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8bitBob last won the day on March 11

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  1. This is basically why I've always said you'd probably need a better anchor than a coin, and is one of the reasons I said Mistborn would be at a disadvantage if they didn't understand the opponent. WoB says that Plate would stand up pretty well against small arms fire, and that's pretty much what coins are. You're also right about all of the points about penetration, but I think it's important to remember that this in no way prevents allomancers from killing with them. Steelpushing is that powerful. It's also versatile, so there's no reason they can't just use a better projectile for the job against an armored target. Parshendi are indeed stronger, but they're not Koloss tier or anything. Remember that Roshar is 0.7g, which is going to make things easier than we expect. They were also two handed slings, which I've yet to see in real life, but I imagine makes it easier. So yeah, still agree here. I just don't think a Mistborn would find it challenging if they had a heavier projectile. A rock the size of your head is still just a rock, and a hammer is still just a hammer, yet these still managed to crack Plate. The phrase has been used in this thread before, but Steelpushing truly is in another league compared to traditional medieval weaponry. The best comparison we've actually seen is when Szeth drops a many times Lashed large brick from a wall on a Shardbearer, which instantly shatters the breastplate and kills them.
  2. Based on what exactly? The descriptions between Kaladin's abilities (speed, dexterity, reaction times, etc) have always been described pretty similar to the effects of pewter. Extraordinary, but not completely inhuman, which is what it would take to dodge a bullet. Are you sure you're not just overestimating the capabilities of Knights? I'm open to examples otherwise if you disagree.
  3. Arrows would be nowhere near as fast as coins. Like, not even in the same ball park. Even in shorter distances, where they're at their weakest. Imagine you had a 600 ish pound crossbow (lowball estimate for max weight a Coinshot could lift) with a draw length of twenty feet, as opposed to twelve inches. Pewterarms gain increased speed and reflexes, but it didn't seem to help them to dodge either.
  4. Brandon's post just said full blown Mistborn, rather than Marsh or Zane despite the question phrasing it that way. That seems to imply run of the mill Mistborn. My points were mostly about the raw forces involved though, not skill. A green Coinshot is going to push just as hard as Vin, and be just as capable of producing monstrous force, so I'm a bit confused.
  5. If Adolin had the strength of twenty to thirty men in Plate, he would have thrown Kelsier clean across the training pit and probably pushed his rib cage out his back. Roshar does indeed have more Investiture flying around and being used, but I fail to see how that's beneficial here. Unless he's fighting on top of a dragon's hoard of infused gems, he's going to run out of Stormlight far sooner than a Mistborn will run out of metal reserves. Unless you're saying this will help against emotional Allomancy or Steelpushing the Knight directly, which is true but doesn't seem very relevant. As has been discussed earlier, this is up to debate. We also have no idea if being a Knight in Plate makes you stronger than a regular person in Plate. I realise that sounds intuitive to some, but a strong man isn't going to be stronger than a weak man in a mech suit. Same could apply to Plate. I'm not saying that this is the case, just that this is by no means a given. Potentially true, but more subjective than you're implying. A Mistborn is going to have no chance escaping a Windrunner in an open field, but they're not going to have a significant advantage in something like a city setting. Don't really agree with this on either account. Firstly, because Mistborn can do stuff like literally warp time with bendalloy and create cannon tier projectiles with their mind, which is insanely powerful, but also with the idea that duralumin is single use. Vin repeatedly showed that you can quickly down more metals after a duralumin burst, and she had to deal with Coinshots snatching her vials away, which will not be a problem here. It's more akin to requiring a reload than a one off burst. I think you're overestimating the durability of Plate and underestimating the strength of Steelpushes. We've often seen Plate be cracked by mundane things such as hammers wielded by regular troops, sling stones from regular troops and enhanced punches. Meanwhile, Steelpushes are anything but mundane. Coinshots produce hundreds of pounds of force over long distances, imparting incredible momentum by the time the projectile hits. The entire reason they're called Coinshots isn't because the have some sort of currency based motif going on, but because they can kill you with basically anything, so why bother having specialized projectiles? Imagine trying to kill someone with a forty five pound bow (or sling shot, if that's easier to picture) and all you have to fire is a coin. It's barely going to penetrate even the softest flesh, let alone go clean through as Coinshots have been known to do. If anything else we've seen break Plate can, a Coinshot with a decent anchor most certainly can. Because of this, you don't need a lucky shot through the visors for a kill. Even if the projectile doesn't kill, healing with Stormlight is not free. It's going to drain the Knight pretty fast if he's getting shredded by random debris. Once again, I've neglected to mention duralumin in this, as I don't really think Plate stands a chance against it. This also doesn't get into the theoretical uses for things like Chromium and Bendalloy for grappling, since we don't know how it would interact with needing to drain so much Investiture. We've also been told that Electrum has far more uses than we've been lead to believe (seeing your own death before it happens sounds pretty useful.) Like I said before, I think the Knight would probably easily win if they knew nothing about each other, but Mistborn have a lot of advantages if the combatants are familiar with the other at all. Finally, we have a quote from the man himself: Szeth was basically a less efficient, highly trained full Windrunner who eschewed Plate (which some were known to do) and Brandon still placed his bet on a full Mistborn. That's a pretty big mark of confidence, in my opinion. edit: New posts were added as I was typing. Apologies if some points were already addressed. edit2: Investiture interferes with Investiture. A Mistborn should be way harder to Soulcast due to all the metals they're burning. This is speculation, but I'd be surprised if it was possible (for all practical situations.)
  6. Rather than tackle more complex question of distance, I just looked at it from how a normal person would perceive three times strength. Things would effectively weigh 1/3 as much when flaring pewter. Assuming Kaladin would weigh 190lbs on earth: 190*0.7/3 = 44.333 So the question is, could pretty strong regular person throw 45lbs (20.5kg) eight feet? Yeah, probably. Or at least somewhere in that ballpark. It's right around the size of a large weight lifting plate, and people throw those around all the time for exercises of varying degrees of ridiculousness. The sparring scene was described as the full strength of Plate and Zahel was pretty upset with Adolin, so it probably wasn't an exaggeration. I realise that this doesn't jive with the Dalinar digging scene, but there's reasonable explanations for this. The workers could have simply have had trouble lifting it due to the awkward shape and weighting of the hammer. Like Dalinar says, a man in Shardplate can do the work of twenty men, but they don't appear to have the strength of twenty men. Needing multiple people and hands always makes a process more difficult and awkward. Honestly though, I think the full strength of Plate, like pewter, wasn't fully canonized, so its strength is a bit variable at times. My gut tells me Plate is probably a bit stronger than pewter, but I don't think it's enough to provide a very significant advantage. Maybe this will change in the future if Brandon decides to give more exact measurements for these sorts of things.
  7. I covered this topic a bit in the Roshar vs Fallen Empire thread, but that was about dead Blades and Plate vs a limited Mistborn. There's unfortunately some issues for this discussion, mainly due to a few factors: Which Order of Radiant is fighting? We know very little about most Surgebindings. We've never seen a Mistborn with access to the full range of metals so far (mainly Bendalloy and Chromium, but it's a big deal.) Because of this, it's hard to say. Many Radiants weren't even combatants, despite their powers. How can we tell how a Stoneward Knight stacks up against a Mistborn if we have no idea what their abilities are? Additionally, we've only seen Mistborn fight other metalborn, and that has a very strong effect on the combat. No metal weapons, no specialized projectiles, etc. I think the most important factor to mention here is how incredibly efficient all metal reserves are, and how long you can go if you swallow beads of metal. When performing a Pewter Drag, Vin and Kelsier consume five beads of Pewter, which allows them to flare for an entire hour. In case you forgot, Pewter was considered by far the fastest burning metal of the base eight. If I were to guess, I imagine this doctrine of low amounts of metal in powder form comes as a direct result of early generation Mistborn, which were much more powerful. You don't want such an easy anchor for another Mistborn in your stomach, even if they shouldn't be able to push it. Maybe Steel Savants could? Point is, this sort of thing is not an issue when fighting a Shardbearer, and if you have time to prepare, you will effectively have endless reserves to draw upon compared to your opponent. Other than that, it's a matter of the details and forces involved. How strong is Pewter vs Plate? I was reading a thread on my mobile that said WoB says they're actually comparable, but I didn't see a source given. If anyone has seen this, I'd appreciate a link. This seems to jive with what we've seen in books though: Remember that Roshar is 0.7g compared to earth. This is pretty strong, but it's not exactly Herculean, and not too dissimilar from what we've seen from Pewter flaring. I don't feel that Plate is going to give you a significant advantage in strength compared to Pewter. Additionally, I don't think a Mistborn is going to have significant issue cracking Plate by hitting it with Steelpushed objects. I don't have the time to pull up all of the examples, but the amount of force a Mistborn is capable of generating on an object is immense. While something like coins probably wouldn't work, something akin to a small cannon shot or horse shoes almost guaranteed will, which doesn't even mention the absurdity that is the Duralumin Steelpush. This gives Mistborn a large advantage in any ranged combat that they have time to prepare for. Personally, I think Windrunner without Plate would fare a lot better simply due to the usefullness of the Reverse Lashing in this regard. That being said, a Radiant is going to have significant advantages if the combatants know nothing about each other. Shards are weird. Radiant Shards even more so. I mean, a living weapon that can almost instantly become any shape and kills with a single touch? Metal you can't push on? Weapons that can't be stolen or dropped for long? I think a Mistborn would get pretty soundly wrecked if they tried to fight a Radiant in melee without knowing about these things. Meanwhile, a Mistborn is just a pretty strong and fast person who flies around. Nothing a Radiant would be terribly surprised by, nor be incapable of fighting. In the end, I think a Radiant probably wins if you just dropped the both of them on a field and they started fighting immediately. Not knowing the danger of Shardblades is simply too big a deal to ignore. That being said, I don't think this is a very realistic situation, and I give the Mistborn the advantage if the combatants understand the basics of one another's abilities and have any time to prepare. Really, when your options are: Use magic mindpowers to safely fight from a distance and wear down your opponent Try to fight an unstoppable murder sword in melee Which option are you going to gravitate towards?
  8. That name was confirmed to be Discord, right? I remember it being a name for the Hero of Ages in the Terris religion.
  9. megatheory

    This is possible, but it's a bit out of character for Suit, as his final confrontation with Wax showed he was more focused on Allomancy. He's limited to three "boons," two of which are Allomancy, not Feruchemy. At minimum, it means he's not just referring to Feruchemy when he says "boons", so it would be odd for Suit to go on a complete tangent about having other people store attributes for the Set and not even mention that he was talking about Feruchemy. Basically, I admit that it's possible that he's not talking about Hemalurgy, but considering that everything else he says is about Hemalurgy's limitations and why the Bands are better, it seems likely to me that that is what he's talking about.
  10. megatheory

    This goes beyond simple minor details, or being mostly right though. This is the difference between whether or not your car needs gasoline to run, or if it just needs a little inside to function. The fact that Allik does not contradict this is incredibly important, and probably the single most significant obstacle for the theory as a whole. A simple "they might be lying or wrong" just feels flaccid when speaking of something so important. That being said, the fact that the characters pretty much explicitly said that you have to actively tap the Investiture does not necessarily mean the theory has to be thrown out for this reason alone. It could be that this is simply the "unsealing" required to get the process started, and then they continue tapping the Investiture from there. In the car metaphor, this would be the spark plug that ignites the gasoline. Or something. Basically, just because you need a Connection to tap doesn't mean you can use a medallion without Investiture. They need not be mutually exclusive. You may be conflating two separate things here. The context on Spook answers why he can hear Kelsier while Vin and Marsh cannot, despite them being closer to him personally. The context for Wax answers why Harmony appears to be so much better at speaking to Wax than Ruin was for his "followers," and there's actually a pretty simple answer to this. Wax literally worships Harmony and understands who he is, what he's about and if he's actually God. Of course he has a stronger Connection to him than random crazy people had to Ruin, who was just a voice or feeling in their head. This is not necessarily due to the fact that religious Connection is stronger, but rather that Wax's Connection is stronger. They share a theme of religious devotion, but that does not imply a causality. That was not how I interpreted this line at all, so I wouldn't consider it obvious. Full context: Consider the greater context of what Suit is saying here. He's describing the fact that, even though they figured out how to spike people for their abilities, or "make someone else be weak, while we gain the benefit," he cannot have more than three due to the limitations of Hemalurgy. It's even part of the same sentence, so he'd literally be going on a complete tangent for half a sentence. He then goes on to explain that the Bands could help them get around this limitation and are more powerful. If there was a theme to what Suit is saying here, it is about how Hemalurgy is limited and the Bands are not. In this context, it makes perfect sense for "making someone else be weak" to refer to spiking, and fits within the natural flow of ideas that he's presenting. But, even if this is wrong, even if, then this line could still refer to any number of possibilities other than an implication about special Connections. Off the top of my head it could refer to: Stealing things other than metalborn abilities with spikes Learning how to spike away powers without killing them Making others fill unkeyed metalminds Because of this, I find the idea that it is "obvious" that he is making others suffer instead of him, or that this implies a special Connection, to not be a very strong argument. It rejects a perfectly logical interpretation and then assumes a direct implication that I honestly don't see. Again, I don't think any of this is impossible, and am more arguing against the idea that any of this religious Connection stuff is directly implied, inside or outside of the books. I think I understand your thought process a bit better now though.
  11. megatheory

    Alright, I've read the theory a few times now. There's some interesting ideas here that I find compelling, such as your thoughts on microsystems, Harmony using Ruin to fix Snapping, distinctions between Internal and External Connection, and some other things I forgot to list. That being said, I think there's some fundamental issues with the theory as a whole that are not addressed adequately enough to elevate it from simply interesting to genuinely compelling. I'm going to address them individually and in no particular order. 1) You do not need to tap Nicrosil to use a metalmind. This is directly contradicted by Wax and Allik in BoM: Wax specifically says you must tap the Nicrosil and Allik says he is correct. You can argue that Allik could be misleading Wax, or he himself does not understand it, or that nobody says they're tapping Nicrosil when using medallions, but the fact of the matter is that the theory is predicated on the idea that we are being deliberately mislead here. That is possible, but it is a fairly large jump to take as inherently probable. Additionally, as it's mentioned in the theory, it's actually very unclear on whether or not there's multiple Nicrosil rings in medallions with multiple powers: It's easy to go by this line and simply interpret it based on your initial impressions, but the characteristic lack of description in Mistborn means this can be describing two different scenarios: Wax is asking about a second Nicrosil ring, or he is asking about a third ring of an unknown metal and Allik explains that it is Brass, which is filled with warmth. This is important, because it doesn't tell us whether or not Nicrosil behaves like Tinminds, in that each individual sense requires its own metalmind, or a Coppermind, which can hold many individual, distinct memories. Unfortunately, WoB doesn't help us here. All that has been said on the matter is that you store each power individually, but you do the same with memories, and they can still share a Coppermind. It's not even a requirement for there being multiple Feruchemists, as it's confirmed that multiple people can store in the same metalmind even if their Identity interferes. Ultimately, this isn't that big a deal for the theory, just thought I'd bring it up. 2) Religious devotion as a key component My issue here is that you're reading very heavily into a single line and annotation, coming to a fairly radical conclusion. Once again, I am not saying this is impossible, but the basis of the theory is reliant upon how well this idea stands up to scrutiny. Unfortunately, this is simply one idea to explain what's happening here out of infinite possibilities. In that way, I feel it is not very convincing, even if it is compelling. For instance, it is entirely possible that Spook can hear Kelsier not because of some special feature of religious Connection, but because Spook has the right Connection. Spook sees Kelsier as a god and, for a time, he is. Via this daisy chain of deific worship, Spook has a greater Connection to Preservation, even though Vin and Marsh are more Connected to Kelsier personally. A subtle distinction, but an important one, and just one of many possible explanations. 3) The Set uses deific worship to store other people's attributes This section honestly came out of left field for me, as there's not even any indication that Templeton had Goldminds. Once again, it's heavily reading into a single line, and only makes sense in the larger context of your theory. It ignores simple realmatics that the Set obviously knows and could use (Hemalurgy, Compounding and Identity) in favor of a highly advanced use Connection that could have potentially taught them how to make medallions from scratch, if the theory is correct. In essence, this seems like a very complicated way to achieve something they could probably already do, all based on the description of one skinny, haggard woman. Rather than being internally consistent, it only exists as a means to support the theoretical idea that religious Connection is important and powerful. 4) Soulbearer Ferrings can tap Hemalurgical spikes This idea is cool, but it ignores what we understand about Feruchemy. For one, it would require you to tap metals other than Nicrosil, which is fundamentally problematic. I realise that this is based around the idea that Hemalurgy forms a Connection when spiked in, and the Soulbearer then taps this part of "their" spirit web rather than the metal itself, but spikes are still treated as fundamentally separate things from the person they're inside. Brandon describes it as soul "tacked on" rather than truly being a part of the person's spirit web, and thus I remain skeptical that they could innately tap and move this Investiture trapped in a different metal. Additionally, we have indication that just because Investiture is inside the right metal does not mean you can tap it. Brandon describes it as acting like corrupted sections of a hard drive. It is possible that Soulbearers are the exception here due to the nature of their power, but technically all Feruchemy involves Investiture already. I really like this idea, but have issues getting past idea that they can just innately tap other metals, even if they're connected to their spirit web. I have less issues with the idea that Soulbearers could move around Hemalurgical charges already inside Nicrosil though. I'm sure there was more I meant to cover, but oh well. May as well start from these points for now.
  12. megatheory

    Alright, I've given this a full read, but this isn't the sort of post you can tackle without multiple reads. Initial response: I like it, but have some issues with the exact mechanics, and theorized abilities of the Set. Additionally, I feel the need to point out one glaring flaw. We have seen someone tap Nicrosil while using a medallion, though it was a bit of a special case in many ways: Wax and the Bands of Mourning. Now, this is indeed a special case, but the Bands have still been presented as essentially a medallion in nature. Thing is, I feel it is possible to reconcile this with your larger theory, though it may change the specific mechanics of medallions, if not the process or effect. What I think is important to consider is the fact that this is the only case of a medallion granting Allomancy, and it is also the only the only case where we are explicitly told they're draining the Investiture. Why is this? Well, my theory is based on this WoB: Basically, weaker Feruchemists suck at storing attributes. The example given is via Hemalurgy, but it's possible that this is a more general phenomenon. I theorize that, while they are bad at storing, they are no worse at tapping. This would make a lot of sense for the medallions we've seen, and why using the Bands of Mourning drains the Investiture inside. Under the logic of your theory, the Iron or Brass medallion forms a Connection with the wearer and makes them a very, very weak Ferring. So weak that if you store, you barely put any attribute in. For Iron, this could be considered a feature, as it means you wouldn't have to periodically dump the excess "weight" from the Iron ring. For Brass, it is possible that this does not have an effect on tapping unkeyed Heat. Same goes for unkeyed Connection. This is not possible with Allomancy. Being a weak Allomancer is not something you can trick your way around, as you'll be too weak to even Steelpush yourself off the ground, let alone Ironpull a ship out of the sky. This is why Wax needs to actively tap Investiture with the Bands, rather than simply rely on available unekeyed stores. Alright, back to rereads for a larger opinion on the theory as a whole.
  13. Hmm? Is this referring to my opening paragraph where I say they're not used as soldiers? Or because of how I described Mistborn using underhanded tactics to take down Radiants? Either way, this wasn't really so much a commentary on whether or not they could fight them, and more a commentary on the fact that, due to their cultural and societal influences, Mistborn are not likely to just try to take them in a straight up fight. They'll play dirty, and the conflict and their power set rewards them for doing so, so their natural tactics favor them. Basically, I think a Mistborn could probably take anything Roshar fields in a straight fight, but I also think they have no reason or inclination to do so.
  14. Chiming back in to say: this. I touched on it in my original post, but this bears further elaboration. Up to this point, Mistborn have been used almost exclusively as assassins, not soldiers. They're not going to simply line up with the rabble and give impassioned speeches, bravely challenging proto-Radiants to one on one duels. A Mistborn trying to kill a Radiant would probably involve baiting them into a group of Koloss to slaughter (or Skaa. Let's be honest, this is the Final Empire we're talking about) and unleashing as much deadly metal into the air as humanly possible, friendly fire be damned, from a safe position where you hid among the regular troops. Or, you know, killing them in their bed. Their tactics are fundamentally different, and I believe they're an important factor in this scenario. Regular troops are going to get slaughtered in this conflict by the very real threat of wizards coming to kill you. Scadrial has far more magic to throw around, and so anyone with Plate or Blade is going to be needed in every situation where you don't want your troops to just get completely cut down by coins. This is where Roshar has a distinct disadvantage: it's really hard to hide a six foot blade, crystalline armor or a flying glowing dude. Mistborn are going to know where most of their targets are at all points in the battle, whereas a Mistborn can be incredibly hard to spot doing their job if they want to. Even Spook, a Tin Savant, mistook the Citizen and his sister for which was a Coinshot, and they weren't even trying to hide. In a conflict that is so heavily weighted upon taking out key targets, this gives Scadrial a large advantage. Szeth really says it best: this power was not meant for assassins. I understand someone like Kal could be planted among the troops and go in for an ambush, but every moment they spend not affecting the battle is going to have drastic costs for the Rosharan forces, and they're almost guaranteed going to be engaging from a range anyway. This is even ignoring the very real possibility that Seekers could easily sense Radiants due to the fact that they use far more Investiture than metalborn. It's already confirmed that this is possible, I'm just theorizing that it would be easy. I just feel the discussion hadn't addressed this properly. Mistborn are not the equivalent of Shardbearers or even proto-Radiants: each and every one of them is an Assassin in White, and that's a whole different beast.
  15. I've been thinking along these lines lately due to a line from Hero of Ages: The quote comes from Sazed post-Ascension, so he knows how this stuff works. There's an implication here though: could you reuse a single spike to steal attributes from multiple people and grant them all with the single spike? Sazed seems to be implying that you can grant more strength with a spike if you use it on multiple people. A single metal type steals multiple types of metalborn abilities. Can you use a single spike to steal each of them and grant them all at once? Atium can steal any attribute. Can you use it to steal every power and grant them all with a single spike? So many questions.