desire to protect and lead - even if it would have been easier to flee from his masters in time of slavery alone, he took others with him. Dalinar became honorable and a unifier, before he bonded the Stormfather. This change of heart came from within. From himself. Lift always cared about other people, because someone had to. Jasnah believed in logic above all, before she bonded with Ivory. To Shallan I can't say too much, because much of her past is still unknown, but given her family and how broken her brothers are... I'm sure that she has been weaving and living a happy family lie long before she bonded Pattern. My point is: All of our "natural" Radiants have been living their Ideals long before they bonded their spren. They had the capacity and will to have a strong belief in their way of living and held onto it no matter what. With Adolin, I don't see that will. All I'm seeing is a free spirit, that doesn't want to be constrained by a code. The way he thought about the Codes of War and his unwillingness to take up responsibility (the King thing) exemplify that.
  22. I don't know what the Ideals of the Dustbringers are, so I can't say that her behavior aligns with them, but I do think, that she believes in vengeance. Once again, I don't know what the Ideals of the Willshapers (or whatever Order she will end up in, because even that is still unconfirmed) will be, so I don't know how well Venli aligns to them. But she does believe in self-betterment at the end of Oathbringer, when she swears the First Ideal. That said, both of these characters have only received a fraction of characterization, that our other Radiants (and Adolin, for that matter) have received, so it is hard to correctly predict their idealistic natures. I'm sure, we'll get more for them in the future.
  23. I'm gonna make this short and say why I don't think Adolin is someone, who should become an Edgedancer - no, going even further, not even someone, who should be a Radiant. A Radiant isn't measured on the actions, he's occasionally doing, but rather on whether or not he lives through these actions. All of our Radiants share one thing: They are highly idealistic. (They swear Ideals, remember?) Adolin isn't. Adolin doesn't have a agenda, that he follows. Adolin doesn't believe in anything. Adolin doesn't have a moral compass. (Remember how he didn't know, whether him killing Sadeas was right and completely relied on external approval/disapproval?) Adolin just goes with the flow. And he's happy with that. He said it himself at the beginning, that he'd rather spend his days lounging, dueling and courting the occasional girl. I don't think, that this desire has changed much. Over three books, he hasn't adopted a belief, that he follows. The last code he followed were the Codes of War (and not because he chose to do so, but because his father told him to) and thought, that they were rubbish, because they constrained him. In the end, he broke the Code of Restraint (and to an extent the Code of Honor), by killing Sadeas. Yes, Sadeas might have been an cremhole and his death might be justified and yet, Adolin broke the Codes to kill him. I don't see him able to adhere to oaths long. He's too much of a free spirit for that. And herein lies the difference between Lift and Adolin: Adolin might have done similar actions like Lift, that should qualify him as an Edgedancer, but he just did them, when the opportunity was there to do them. That makes him a hero, yes, and probably better than 90 % of the other noble lighteyes on Roshar, but he never did those things out of sheer belief, that it was the right thing to do. Lift, on the other hand, herself says, that she cares about other people ("the forgotten"), because someone has to. She genuinely believes that, because she also stated, that in the past she once stopped caring and thought, that it was worse than being dead.
  24. Oh god, you guys are converting me.
  25. Regarding Shallan berating the book merchant, there is actually an annotation by Brandon.