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440 Ghostblood

About Starla

  1. Maybe Kaladin will finally embrace Lirin's words that he does not need to kill to protect. He puts down the spear and takes up the flute, becoming a symbol for peaceful nonviolence. I personally would love to see him move in this direction. And if he can't find Hoid's flute, perhaps Syl can take the shape of one.
  2. Adolin is similar to Lift and Lopen for me. The story could progress without them, but it might feel too heavy if they weren't around to brighten the mood a bit. They face everything with a smile and a joke and nothing seems to perturb them, which provides a good contrast to all of the other flawed and broken characters in the story. I like having a little brightness within my tales of impending doom and destruction.
  3. One of my biggest hair-pulling moments in part 3 of WOR was when Kaladin told Syl he was ready to tell Dalinar he was a Radiant. Then in walks Dalinar to announce Amaram, complete with ugly yellow superhero cloak, as the new leader of the Knights Radiant. This happens after Kaladin has told Dalinar that Amaram killed his squad and made him a slave. He hasn't heard anything back from Dalinar about his investigation into this claim, so Kaladin must assume that Dalinar doesn't believe or trust him. It makes sense that Kaladin would close up at this point, and my heart sank knowing things would probably go downhill from here. So much for the instant gratification I was longing for. Of course, it made the payoff at the end of the book all the sweeter. As for Kholinar, I agree with others who say they were on a stealth mission, and Kaladin and Shallan can't storm in and proclaim themselves savior of the city. The place is surrounded by Fused who can fly, who are hunting anyone who uses stormlight. Shallan isn't much of a fighter and Kaladin can't take them all by himself. They would have undermined the mission had they revealed themselves.
  4. Great write up @Dreamstorm. I remember when I first read WOK, I thought Adolin might be gay. I wondered if all of his failed, short term relationships with women was due to him trying to live up to what was expected as heir to a princedom, but not having enough interest in women to follow through. I later found out that Sanderson isn’t comfortable in writing main gay characters, so I dropped the idea, but I think it would be an interesting plot development. I certainly would be more interested in reading about a relationship between Adolin and Kaladin than either of them with Shallan. One thing I found interesting while reading WOR was that Adolin was the first person to notice that there was something different about Kaladin. Adolin basically realized Kaladin’s radiant-ness before anyone else outside of Bridge Four, even before Dalinar. It probably began because he was suspicious of Kaladin, and thus watching him closely, but as time went on it changed into a positive appreciation of his abilities. In Oathbringer this evolved into a sense of respect, and even a little awe at times. I like that Adolin was watching Kaladin closely enough to notice these things. At the very least, I hope their bromance continues to develop in future books,. They have a great rapport and their scenes together are a lot of fun to read.
  5. Can you remind me which Wheel of Time relationship is similar to the Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot scenario? I don't recall anything like that.
  6. It’s not clear in the text whether Shallan knows the extent of Kaladin’s feeling for her. Probably not. But right before this scene, she is having a conversation with herself about which man to choose. Radiant says, “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months.” She obviously considers Kaladin a viable option, to the point she is considering breaking it off with Adolin to pursue Kaladin. So either she knows Kaladin has feelings for her, or she is so confident in herself that she thinks she can win him over despite his aloofness. This is another issue that feels disrespectful to Kaladin. I don’t ever see Shallan considering what he might think or feel. She objectifies him as something to be stared at ("I appreciate a nice picture when I see one.”), but never considers how any of her actions or decisions might affect him. At the very least, I would think their friendship would have developed far enough that she would wonder how he might feel about it all. But there is no sign in the text that she considers him at all, aside from what she will get out of it. On a meta level, I also feel the whole love triangle arc disrespects Kaladin as a character. There was no character growth or regression for him as a result of it. He could have been removed from this plotline altogether and his character would be unchanged. It seems that a majority of SA fans are relieved Shallan didn’t choose him, that he would not have been good for her. People often point out why he is bad for her (over-protective, depression, etc). I also see a lot of comments that Kaladin is not ready for a relationship. Perhaps that is true, but is Shallan ready for a relationship? Many people seem to think so, based on how glad folks are that she married Adolin in the end. It makes Kaladin look like the bad relationship choice, and Shallan is better off without him. Personally, I think he’s better off without her, so I’m relieved she didn’t choose him. Perhaps something will happen in a future book that will make the whole thing makes sense (a lot of folks here have made great arguments for this), but until I see that, I wish some other random guy had been used to highlight Shallan’s identity crisis rather than dragging Kaladin into it. But I suppose random guy wouldn't have created as much interest and drama in the readers. Certainly not an 89 page thread. Welcome, and congrats on bravely treading the water here! I don't think Kaladin is like Lin Davar, or that Shallan would make that connection. The only time Kaladin's anger gets triggered is when someone he cares about or is sworn to protect is in danger, or is being harmed or oppressed in some way. Kaladin was wary of Shallan when he first met her because she conned him at their first meeting and stole his boots, and he later thought she was an opportunist out to use or harm Adolin. After he got to know her, he only bantered playfully and was not angry towards her. Lin was the opposite, he harmed people he loved, or in order to hurt those he loved. I've never seen Kaladin do anything like this, or that Shallan would have connected the two in her mind. Now... Shallan did connect Adolin with her father in WOR, when she thought he was being too overprotective. I've never seen Kaladin be overprotective with Shallan. He seems to think she can take care of herself. Adolin also comes around in Oathbringer and realizes the same thing, and teaches her sword fighting. As for why Shallan might be attracted to a broody passionate guy, there is a WOB floating around about how Shallan's true self is quite passionate but she covers it up with the sweet Vorin girl we see in the books. I don't have time to look for the quote right now (stupid work), but it was posted earlier in this thread.
  7. They saw him land and Adolin waved at him. They were in his line of sight, even though he was looking the other way when Adolin waved. Right after this it switched to Kaladin's POV where he was watching them kiss and told Syl "her choice is made." You make a good point about Shallan's masks not being likable. Maybe I'll like her again if and when her true self ever returns.
  8. Argh! This comment by Shallan was the moment that bothered me most about this plot arc. My first thought was that it was a classist statement, similar to her awful "thank you for ranking all women as something equivalent to peasants" comment in Part 1 when Adolin mentioned that Kaladin has a shardblade. I thought she would never stoop so low as a date a darkeyed man. Upon further reflection I took it as her simply not taking responsibility for her own thoughts and actions, and trying to make someone else look bad in order to make herself look better. Whatever reason she said it, it makes Kaladin look like the bad guy, when all he has done is respect Shallan and Adolin's relationship and space. No matter how he felt about her, he always put his personal feelings aside and did not consider acting on them out of his own sense of honor and loyalty. Shallan/Veil is the one who talked about flirting with him, drew pictures of him while she should be working, and who leered openly at him in front of Adolin and everyone. Shallan's comment about "bad taste in men" about someone who clearly likes her, who is a good guy, and has only shown her respect, is a low blow. To make matters worse, right after that comment, she and Adolin make out right in front of him. Shallan has just made a choice over who to spend the rest of her life with. They both know Kaladin likes her and has been respectful of their relationship. Instead of returning his respect by talking to him about it, or at the very least, being discrete about their decision, they decide to "show not tell" that Kaladin is out of the picture. Perhaps I could see Shallan doing this. She is not a very thoughtful person. But I'm surprised Adolin did this. I suppose he wasn't thinking clearly at the moment, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But what if she had chosen Kaladin and went and kissed him in front of Adolin? Not cool. As it stands, I don't like Shallan very much and this moment sealed it for me. I used to love her as a character, and maybe she'll win me back at some point, but as of the end of Oathbringer she's not looking like a very nice person. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.
  9. This scene reminds me of the Sam and Shelob fight in LOTR. If I recall correctly (and I should, since I've watched the movies 10+ times and read the books countless times), Shelob is wedged in a chasm with her legs on either wall, and Sam gets under her with the sword and stabs her from below. The first time I read the chasmfiend fight in WOR, I had a vivid image of this awesome Sam scene in my head.
  10. The Tower is my favorite, but another smaller scene that is vivid in my mind is when Dalinar and Venli are in the vision in Kholinar, and the whole scene begins to crack and fall apart, with Odium light shining through the cracks. Venli is being swept away, but Dalinar is holding his small piece of the vision together, standing strong and unmoving. It's such an amazing description.
  11. I don't think Kaladin is racist. Based on his personal experiences, he hates the oppression the people of lower birth (darkeyes) have been put through at the hands of the noble class (lighteyes). He didn't have a chance to get to know many lighteyed people personally in his early years, aside from Laral, who was his best friend growing up. Now that he is a part-time lighteyes himself, and is hanging around more lighteyes, he is seeing that not all of them are bad. In Oathbringer he is much more open to having lighteyed friends, and doesn't lump them all into together like he used to. I don't see anything in his storyline to prevent him from having a romantic relationship with a lighteyed person. Also, Azure, aka Vivenna, is lighteyed. She is described as having orange eyes in Oathbringer. So that rules her out if you don't want Kaladin to date a lighteyed woman. I also don't see any evidence that Kaladin craves reassurance. He seems pretty self-motivated and self-sufficient to me. Beginning back in childhood, he took the initiative to do things other people did not want or expect him to do, without any outside input. He became a soldier to protect Tien, he became a squad leader to protect kids sent into battle, he lead multiple escape attempts to help his fellow slaves, he took over leadership of Bridge Four and saved their lives, he helped Dalinar and co. at the Tower, he jumped in the ring to help Adolin in his duel, he stood against Graves and Moash to save Elhokar from assassination, he trained the parshmen in Alethkar, he was determined to get to Thaylen City to protect Dalinar, etc. He did all of this own his own without reassurance or outside support, and much was done against the wishes of those around him. To your main point, perhaps Kaladin and Azure could have a relationship. It's not out of the question. Though as a worldhopper, I don't see her staying on Roshar permanently, once her bounty hunting is over. Roshar isn't a very friendly place in a desolation so she may go back home when she's done there.
  12. @wotbibliophile Thank you for your post. I have been thinking something similar. I often see people saying Kaladin would not be good in a relationship, or he is not ready for one, but I don’t see that. Yes, his top priority is protecting people, saving lives, and leading his men, and he puts his heart and soul into that. But why would someone with those attributes not be able to have a relationship? He cares about people, he listens, he has strong emotions and feelings for people. These are qualities that can lead to deep friendships and romantic relationships. Just because he is focused on his role as protector doesn’t mean he can’t have a deep and meaningful relationship with a woman. I see his and Tarah’s relationship as you do. It was working, but for family reasons, she decided to take the scribe job. She had a strong commitment to her family, just as Kaladin had a strong commitment to his men. She knew him well enough to know he would probably not leave his men to come with her. The relationship did not end because of a problem with either of them, and if she had stayed in the war camp, they might have still been together when he became a slave. I do think it would take a certain type of woman to make a good mate for Kaladin. She would need to be strong and independent and not overly needy of his time and attention, and understand his commitment to his work as a radiant and a protector. I've think I've detailed out the qualities of this hypothetical person several times here and in other threads, but I think the ideal person would be another radiant who can work alongside him, probably someone in one of the battle oriented orders who likes to help people. I don't see this person as Shallan. In her current state, I think she would be too needy. Maybe in the future she will be more grounded in herself, but for now I don't think it would work and am relieved her and Kaladin didn't end up together at this stage of their lives. I didn’t get the sense that that one kiss was it. There was this sentence regarding Tarah's beauty... "The more you saw of it— the more you discovered of its natural facets— the more you loved it.” I suppose that could be interpreted a number of ways, and it’s up to our imagination. I think they could find ways to help each other that are healthy. The reason I think he said the wrong thing is that he made it sound like the ability to forget painful experiences was good for her, which it isn’t. But it could be good for him to a degree, because his problem is that he can’t forget. He shouldn’t do it to the unhealthy degree that she does it, but I think it would be a good ability for him to see a repetitive thought, realize it is not good for him, and put it side. She does this by instinct, but he would need to do it intentionally. Likewise, she would need to intentionally take a difficult thought and hold it in her mind for a while, and reflect on it. Kaladin does this automatically, but she would need to work at it. They both would need to let go of the technique before it became unhealthy.
  13. I’m going to pretend like we’re still talking about Kaladin. You make some interesting points. I agree Kaladin is not completely over his mental issues, and probably will never be. Sanderson has said he sees our protagonists' mental issues as “a feature rather than a bug” (I love that), so I think Kaladin’s depression will be an integral part of who he is for the rest of his life. That said, I think he's made significant progress in how he relates to the depression in Oathbringer. Rather than giving into it completely and becoming "the wretch," he sees it for what it is and tries to find ways to deal with it in a healthier way. As he mentions in one of his POVs, the best thing is for him to focus on a task. Getting to Thaylen City to help Dalinar becomes his task while they are in Shadesmar, and it helps keep him focused on something other than the darkness. I don’t think his lack of pursuing Shallan is indicative of a lack of progress. I would have been surprised if he had tried to pursue her. I think it would be out of character. Unlike Syl, he sees Shallan’s causal betrothal to Adolin as a type of oath or commitment, and he wouldn’t betray that. He also respects Adolin and I don’t think he would pursue a woman Adolin cares about. I also don’t see his thoughts about Shallan at the end of the book as a bad thing. Even if he cares about her romantically, she has clearly chosen Adolin, so there’s no reason for him to dwell on the loss and make himself more miserable. He finds the best way he can to let it go (telling himself she reminds him of Tien), and I think that’s a step forward for someone who tends to dwell on things too much. Also, since I haven’t said it in a while and feel the strong urge to say it repeatedly, I’m relieved Kaladin and Shallan didn’t end up together at the end of the book. I thought she should have taken some time to get herself together before making a lifetime commitment to a partner. I wanted her to stand on her own two feet rather than feeling that she needed a man to stabilize her, but alas, it was not to be. Interesting, I had a different take on his mental state at the end. I went back and read his conversation with Teft, and thought it was focused on how they help each other, and none of them have to do this alone. Kaladin says “It doesn’t get easier, Teft. It gets harder, I think, the more you learn about the Words. Fortunately, you do get help. You were mine when I needed it. I’ll be yours.” That's a big purpose for Kaladin, teaching and leading his men. That section ends with the great quote “We lift the bridge together, Teft. And we carry it.” I think going forward Kaladin will be leading the Windrunners and traveling to help groups of people around Roshar. Flying off to help Skar and Drehy at the end is in line with this. I don’t expect to see him to be hanging around Urithiru much in the coming books. I do agree that he needs to deal with his grief for the people he’s lost or failed to protect, and this will be a big focus going forward. Having deep empathy comes with a price, in that you ache for every loss. Eventually this will build up and overwhelm him, like it did in Kholinar. I think this is what he’s facing with the fourth ideal, and why he can't say it yet. He has a ways to go in the “letting go” department. Interestingly, I think Kaladin and Shallan’s way of dealing with trauma could help each other. She pushes bad things away and tries to forget them, while he dwells on bad things and never forgets them. If they could both find some middle way between those two extremes, where he could learn to let go and she could learn to face things, it could help them both. It's all about balance. Kaladin tried to have a conversation with her about this on the ship, but he said the wrong thing, and she shut down, and they ended up worse off than when they started. Oh well.
  14. Thank you! I can talk about Kaladin all day. I'd like to give some thoughts on why I think he made huge progress in this book. I know some folks see his inability to say the fourth oath as a failure, but I see it as a sign of progress and self-awareness. He came very close to it a couple of times, to the point where the windspren gathered around him, and Syl told him he was close when he asked her about it. I'm pretty sure he knows the words. However, he knows himself well enough that he is not ready to say them yet. He learned the hard way in WOR how important his oaths are, and breaking one of his oaths will break his bond and kill Syl. I don't think he will say any oath until he is certain he can embody it 100%. The fact that he knows the ideal, realizes "I'm not ready for this," and decides not say it, is a sign of maturity and self-awareness. We know from one of the epigraphs that the Windrunner fourth ideal is a tough one, and I am excited to see Kaladin's process of working towards it, rather than it coming easily in a moment of need. Compare Kaladin's fourth ideal to the end of WOR when Shallan said her fourth truth. I don't think she was ready for it, and her entire arc in Oathbringer is the fallout from a pre-mature oath. We don't know yet if this has damaged her bond with Pattern (I am one who thinks their bond is fraying throughout Oathbringer), but it has certainly damaged her mental health. I know Pattern was pushing her into that truth at the end of the last book, but ultimately it was her choice and I think she should have said "not yet" if she knew she wasn't ready. Now back to Kaladin... I also think he made great progress with his mental state compared to the previous two books. His prejudice of lighteyes is nearly gone, he has fully embraced being a Knight Radiant, and he was downright chipper in the first three parts of the book. Then Elhokar died. Losing Elhokar and seeing his friends kill each other put a damper on his mood. Even so, he realized he was sinking into depression and tried to figure out how to stop it. I think this is a huge step for him. At one point he says "My emotions are irrational. I’ll try to contain them." During another depressive moment, he has this lovely thought: "He’d come far in the last half year. He seemed a man distant from the one who carried bridges against Parshendi arrows. That man had welcomed death, but now— even on the bad days, when everything was cast in greys— he defied death. It could not have him, for while life was painful, life was also sweet." These are just two of several instances where he questions his own negative thoughts and pulls himself out of his funk. By the time they reach Thaylen City, he is back in kick chull radiant mode and there are no more depressive thoughts for the rest of the book. Finally, during the fight with Amaram we have one of my favorite quotes in all of Stormlight: "Ten spears go to battle and nine shatter. Did that war forge the one that remained? No, Amaram. All the war did was identify the spear that would not break.” Kaladin is referring to himself as the spear that would not break. I think this is his greatest moment of strength in the whole series so far. For so long he felt like he a victim, betrayed by Amaram and other lighteyes, with so much hate and resentment. But here, he is taking responsibility for his own awesomeness. He became a radiant because he was strong, not because of what Amaram did to him. It ties in to the overall theme of personal responsibility in Oathbringer, and is also a nice parallel to Taln, who was the ultimate spear who would not break. So yeah, I think Kaladin had a great arc in Oathbringer! I can't wait to see what happens with him in the next book with his progress as a radiant, and how he handles the conflicts between the humans and Singers. I think he'll play a crucial role in whether the Singers become enemies or allies with humans. I've noticed that Kaladin seems to be moving in a direction of compassionate non-violence over the course of the three books, and I look forward to seeing if he can help bridge the gap between the two species with everyone killing each other. As a pacifist myself, I am looking forward to him offering up some creative peaceful solutions. Whether the other radiants and world leaders will listen is another story. I have a feeling they won't, which will set up some fun conflict.
  15. I think it's related to the Fourth Ideal. He was thinking about it at the time the wind spren showed up: