jamesgrey

That’s a great point, although a simple line from his handlers to Moash like “go hear, stab him in this place and it will kill him and trap his soul. It worked if the gem flashes,” would give him all the intent I think he would need. And godmetals may require less precision in aim. You could also argue that Moash was being influenced by Odium and the Intent was *there*

Yea, my main point is that the dagger itself is likely a hemalurgic spike made of some god metal and st least as important as the flashing gem on the pommel. I had forgotten it was gold though, so I like that idea it is made of Raysium(?)

Hi, a bit of an oddball thought that came to me when reading the new hemalurgic metal table coupled with the fact that we have quotes that “hemalurgy is the magic system with the greatest likelihood of cosmere wide impact” and we know we have seen hemalurgy used elsewhere. For Lerasium and Atium I simplified the table definitions in my mind to “Lerasium can steal everything” and “Atium can steal anything.” Basically, Atium is much more versatile and nuanced (or in other words, it *ruins* the original whole) while Lerasium is much more powerful but broad (in other words, it *preserves* the original by moving everything notable at the same time). Over in Roshar we have had a WOB then when Moash killed Jezrien he prevented his soul from entering the normal herald cycle of rebirth (seemingly by sealing it in that gem). That also felt to me a bit like a hemalurgic trick although focused on his spiritual and cognitive being rather than a specific investiture power. After this table, my nutjob theory is that the dagger moash used was made of Lerasium or some similar god metal and it basically stole “everything” that is Jezrien and put it into that gem rather than another body. My even crazier theory is does that mean that someone with that dagger could (if aimed properly) implant Jezrien, fully, in another body?

Cald and Aem, you're both right, he definitely leaves it intentionally ambiguous, I know of no quotes beyond what you said. But given "there's always another secret," I expect the grand plan involves more than just Adolnasium as the be-all end-all of realized power. Just my opinion though, no data beyond what you guys have pointed out.

I don't think "Shards/Holders have no free will" is exactly accurate. Although they are certainly to a great extent (and some more than others) shaped by the original Intent and their interpretation of it, I think we do actually see shades of gray in interpretation. While I agree we won't see a Mistborn scenario on Roshar, because it would feel rehashed and it doesn't feel nearly impactful enough on all the different story threads, the fundamental moment that kickstarted the Cosmere story that Brandon is writing began with the shattering of Adolnasium. That's why it is going to be so damnation long until we get Dragonsteel and anything else pre-shattering. The Cosmere to me is a study in the conflict between impartial divine power (perhaps that could have described Adolnasium with all Intents well balanced), the dangers of the opposite (rash mortals wielding divine power), and the mortals caught in the fray. The Shards did not create (most) of the mortal races that we know of, but they are still invested creatures with presence in all 3 Realms, and the story of pulling things together and splitting them apart is the pivotal axis of the Cosmere. The re-accumulation of disfuse shardic power from Honor seems like it must be a major factor in the arc of Roshar, both to give us a compelling end to the First 5, but also to set up whatever the prime evil(s) is of the back 5 and the later space-age Cosmere stories. The only things we directly know of so far that can really shape such grand events are Shards, or mortals wielding significant shard-derived power. We do also know that ancient adolnasium has a force serving in opposition to him and we also know that a God Beyond (of some kind) exists--we also don't know if those are the same thing, separate things or just the tip of the iceberg of greater-than-shard entities. TLDR: I would accept a reconstitution of Honor as an intermediate victory, milestone (honestly, just like it really was in Mistborn), but it won't be the end of the story, or the end of antagonists (again, just like it was in Mistborn). Shards are HUGE deals, but they are not the end game of the Cosmere, imo.

"I will not let those I can't save prevent me from saving those I can" was what I was thinking

Thank you for summarizing my theory better than I did!

This definitely doesn't hurt the theory I posited a bit ago about Tanavast either...

Thanks, appreciate the thoughtful response. I see the problems with regard to the Heralds, so I'm willing to accept if there is a long game here they are either not in the loop or were intentionally driven (temporarily?) made as a result of the shattering of the Pact in order to prevent them from spilling the plan. If the latter is true.. man what a sacrifice. On Odium leaving Threnody, I think it's not clear if Ambition or Odium decided to move their battle out of Threnodite system, or if it was a stalemate and it picked up elsewhere. My personal belief, is that Ambition was winning and so Odium left to fight again another day. Ambition (being literally influecned by his intent), may have sought to pursue Odium which would have left him weaker if he had investiture tied up in the Threnodite system and Odium was still whole. If that was the case, if we give more credit to Odium, maybe he feigned more weakness than he had to provoke exactly such an ambitious response. Not sure on any of this, but it has me thinking.

I was reading through the excellent WoB Reddit compilation done by Pagerunner over in the Event and Signings forum yesterday. There was so much there I had missed, and I fixated on a ton of it. The thing I've though the most about is probably the least substantiated but I wanted to throw it out anyways. It all stems from this question: Q: At any point did Tanavast relinquish the power of Honor to someone else A: RAFO Obviously, anything read into an RAFO is already on rocky ground, but bare with me. This really got me thinking about how Odium shatters Shards, what we know about those, and what we learned about the process and requirements for ascension in Mistborn. 1. In Mistborn we learn how important it is to have a connection to the power of a shard in order to become its holder, whether that is built up over time, or artificially created as Kelsier was able to do. 2. We also know from WoB that Odium killed the holders or Dominion and Devotion AND shattered their shards. The way it was written did not imply necessarily that the same action was used for both, and I actually think that taking direct action against a Shard (not its holder), might be impossible unless it is 'free.' So, if that were the case, Odium would have had to kill the holders first, wait for the Shard to 'drop,' and then shatter it. Considering what we know about connection allowing you to assume a Shard, part of the reason for that might be that even if Odium could "shatter" a Shard's power while it was being held, a Holder would be well connected to it to assemble pieces. So, What if Odium "shattering" a shard is actually much less complex than we may have thought it to be--it's literally just breaking the shards power up into an assortment of random smaller, ineffectual pieces--and the reason it is "permanent" is that no Holder exists who can recall the powers full shape and pull it together. 3. This is what I thought about when I read the question above. Given that Tanavast, much like preservation, seems to be playing a long game (the Oathpact, leaving the dreams for someone like Dalinar, etc.), I expect he would have been very concerned that what happened to Devotion and Dominion may happen to him. He may have realized that Odium's method relied on their being no one capable of reassembling a shattered shard, which perhaps is something only someone who has held it could do. So, here's the theory: At some point post-shattering of Dominion and Dev, Tanavast set up a long-game plan for defeating Odium. He voluntarily gave his power to someone capable of ascending but also 'Honorable' enough to give it back. In doing so, he created a Sliver with a strong connection to the fully intact Honor Shard. Then, when Odium came to Roshar, Tanavast concocted this entire "campaign" with the Oathpact, etc. in order to convince Odium that this was the real battle. And then... he let Odium win by sacrificing something/luring him into the gambit that has trapped him in the Roshar system. Meanwhile, some secret order, maybe colluding with Cultivation, or perhaps even a secret instruction to one of the Heralds (Taln seems the obvious choice given his prominence as a viewpoint character), is guarding the secret Sliver of Honor. Then once Odium has committed again, thinking he is only fighting fragments of Honor's power and Cultivation, the Sliver can ascend and truly challenge him while he is bound to Roshar. This also works with a potential reading of why Odium did not Shatter Ambition in the Threndoite system--but elsewhere. If the fight was not going well, one side likely fled and was chased elsewhere where the battle resumed. What if part of the value to Odium of not heavily investing in planets was his ability to remain mobile. Tanavast has now limited that, and if a secret Sliver exist, potentially forced Odium into an eventual fight against Two Full Shards aware of his tricks. This has enough but not inordinate parallels to Mistborn, and also speaks to the fact that since all of the original 16 knew each other, some of them should have been able to figure out how Rayse thinks and build a counter strategy. I realize this is a huge stretch and probably crazy but I couldn't stop thinking about it after I read that question so to the forums it goes.

I think part of my struggle with Vasher her killing her "purely to stop the knowledge" is that that colors Shashara as such a one-dimensional character. Someone that Vasher could fall in love with seems unlikely to be someone that couldn't see reason, greater good, etc. Brandon rarely writes such simple characters. We've seen no evidence that a sufficient quantity of regular breaths couldn't keep a Returned going without their Divine Breath (yay theory). And in fact, a Divine Breath only takes you to an intermediate heightening automatically. With substantially more than that via breaths, which Shashara clearly had, I wouldn't be shocked to discover that her own pool of investiture (those breaths) could similarly take sentience and keep her moving even if her Divine Breath was lost. This also speaks to the parallels between Honor Blades and Nightblood. We know that Honor Blades are splinters which implies a level of Shard investiture that is very explicit. A Divine breath would accomplish that. I'm not 100% on this theory, but I think it has legs. Every other Returned we know of who gave up their divine breath only had their one-a-week ration aside from that. We don't really know what would happen if a returned with 20,000 breaths lost their divine breath. That's ALOT of investiture to just vanish.

So, while the recent Shardcast podcast was discussing how Nightblood was created the idea that divine breaths were involved was brought up. The team rightly brought up that 1,000 divine breaths would be a lot (maybe even beyond the "very hard" requirements that are discussed). Yet I think there is something to the divine breath theory. For some reason this drew me back to the idea that Vasher had to kill Shashara to stop the creation of any additional weapons. I've always considered the divine breath to be a Endowment-invested version of someone's cognitive or spiritual essence (basically a souped up version of their soul). As such, I consider the divine breath to be the vehicle by which the Returned continue to exist and also the vehicle for their sentience (which is living on borrowed time and would otherwise be drawn to the Beyond). I'm also, maybe faultily assuming that the group of Scholars (Vasher, Yesteel, Denth, Shashara) were all returned. We certainly know that's true for 2 of them at a minimum. Now consider that when Awakeners invest objects the amount of breaths needed is dependent on the command. Over time they may learn that "protect me" to a cloak takes X number of breaths but it doesn't seem like that's obvious without experimentation. So, perhaps Shashara didn't know that it took 1000 breaths to create Nightblood until she did it since it was the first of its kind. And perhaps in addition to the 1000 regular breaths she told Vasher about, she didn't notice that it also took her divine breath. That would explain why Nightblood is so invested (has a divine breath which is a direct investiture from Endowment). It also might explain whatever unexplained change of heart that made Shashara so committed to making more weapons that Vasher had to kill his lover. It seems unlikely that he would have killed her just to 'kill the knowledge' unless she clearly had the intent of making more. What if, by inadvertently investing her Divine Breath in Nightblood, she lost the part of her that made her "her" and became less willing to listen and be tempered by Vasher. My two cents (and first post)

So, while the podcast was discussing how Nightblood was created the idea that divine breaths were involved was brought up. The team rightly brought up that 1,000 divine breaths would be a lot (maybe even beyond the "very hard" requirements that are discussed). Yet I think there is something to the divine breath theory. For some reason this drew me back to the idea that Vasher had to kill Shashara to stop the creation of any additional weapons. I've always considered the divine breath to be a Endowment-invested version of someone's cognitive or spiritual essence (basically a souped up version of their soul). As such, I consider the divine breath to be the vehicle by which the Returned continue to exist and also the vehicle for their sentience (which is living on borrowed time and would otherwise be drawn to the Beyond). I'm also, maybe faultily assuming that the group of Scholars (Vasher, Yesteel, Denth, Shashara) were all returned. We certainly know that's true for 2 of them at a minimum. Now consider that when Awakeners invest objects the amount of breaths needed is dependent on the command. Over time they may learn that "protect me" to a cloak takes X number of breaths but it doesn't seem like that's obvious without experimentation. So, perhaps Shashara didn't know that it took 1000 breaths to create Nightblood until she did it since it was the first of its kind. And perhaps in addition to the 1000 regular breaths she told Vasher about, she didn't notice that it also took her divine breath. That would explain why Nightblood is so invested (has a divine breath which is a direct investiture from Endowment). It also might explain whatever unexplained change of heart that made Shashara so committed to making more weapons that Vasher had to kill his lover. It seems unlikely that he would have killed her just to 'kill the knowledge' unless she clearly had the intent of making more. What if, by inadvertently investing her Divine Breath in Nightblood, she lost the part of her that made her "her" and became less willing to listen and be tempered by Vasher. My two cents.