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8bitBob last won the day on March 11

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  1. Hmm? Is this referring to my opening paragraph where I say they're not used as soldiers? Or because of how I described Mistborn using underhanded tactics to take down Radiants? Either way, this wasn't really so much a commentary on whether or not they could fight them, and more a commentary on the fact that, due to their cultural and societal influences, Mistborn are not likely to just try to take them in a straight up fight. They'll play dirty, and the conflict and their power set rewards them for doing so, so their natural tactics favor them. Basically, I think a Mistborn could probably take anything Roshar fields in a straight fight, but I also think they have no reason or inclination to do so.
  2. Chiming back in to say: this. I touched on it in my original post, but this bears further elaboration. Up to this point, Mistborn have been used almost exclusively as assassins, not soldiers. They're not going to simply line up with the rabble and give impassioned speeches, bravely challenging proto-Radiants to one on one duels. A Mistborn trying to kill a Radiant would probably involve baiting them into a group of Koloss to slaughter (or Skaa. Let's be honest, this is the Final Empire we're talking about) and unleashing as much deadly metal into the air as humanly possible, friendly fire be damned, from a safe position where you hid among the regular troops. Or, you know, killing them in their bed. Their tactics are fundamentally different, and I believe they're an important factor in this scenario. Regular troops are going to get slaughtered in this conflict by the very real threat of wizards coming to kill you. Scadrial has far more magic to throw around, and so anyone with Plate or Blade is going to be needed in every situation where you don't want your troops to just get completely cut down by coins. This is where Roshar has a distinct disadvantage: it's really hard to hide a six foot blade, crystalline armor or a flying glowing dude. Mistborn are going to know where most of their targets are at all points in the battle, whereas a Mistborn can be incredibly hard to spot doing their job if they want to. Even Spook, a Tin Savant, mistook the Citizen and his sister for which was a Coinshot, and they weren't even trying to hide. In a conflict that is so heavily weighted upon taking out key targets, this gives Scadrial a large advantage. Szeth really says it best: this power was not meant for assassins. I understand someone like Kal could be planted among the troops and go in for an ambush, but every moment they spend not affecting the battle is going to have drastic costs for the Rosharan forces, and they're almost guaranteed going to be engaging from a range anyway. This is even ignoring the very real possibility that Seekers could easily sense Radiants due to the fact that they use far more Investiture than metalborn. It's already confirmed that this is possible, I'm just theorizing that it would be easy. I just feel the discussion hadn't addressed this properly. Mistborn are not the equivalent of Shardbearers or even proto-Radiants: each and every one of them is an Assassin in White, and that's a whole different beast.
  3. I've been thinking along these lines lately due to a line from Hero of Ages: The quote comes from Sazed post-Ascension, so he knows how this stuff works. There's an implication here though: could you reuse a single spike to steal attributes from multiple people and grant them all with the single spike? Sazed seems to be implying that you can grant more strength with a spike if you use it on multiple people. A single metal type steals multiple types of metalborn abilities. Can you use a single spike to steal each of them and grant them all at once? Atium can steal any attribute. Can you use it to steal every power and grant them all with a single spike? So many questions.
  4. For pure combat ability, it's pretty hard to beat Steel/Steel. Iron is fairly useful for flashy, destructive uses like we've seen Wax do, but it's pretty hard to beat the sheer killing power of Steel compounding. Gold/Gold is unique in that it becomes more powerful as personal weaponry does: it's pretty hard to fight somebody with a fully automatic assault rifle/suicide bombs that aren't actually suicidal if you're not rocking something similar. That being said, I'd personally go for something a bit more theoretical: A-Pewter/F-Nicrosil. Full disclosure, this is working under the assumption that F-Nicrosil can be used to make you a more powerful Misting. If you look at Pewter, it honestly has a pretty absurd list of disparate powers: speed, strength, toughness, endurance, balance and healing. Its only real downside is that you only get a little big of each. Brandon has not canonized these things, but he pictures it as twice as strong baseline, three times as strong flaring. Let's just work under the assumption that every category is scaled similar to strength, so flaring adds two times your baseline stats. This means that if I could tap Nicrosil for Allomantic strength, I could theoretically become a 10x more powerful Thug, which translates to 20x my baseline stats being added. At that level of toughness and speed, it's going to be very hard to get a meaningful hit on me with conventional weaponry. Basically, this combination lets me become a pseudo-Ferring for multiple attributes, and a more powerful one at that. Then, even if I run out of stored Nicrosil, I'm still a Thug. This could theoretically have many uses outside of combat while also being strong in its own right. The other minor downside to this is that Pewter burns so quickly, and stronger Allomancers burn metals even faster. I think this has been fairly overblown though. When Vin and Kelsier perform a Pewter Drag, five beads of Pewter let them flare for an entire hour. Even if this meant I needed to burn metals at ten times the rate (it probably wouldn't, since stronger Allomancers are also more efficient) then that's still pretty manageable.
  5. Yeah, I'm pretty sure there's a WoB floating around that says they weren't taught to compound, though some may have figured it out. Or something. It would still be very useful for taking out dangerous targets like Kaladin, which was more my original point. I am not exaggerating when I say that this is probably more emotion than Jasnah shows in the rest of the book combined, including when she killed a bunch of dudes. This comes as a complete shock to her. If literally hundreds of ardents have used these devices over the years and all saw the Shadesmaer, I cannot imagine Jasnah being so surprised that Shallan has seen it, especially if she just spent an entire book hanging out with an ardent who theoretically could have told her. Nor can I imagine Jasnah not immediately determining how Soulcaster fabrials work after she started doing it on her own. I'd sooner expect Shallan not to draw than Jasnah not seek answers. I admit it is possible that Kabsal is still wrong or lying, but the pieces simply fit better if fabrials do not work the same. I'm sure there's at least some people who are varying degrees of aware, but it is not presented as common knowledge, and ardents are fairly common.
  6. Basically, there is no modern understanding of the Cognitive Realm. When Shallan describes it to Jasnah at the end of WoK, she is shocked and asks her where she learned about it. It seems unlikely that Jasnah could not pry this information from the ardents in Kholinar. Heretic or not, she is sister to the King and one of the most prominent scholars in the world. I think it is more likely that Kabsal is correct, and Soulcaster fabrials are not as complex to use as Soulcaster surgebinding (with the likely trade off of being less flexible, which is another thing said of them.) A tool made for a task rather than a set of paint brushes, if you will. While I'm sure they are devilishly complex to design and build, fabrials have been presented as fairly simple to operate so far. Nah, Inquisitors had some level of Feruchemy before the death of the Lord Ruler. This is why they had to rest for extended periods of time, and why they had accelerated healing far beyond Pewter, like when Vin cuts up the Inquisitor's face and he walks back into the room fully healed shortly after.
  7. Point of clarity: your weight does not necessarily affect the amount of force you can Steelpush with. There's a bit of confusion surrounding this, as Kelsier claims he had an advantage against Vin, but he could simply be referring to the fact that, if both of them push on something, she will fly away faster due to her smaller mass, rather than her having weaker steelpushes. I'm currently doing a reread of the original trilogy, and I'm hoping to be able to gain some insight into this, but it is not clear cut. It gets even more complicated when you think about Wax. On the one hand, all of his most impressive pushes have involved increasing his weight, but on the other hand, he specifically says it gets harder to push himself as his weight increases and he slows down, which implies he's not pushing any harder. Regardless, even if your personal weight plays a factor, that still does not mean wearing Plate makes you push harder. It would allow you to push on objects without getting knocked back as far, but you can accomplish the same thing by pushing or pulling on another anchor to counteract it (like basically every Mistborn we've seen do.) Remember that this scenario is based around the idea that Roshar and Scadrial are at war. It is entirely plausible for Scadrial to kill Shardbearers during the conflict and steal their Shards. We have seen Szeth kill multiple Shardbearers plus dozens of infantry by himself, and regular Mistborn are supposed to be more dangerous than him according to WoB. I see no reason why they can't get their hands on a few and then use them to fight Kaladin. You're making the assumption here that Mistborn are preparing to fight other Mistborn, which is not the case here. There's no reason they wouldn't bring Atium to fight against non metalborn. Maybe in the very first battle if they knew nothing about each other, but this is a war, not a single fight. You are massively, massively underestimating Atium here. For a long time, it was basically assumed that the only way to beat someone with Atium is to have more Atium. It is literally the ability to perfectly predict what your opponent is going to do, and expanding your mind to be able to interpret these possibilities and react accordingly. It is a God metal. It is OP. As for being physically superior, I think you're forgetting that Pewter exists. If Kaladin or Szeth can fight Shardbearers with Stormlight, then I have no doubt that Mistborn could, never mind the fact that they could literally see the future. I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Kaladin is going to get stronger? I mean, sure, most likely, but he's still just one guy. Basically, it comes down to whether or not they have access to Feruchemical speed, which not every Inquisitor did. If I was Scadrial, first thing I'd do is give a stolen Shardblade to one who did and have him assassinate Kaladin with a massive burst of speed. It's kind of hard to fight someone who moves faster than you can see and can kill you in one hit.
  8. Well, that assumes that having Plate actually increases your ability to push, rather than simply behaving as a bunch of dead weight around you, which would just make it harder for you to get around via Steelpush. Possible, but who knows. It probably puts him above a vanilla Mistborn, sure, but there's a few things to consider: This assumes no Atium This assumes the Mistborn does not have a Shardblade, which they can acquire during the war Inquisitors (at least some) are much more powerful than Mistborn due to having access to Feruchemical abilities and stronger Allomancy Kaladin is just one man and by far the most dangerous proto-Radiant we've seen in action, whereas there are a fair number of Inquisitors and Mistborn Personally, I'd give a massive advantage to an Inquisitor with a Shardblade over Kaladin in a straight fight. Now, if we're talking pre-Recreance Roshar (with tonnes of Radiants) vs TFE Scadrial, then I assume Scadrial is going to have a much harder time of it, but that's a whole other discussion. Also, just as a sidenote, Szeth can still surgebind if his Honorblade is dismissed.
  9. I've finished my WoK and WoR reread, and I've come across some interesting info. This scene is actually interesting. Long story short, he actually one hit kills both Shardbearers in this scene. One with a stone and one with his Honorblade, both of which utilized repeated Lashings and falling a fair distance. Both Shardbearers had been lightly knocked around by things like falling spearmen, but it was played off as a distraction, and at no point were they described as having their armor cracked or leaking Stormlight. For the stone, the details are vague. He lashes a stone of indeterminate size exactly twenty times, it falls an indeterminate distances and shatters the breastplate, killing the user. From reading the scene, the stone appears to at least be smaller than a man's torso, as it was not described as crushing him or damaging anything other than the breastplate. The distance it falls is harder to determine, but the battle takes place in a banquet hall of some sort, so it could only fall so far. Based on this, I still think it pretty likely that a Coinshot could generate that level of force if they had some more distance to work with. Worst case scenario, you get some Mistings to work as a team, instantly doubling the force you can output after they get some practice aiming as a team. I don't think this would be necessary though. So it seems we may be wrong about how difficult it is to Soulcast: Shallan assumes that Kabsal is wrong because that's not how Jasnah does it, but we of course learn that she never had one anyway. Kabsal has apparently heard this from multiple sources, and I don't see why he'd be lying to Shallan about this. If it is truly that simple, it is actually possible that you could learn how to operate a Soulcaster simply through observation. I imagine Intent plays a role still, but it still seems like it could work. Turns out we're probably wrong here: The source is a bit unfortunate in that there was some confusion and it is paraphrased, but unless they completely misunderstood Brandon's clarification, it seems to indicate that you can indeed push on stuff while inside Plate. The idea of a Mistborn in Plate suddenly becomes terrifying. Last bit of info to discuss: That is pretty crazy if you think about it. Right up until Kaladin kills him, Szeth is presented as by far the most dangerous combatant on Roshar. The fact that a Mistborn can go toe to toe, to say nothing of an Inquisitor, does not give me much hope for Roshar in a conflict. This doesn't even account for something like the Mistborn getting their hands on a Shardblade.
  10. I mean, this is theoretically possible, but it seems very unlikely. Why would another God's metal rewrite your sDNA in such a way that it mimics another God's investiture? Again, possible, but this also has problems. For one, we don't actually know whether or not Harmonium has alloys yet. Brandon has been a bit vague on the matter, so we'll have to see. We also haven't had any indication that God metals can be alloyed together. Finally, if it was an alloy with one of the base sixteen, then the Southerners should have still have plenty of Feruchemists walking around and no need for medallions, because they could make it. While I suspect it is possible to make someone a Feruchemist using advanced realmatics, it seems unlikely that we'll be seeing it any time soon. Also, I hate to repeat mini-mod, but you should not be triple posting, as per the forum rules. Specifically:
  11. Alright. Are you proposing this is Sazed's God metal, a different God's metal, or an alloy of one?
  12. This is also confirmed to be incorrect. Harmonium = Sazedium = Ettmetal. Sazed calls it Harmonium specifically because he doesn't like the name Sazedium. I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying still. Are you proposing there is a new God metal, or a new basic metal, or what? Is it a metal we've seen but misunderstood? Are you still proposing it grants Feruchemy when tapped by anyone? Also, hate to mini-mod, but it is generally frowned upon to double post. It is preferable to make one large, well formatted post than to break them into separate posts.
  13. Hmm? Are you saying Ettmetal may not be Harmonium? I can't pull up the WoB at the moment, but it is confirmed that Ettmetal is Harmonium. Yata is right here. The Southerners use Harmonium extensively, yet still need to use medallions to become temporary Feruchemists. If Harmonium has a Feruchemical effect, it seems very unlikely that it makes you a Feruchemist. edit: Figured I'd take the time to pull up the WoB:
  14. Fair point. I'd say it's a fair concession that Roshar would fair better the larger the line of battle was. I guess it would ultimately come down to whether or not you could stretch the Coinshots, Lurchers and Mistborn far enough across the army to create dead zones in the protection. Right, I forgot about that scene. I'm currently in the middle of a WoK reread, so I'll have to pay special attention to Szeth's murders. Thanks for the heads up on this. Personally, Steel/Iron consumption is actually one of the things I'm least worried about in this conflict. So much of the Allomantic combat we've seen is shaped by the assumption that your enemy will mess with your metal, but that's not an issue here. Like, if you compare the cost in steel to outfit an army in basic gear and create arrow tips, it makes the metal burned by mistings seem tiny by comparison. You don't even have to bother turning them into shavings so they'll make poor anchors either. Just swallow a nearly endless supply of cheap beads throughout the battle and make sure to burn off your excess reserves at the end of the day. Just a thought, but are all Ardent's Alethi? If I were a Kandra, I'd disguise as whatever race was not already present and imitate them. WoB says that most Rosharan's are super racist, and they often have a harder time picking on the subtle differences between people of different races, so you could potentially have an easier time of it. If you pick a people who speak a different language then it becomes even easier, because it'll explain away your likely weak command of the language. This would still take years to do (mainly to learn a basic competence in the language) but it could potentially be easier this way. Alternatively, just disguise as a horse or Parshmen and nick it when you get the chance. You can work out the mechanics later, and every lost soulcaster cripples the Alethi infrastructure. Honestly, I kind of suspect this too. One of the questions I desperately want to ask Brandon is if a Coinshot could push on objects if he was in Shardplate. The chances of this happening are unlikely enough that he may answer.
  15. They can't be everywhere for an entire war, but they can certainly be everywhere for a battle. It's important to remember how absurdly mobile Coinshots are compared to a medieval army, and their area of influence is pretty massive. I admit that their influence is reduced as the size of the warfront increases, but the same could be said of Shards and fabrials. Long range arrow fire is robbed of a lot of its force during flight, and their actual momentum is quite small by arrival. I don't see why Coinshots couldn't just push the arrows back passed their own front line. Again, I don't think this would work perfectly every time, but it would render Rosharan ranged weaponry nearly useless. Alternatively, I would actually use Lurchers for this role. Basically, you set up a massive pile of hay or something in front of a strong backing, set a Lurcher behind them and safely pull the arrows into it. This would be the safest and easiest way to go about it for a large battle, assuming you have any prep time. Yep, I'm familiar with that WoB. I assume you'd have to use a literal cannon shot to do it, but Coinshot physics is honestly absurd if you do the math. They're capable of generating force far greater than even modern handheld weaponry. That's why I compared it to something more like cannon fire, which is going to be much more effective. I admit I'm doing a lot of guess work there, but it's all based on feats we've seen in books, and I think I was conservative enough with my numbers for it to be plausible. Basically, barring some unknown magic rule about Plate that says it can always take two hits before breaking, then I see no reason why a Coinshot couldn't do it if a person with a hammer can. They don't have to take their ammo with them when fleeing or repositioning. Would be a far better use of personnel to have the regular troops set up caches of ammunition in advance, and cart more ammo in the new firing position. Better to leave a bunch of scrap metal than risk your wizards, or waste their time. I basically don't disagree with your points here: Plate would be a long term goal. I do have some nitpicks about stealing Plate though. I think you're underestimating a Mistborn or Inquisitor's ability to perform a smash and grab. Tin let's them see perfectly at night, when Alethi scouts are basically blind and would have a hard time spotting something that is, you know, basically flying into their camp. Escaping is as simple as throwing the Plate in a chain net and hauling it behinds you via Ironpull as you Steelpush away. We basically saw Kelsier do something similar in the first book with a safe. Thing is, stealing the Blades is arguably far, far more important, and much more easily accomplished. Plate without a Blade is basically just a very well trained Koloss. Okay, I'm underselling Plate a lot here, but you get my point. It robs them of their incredible killing power and the one real weapon that Allomancers can't push on. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true. A Mistborn or Inquisitor with a Shardblade is something closer to Kaladin or Szeth, minus the skill with weaponry, and you do not have to bond with a Blade to kill with it (although I am now amused by the idea of someone accidentally bonding with a Blade and then losing it because they can't summon it). They would be able to do incredible things with that increase in offensive power. I'm basically assuming they'll never get soulcasters working without the war going on for years, with Kandra infiltrating to learn their secrets and steal them. They seem much more complicated. So yeah, I basically agree with this in relation to everything except Blades, but I also feel that Blades are by far the most important and fairly easy to acquire.