SLNC

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Everything posted by SLNC

  1. I'd call that an understatement. Pragmatic and ideological thinking are one of the most contrasting and tense juxtapositions in philosophy. Conflict is practically inevitable, but I don't see this as negative. Conflict is interesting.
  2. Or because his Dad got fed up with his endeavors, that got nowhere. Or because he was put in a betrothal, so social pressure (A thing Adolin verrrry much cares about - social standing) dictated, that he can't pursue other women. And the fact, that he already was through almost every eligible woman in the camps. Aside from an offhand remark towards Kaladin (again, lip service - nothing conveyed through his own thoughts) nothing is indicative, that Shallan was the catalyst, while his need to be in good standing in society and his family is well documented. As is Dalinar (and Navani)'s annoyance about Adolin's escapades, before he finally decides to go with Jasnah's suggestion of the causal. He would have never broken off this causal by himself, because of exactly that need to be in good standing with his family and society.
  3. Ah, this WoB. See this really doesn't "resolve" anything. It is good, that we finally have clarification, that Shallan made her choice and most likely will stand behind her choice. Although even this clarification has to be taken with a grain of salt, since WoBs aren't really definitive. But that is beside the point. Thing is, that Shallan would actively go against her decision is something, that I have doubted straight from the beginning. She's way too invested into keeping it up - not only due to her mental stability, but also because I do believe, that she feels something for him - for whatever reason -, yet I'm also convinced, that she did for Kaladin too. That just got shoveled on to Veil, which doesn't necessarily mean, that those feelings are gone. More like on hiatus is how it feels to me. However, this WoB does nothing to alleviate some other concerns: It doesn't exclude possible external sources of disturbance. Like death. Veil. Shallan will definitely continue to struggle with that. Especially which how Veil functions as an "unwanted feelings cache". That Adolin's stance to the relationship is pretty much still up in the air. We have lip service, that he is committed, but his thoughts never reflect that very much, eventhough he is one of the characters with a quite high PoV chapter count. Funny how that is, isn't it? Sure, he gets jealous once, but more due to the fact, that he sees himself as insufficient, which is also presented as the sole motivation for him to even get into a relationship with Shallan. He didn't want to disappoint his family. Valid motivation, though the question is if he really can commit to it in the long run. The WoB maybe resolves Shallan's side of the commitment, but Adolin's it doesn't even touch. Like the rest of the books don't either. There is always two to a relationship. I actually find it a bit amusing, that no one even considers the possibility, that Adolin might be the detriment to the relationship - and I'm not even discounting infidelity in that, looking at his past serial dating phase. I'm not surprised though, because his thoughts never give reason to think that. On the other hand, they also never give a clear cut picture about how he really feels about Shallan. Not denying him being attracted to her, that is shown often enough, but I'm talking about feelings. That is the whole thing, that seems so fishy. Shallan does indeed think about him a lot - her feelings make a lot of sense, even subjectively. Adolin doesn't think about her a lot - his supposed feelings might make sense objectively, due to his wish to not disappoint his family, but subjectively? Not really. Nothing I would really call loving. And that is what keeps me unconvinced about them.
  4. I respect your opinion, but please don't try to tell me which topics to discuss, because you deem them as more important. Thank you.
  5. It is what I did. I asked you a question. It is you, that replied with an angry accusation of me putting words in your mouth. Anyway, I'm out. This is going nowhere. But, for the record, I don't agree with you.
  6. I'm not putting words in your mouth. Here, I'll even quote you. This means, that you are acknowledging that they are. Everything else is my interpretation based on that statement. So, if her past and present are equal and Kaladin knows her past, while Adolin knows her present, but neither knows both, neither of them can help her? Or can both of them help her in the same capacity?
  7. So, you are telling me, that I am right, because her past is actually the root of her current problems and to actually help her, her past has to be known? You are acknowledging, that the present is inextricably linked to her past by causation, right?
  8. About her issues, but not about herself. What you think is more important for a life relationship is your own opinion.
  9. And by extent, Adolin, since the objective truth is hidden from him. Whether or not she is willfully lying to him is irrelevant. The relationship is built on untruth. At any rate: Shallan didnt get married because she loves Adolin and wants to commit to a relationship, end of story. She just didnt. Her entire thought process regarding Adolin is thus: 1 - Hes physically attractive. Especially his hair. 2 - Hes sweet, but intellectually inferior 3 - Hes not Kaladin 4 - Hes a good match, socially, and the kind of guy she would have dreamed of growing up (what girl doesnt?) But those arent he reasons she decided to marry him. She married him because: 1 - He was trying to leave--every time he mentions or insinuates anything remotely similar, she doubles down on the relationship and goes overboard proving to him that he is what she wants 2 - She panicked about Veil and Radiant, deciding that they arent her and therefore what they want is irrelevant, and stuffed them into a box so that they wouldnt mess things up for her 3 - Because shes deluded herself into thinking that Adolin knows who she is, and is therefore the best one for her, because she suffered such a psychological blow as Veil back in Kholinar (her run-to, back up persona) that she couldnt ground herself anymore
  10. It is absolutely different, since she hasn't even acknowledged these feelings of being from herself, but rather from Veil and is deceiving her future life partner, that she never had those feelings for Kaladin, but that Veil did. There is no honesty in this. Just lies. An apparent truth, that isn't a truth is no truth. If the so-called truth isn't true, there is no honesty.
  11. She. Does. The actual worry of Adolin wasn't, that she might not like him. No. It was, that she likes Kaladin too - maybe more - due to tangible reasons of her leering at him. These things is what she is telling him to wave away, because "Veil was the one fond of him". I can quote the book too: I'm fine with that.
  12. And how did your wife react to it? That is key. Did she just tell you "it is nothing, forget it." Or, did she acknowledge your worries and actually talk about them with you? I suspect, that it was the latter and I congratulate you to have found this person in your life, I really do. But that isn't what Shallan does, she tells Adolin to "forget about it", because Veil is the one fond of Kaladin, which is actually Shallan at the root... A thing, that you already acknowledged. This wouldn't make your situation comparable to the one between your wife and you. He is. I mean, the interpretation of him actually being perfect does depend on your own moral views of whether or not it was right to kill Sadeas, but the fact, that he faces no repercussions for it, does paint him as having done the right thing, despite having done a quite wrong thing (killing in a fit of rage).
  13. See, the bolded part? It never was made clear, that he actually wants that. He wants her. That is what he said, but what is her? The front, that she posed for him or everything, that he doesn't even know? That is exactly the point, because no one can make these statements without actually knowing the person he is pledging his love for. Unconditional love is reliant on actually knowing, that the love you are proclaiming might clash with usual conditions you might have. Adolin doesn't have that with Shallan. You can only proclaim unconditionality of love, if you actually know the worst - the nadir - of your partner. Which conclusions exactly? I'm not calling him thoughtless at all. Him wanting to break off the relationship is actually quite thoughtful. What I'm calling him is desperate to keep the relationship going. His first objective was to actually keep a girl for once and marry her. This was his problem all along. His desperation shows, that when he tries to break off the relationship due to Shallan's leering looks towards Kaladin and Shallan tells him to just "forget about it", he just handwaves it away and suddenly his worries are just gone. If he was truly passionate about the relationship, he'd be furious, that his girlfriend/promised wife was making googly eyes to another guy. His disconnect from the whole thing is so unrealistic, that I don't see the passion in it, that everyone tries to tell me is there. All his viewpoints in OB are similar, hell, @Dreamstorm made a great compilation about moments, where he is more passionate about Kaladin, than he ever is about Shallan. It is not hard to make these conclusions, but only if you don't come from a pro-Adolin standpoint to being with. He is painted as this perfect being. Too perfect to be human to be honest. And I just can't believe it to be true.
  14. Exactly. And I still can't fathom how you think, that it is good, that she is in a marriage with the man, that has never seen the other sides of her and expects her to be just faceShallan. She can never be herself in this relationship. Especially with her trepidation to show her other sides, since she is reliant on his affection to actually keep herself (faceShallan) around.
  15. This is what I'm expecting. The thing is... She doesn't plan on telling him, she says Veil can tell him sometime. She's already avoiding crucial parts again. Sure is. The problem I see is, that Shallan isn't honest to Adolin. And he himself isn't either - though less so than Shallan. Like with how he withheld, that he killed Sadeas, while she was chasing clues who might have did it for him. They are desperate to be together, but both for other reasons. Shallan to not lose herself, Adolin to not be the "guy that can't keep a girl". To not disappoint his family. In my eyes, that is a quite fragile foundation for a relationship for life.
  16. Even if, that relationship amplifies her avoidance problems with facing, who she is? The whole fiasco started, because she couldn't cope with the reality, that she killed her mother. She still hasn't faced that fact and now is in a relationship with a guy, that actively validates her avoidance scheme, since he apparently goes out drinking with "Veil". There is supportive and there is destructive supportive. Adolin's behavior is the latter, since it is like giving whisky to an alcoholic. True, she committed to the relationship for now and yet she wasn't in the right state of mind to do so.
  17. I don't know if it happens "frequently" in real life, but that is beside the point. I also don't think that there is something like false emotions. Emotions are emotions, they aren't true or false. Also, their admittance of emotions happened after the chasms, after everything cooled down for a bit. You do have a point here, and on the flip side don't. Kaladin notices, that something is weird about Shallan, but he doesn't press her on it. I don't blame him, its not really his place to do so. So, we know, that he noticed something odd. Then immediately after their fateful conversation on the boat, Shallan switches to Veil in front of him and he doesn't press her on it, because for him her behavior of suggesting mutiny and stuff isn't unusual, since he knows, that she can be quite sly, if she wants to. Which is also why I think, that he'd call her on her BS and make her realize, that she always was like Veil. Adolin has never seen those sides of her. We don't know how he would have reacted. And yet, Kaladin and Shallan have been a lot more honest to each other - even in these short moments. The foundation was there and yet they didn't build on it because Adolin was in between them and Shallan couldn't make a free choice there either, since she was relying on the Kholin's to help her brothers. You also forget their flight to Thaylen City, which for some reason wasn't even shown. Fully agreed. And that is why we also shouldn't make any assumptions about Kaladin's reaction. We just don't know. Not based, but because. That was the sole reason. The things she lists later are schmoozes, that she tells Adolin to not leave her. And quite frankly, that he's nice is not deep knowledge of him, but common knowledge. I think, that you and I have very different views on what is important in relationships, so I don't think, we'll ever reach a common ground here.
  18. Absolutely, which wouldn't be a choice of love.
  19. Not on the basis of feelings, but rather on the basis of Adolin "knowing her" and being better for her - in her eyes. It was a rational decision and not an emotional one. Is he really better for her? I don't know, but my stance from my current knowledge is, that he is more or less acting as an enabler of her avoidance scheme of split personality. I do think, that Kaladin would be more of a character calling her BS, if they'd talk about it in plain terms. I don't think, that he ever saw her as different persons like Adolin does. I wish, that she realizes it by herself though.
  20. I don't believe, that he is honest to himself. @DeployParachute wrote a good post about why. I don't think the number of Truths is fixed and rather the amount of Truths is dependent on the individual strength of the Truths spoken. Nonetheless, this wouldn't be a rebirth, but rather accepting herself with all her faults.
  21. No, it is pretty clear, that she split herself after Pattern showed her, that she killed her mother with him. She couldn't even hold Patternblade after that, so she created Radiant to cope with that. At this point, Veil already existed as a disguise, but more and more evolved into being split from Shallan. The point is, that she can't be without them either, since they are somehow all her. Just parts of her being compartmentalized into different virtual - not real - beings. The distinction is just in her head and the root of everything Radiant and Veil is Shallan in the end. That is wrong. At the point, where the first feelings toward Kaladin emerged she was totally and 100 % Shallan. Veil's transformation from disguise to virtual being started in OB. In fact, from a purely emotional standpoint, her feelings (back then) for Kaladin were much, much more profound. Yeah, she thinks Adolin is hot and nice, but with Kaladin she actually thought about her interpretation of how he might feel. She actually quite evaluated him and his mannerisms. Stuff she has seen in his eyes. There was a quite prompt and profound connection between them. Kaladin did the same with her. About how he realized, that she has felt pain in the past - and she didn't even have to say it to him. He just saw it in her eyes. No, she needs to speak Truths about herself. That is the whole progression path of the LIghtweavers. Not perfecting themselves, but indeed doing the opposite. Accepting how imperfect you actually are. She already was all of that. She just doesn't believe it herself. She sees herself as a monster. She doesn't like/love herself and thus relies on Adolin liking/loving her. Or, just believing, that he does.
  22. I concur, with the exception of Shallan in that situation being the "real Shallan" it is more of an optimized Shallan, that Shallan thinks she should be. Ever since she started delving deeper into Veil, she used her as a dump to shove unwanted feelings to. And also as a vent to do the things, that she sometimes likes to do, but she thinks isn't allowed to do, because it isn't expected from her. Now the question is... After all this, what is the real Shallan? Is that what is left of Shallan still real? Or has she lost so much of her original personality, that she isn't the real Shallan anymore? Regading "Without you, I fade": It's a really contentious thing, but I don't see any indication, that it is supposed to be a proclamation of "true love". It can be interpreted as that, but it more seems like a very, very veiled cry for help and one of the few true things she says, that she is afraid of losing herself and relies on Adolin to keep her around, because of the ostensive love of Adolin for her (another very contentious thing for me, since, from what I've read and in context with his past... relationships, I'm not so sure, that his love is that genuine.) In a way, she is relying on Adolin loving her, since she can't love herself anymore. And that is worrying.
  23. I know, I know. Old thread and everything, but I have only just read this. Oof. I think, that really depends on the person. And I don't think Shallan is that kind of person. I think, that the lovey-dovey stuff is a front for her to convince herself of those feelings. And we also can't say, that she isn't. We're talking about Shallan, the master of lies, here. To reiterate what @Ashspren mentioned again. Shallan is reliant on Adolin to keep herself around. "Without you, I fade" - that moment was where she was finally honest to herself. And that should be worrying, since she has reached the point of where she doesn't see herself being worth more than just being Adolin's wife. Hard to explain... bear with me please. If you look at most of Shallan's thoughts about Adolin from the moment they've met in WoR to their wedding in OB, most of them are fond, yes, but not really romantic, albeit with the single exception of her comparing him to a sunrise (which is weird too, since it was established in WoR, that she prefers rain to sunshine). Sometimes, she even hardly thinks about him. Except, that they suddenly are there in full force, when she decides, that she should love Adolin, because "he knows". What makes this so iffy for me is the sudden drastic increase in these feelings. Like she's forcing herself to love him and to feel those cliched feelings, because that is how she thinks love should feel like. And then before the wedding those treacherous feelings of unhappiness come up right before the wedding. Why should she feel that, if she is about to marry the man, she loves? If those feelings for Adolin are genuine? No, instead she has to shove those feelings away, because that is not how it should be. She forces herself to be happy.
  24. I agree, but we seem to be in the minority with this assessment here.
  25. Doesn't matter. The situation at the end of Oathbringer is still cliche. Thanks.