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Ookla the Indefatigable

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Ookla the Indefatigable last won the day on May 12

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About Ookla the Indefatigable

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    Stop assuming we know so much about Autonomy
  • Birthday June 17

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  1. Well, Sovereign is looking for evidence. Please link the WoB if you found it. That's what this thread is for
  2. That is correct.
  3. What?
  4. @echaozh except that all islands of Pantheon are dangerous; since perpendicularity is on one of them, it's dangerous to go through it. And really, even if it was designed specifically that way, the wording implies hiding from other worlds - one way is to make the place hard to access. I don't see how that implies Autonomy. No, they were tested before joining the Diem; the ranks were assigned based on their power and ability. What dangerous tests? And please remember that you are confusing what people do with the Shard that resides there - clearly, Mistborn must be of Ruin, since they are such great warriors. By the way, I don't see how testing fits Autonomy - if anything, it fits Ambition. Autonomy would not care for whether they can or not, it'd just let them do it all on their own. Ambition would be the one to test your drive.
  5. False. It's because the island the perpendicularity is on is a death trap. Taldain is hard to access because Autonomy wants to isolate. I can't see this as a valid argument - you could very well argue that Selish perpendicularities are almost lethaly dangerous to access, so it has similarities to the one on the First of the Sun. Or that Threnody is harder to access due to unpredictable, unstable perpendicularities. Doubt it - Aimians after all refer to themselvesas "I", since they're a single consciousness in many bodies; a collective mind is something else, it refers to the group of beings who are are linked.
  6. Or Decay, as it was first called in - IIRC - Aether.
  7. OOKLA THE @Quiver HAS RETURNED! So much stuff happened since I last saw you! I gained Arcanist rank... like last month, so that's for stupidly fresh... And then I went on a journey of theorycrafting... and now you're back!
  8. No need. I think that if many of the Unmade can be sentient and sapient, or Nightwatcher, or Stormfather (all these without a bond), then theoretically so can Ambition Splinters.
  9. There's also my "Explaining Cosmere to casual fans" meme
  10. You realize I have that WoB up there?
  11. Some responses for you all! I'm not saying you're wrong, just that I understand his suffering if interference refers to Hoid's meddling with the Shards. That quote you cited about the pact is from a separate letter, not the one in question, so There's nothing Linking the two statements. I think it's very clear that the writer of the Second is refering to the pact that was mentioned in the quote from the First I brought up. I know that what I quoted is from the first Letter, it was my intention to show the link. Which fits exactly with what Khriss notes in the Arcanum Unbounded section on Taldain. Autonomy wants to meddle while being left alone. I'm a little confused because you don't seem to address the point I'm making here. The writer of the Second Letter wishes to be left alone and refuses to interfere at all. Meanwhile Autonomy is very active with interfering with other Shards. That's the thing - all that craziness about Bavadin comes from that single WoB. Which - in my opinion - was misinterpreted and then some theories got popular and now people think Bavadin is a hive mind. (that's why my user title is what it is) There are two other WoBs tangentially related to it: So, basically we know that Bavadin has mutliple religions in which he is worshipped, and that she can choose how to appear (not really surprising for a Shard). Okay. The WoB in question: For me the wording is very clearly indicating that Bavadin can choose how to appear and utilises it - hence the bit about "for one purpose or another" - and that Bavadin prefers to let his masks gather attention. Not unlike Shallan or Wayne, who adopt an act, down to the specific mindset, for some purpose (granted, Shallan has problems on top of that). Nothing here indicates that Bavadin is not a single being. I mostly agree with points Calderis made. Also - if there is a CS of Uli Da - it's possible only one Splinter has it, or perhaps they divided it. It's one thing for a living being to split itself, it's a whole another thing to split an imprint left behind in Investiture. I meant "fan favorite" as in "favorite theory for the identity of the writer of the Letter" Eh, do we? I only found WoBs that Bavadin has multiple religions, some of which have pantheons where every god is her. Claiming that Autonomy's MO is hijacking religions is a whole another step. It's a theory, not an unreasonable one, but not a fact. I agree with Calderis' response. Another option is that Ambition managed to flee, or that Odium was sure it's dead and had more pressing matters to attend to... who knows. That would be the thing - that Hoid foolishly presumes upon relationship with Uli Da, who is no more. I think he's fine with any help he can get - and in my theory it's not just a tiny Splinter, it's a interlinked net of very big Splinters (on similar level as Stormfather, or even bigger). The first WoB I quoted stated that all three Letters are from Shards. I doubt Brandon would say that if it was someone speaking on behalf of the Shard. Not necessarily, as I have explained up there: Also, This WoB confirms nothing. "In any way" and "you could say that" means very little: When Brandon says stuff like that, it's usually him wiggling out of something. Whew, that was long!
  12. The writer of the Letter does not want to do any interference. "We need not suffer interference of another" - refers the pact that Shards formed: Autonomy violates this left and right. It does not fit the writer. I disagree. Preservation wanted to protect people - Rashek executed them, yet Leras still admired his resistance to change. (I actually explained it in OP) Just read up a bit: Because it clearly says "has often appeared as male for one purpose or another". Which means one person, choosing how to appear, for some purpose. Donning a mask, or persona, to act. Not splitting itself into some hivemind. That's how I read that, anyway People are blowing up this persona thing out of proportion while there is not much to go off - even the core WoB for that actually goes against this split mind thing. If Ambition is writing the letter after having reformed sentience from the Splinters after Odium's attack, then there should be no past relationship between the newly sentient shard of Ambition and Hoid. The Shard should not be addressing Hoid as Cephandrius or reference the First Gem, as those events would pre-date awakening into sentience. It just doesn't seem to work. This is very simple - Uli Da surely would have left a Cognitive Shadow (fitting for a Vessel of Ambition to survive even beyond death) with the Shard (similarly Stormfather has merged with Honor's/Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow). Even without CS seeing past is far more simple than seeing the future (a thing a lot of Shards are at least moderately good at) - you just need to read past Connections.
  13. Just a clarification: are you going off with these personas things based on this WoB? Because it clearly says "has often appeared as male for one purpose or another". Which means one person, choosing how to appear, for some purpose. Donning a mask, or persona, to act. Not splitting itself into some hivemind. That's how I read that, anyway I'm not sure what you mean? We don't have a lot of experience with Splintered Shards; Devotion and Dominion were stuffed into Cognitive Realm. Honor had spren which acted like a release valve. Who knows what else can happen with Splinters?
  14. Preface: The most part of it is solidly grounded in facts and WoBs. You can rely on it. Some part of it is reasonable speculation, so you should not treat is as a fact, but like a theory. Sorry it's so long. The Letters. The one in The Way of Kings was written by Hoid to Frost (WoB), and the one in Words of Radiance was Frost's response to Hoid. The Letters are written after events of First Mistborn Era (WoB). In Oathbringer we got three: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters#Oathbringer_Letters What can we conclude about the identities of the writers and recipient? Well, the first thing is that two of them are adressed to Cephandrius - known as Hoid's alias - and the Third to "Dear Friend", but it's commonly assumed it's also adressed to Hoid. The Third writer almost certainly is Harmony. But my interests are in the First and Second. First, some WoBs on the topic: What are the Shards we have seen or know of? Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Harmony - Ruin & Preservation (Vessel: Sazed) Endowment (Vessel: Edgli) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Odium (Vessel: Rayse) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) The last two are questionable, as Brandon may be refering to the knowledge from books and not necessarily from WoBs. But then we have another WoB that will help us narrow down the identity of the first writer: What are the worlds we have seen? Taldain Sel Scadrial Nalthis Roshar (depending on how you understand "have seen" - also Ashyn and Braize) Threnody First of the Sun Well, this excludes Shard not on a planet and possibly Ambition, as Ambition is not on Threnody. I also doubt the Shard that is hiding is on the First of the Sun, but we'll get to that later. With Harmony having written the Third and the First Letter mentioning Rayse, Aona, Skai and Uli Da by name, we're left with: Autonomy Endowment Honor (dead and Splintered) Cultivation Judging by the fact that the Letter is supposedly a response for Hoid's plea for help against Rayse and that the writer is dissapointed that so few of the Shards kept to the agreement of not interfering with each other, we can also remove Cultivation. Which leaves us with two possible candidates: Autonomy Endowment If we believe Khriss words in Taldain essay about Autonomy's interference with other planets, it leaves us with Endowment as having written the First Letter. The Third Letter is written almost certainly by Harmony (I say that just because Brandon did not outright confirm that in a WoB but I doubt it's not Harmony). Second Letter So we need to update our list of who might have written the Second Letter. It also mentions Rayse, so we can cross out Odium: Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) Well, that's still a lot, isn't it? Well, let's assume that these Letters are really responses to Hoid's plea for help against Odium. It doesn't make sense then that he'd write to Rosharan Shards. We can cross out Cultivation and Honor (who is also very, very, very dead at the time of Oathbringer). The Letter in The Way of Kings also mentions Aona and Skai being dead and their Shards Splintered, so I think we can reasonably assume nobody has Ascended to them since. Which leaves us with... Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) At that point there is no much to go off of - unless we assume Brandon in that first WoB up there at the beginning of this wall of text meant the Shards we know from books, not WoBs. Which leaves us with only two: Autonomy and Ambition. I'm gonna analyse each separately. But first, a WoB on the topic: The line "That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic." probably refers to an earlier WoB in that event which confirmed that all Investiture in Cosmere is associated with a Shard, even if it was not on Yolen on the time of the Shattering. It got assigned to Shards, but it's not part of what the Vessel of the Shard commands. Two important things that we can take from this WoB: First of the Sun has Investiture that is directly associated with a Shard and the island Patji is a Shard. With big asterisk. one of the letters in Oathbringer references First of the Sun Reading through the letters, the only one left that can reference any place is the Second Letter. (Unless we take " I noticed your many intrusions into my land " from the First Letter as reference to First of the Sun, but that's another can of worms, one I do not intend to open). It's either the place the writer is or the Obrodai that's being referenced. For now, let's analyse possibilities of Autonomy and Ambition. Autonomy Certainly a fan favorite, if I may say so. Many of us believe it's Autonomy, and there are certain clues that point to it, although some of that fierce conviction seems to be based on the assumption that the Shard assaulting Scadrial during the Second Mistborn Era is Autonomy. Not an unreasonable assumption, given what we know of Autonomy meddling with other worlds (if Khriss essay on Taldain is to be believed), having multiple religions or having entire pantheons where every worshipped god is actually Bavadin. Especially the last one seems to point in that direction, when you remember that the islands that Patji is part of are called Pantheon. Some people believe that Autonomy's modus operandi of creating personas is the reason for why the Letter is written by a collective. It's reasonable, but personally I doubt it - there's one thing in crafting personas and letting them attract attention, but it's not a reason for Autonomy to actually be a mind collective. Which leads us to... Ambition That is my favorite. Yes, Uli Da is dead, and Ambition is Splintered (WoB). But... Splintering can be a vague term sometimes. And we've seen Ambition's influence (which most of us ascribe to Shades of Threnody) and things that happened with Ambition have had ramifications across many places in the cosmere. Recently Brandon added that "this specific Splintering has had far-reaching effects" (WoB). From essay on First of the Sun we know Khriss is certain there is no Shard there... but her essays are more contemporary (sometime after Ascension of Harmony, and definitely long before Sixth of the Dusk happens: #1 #2) and she does not know what we know about First of the Sun: #1 #2. That is weird: ... since now Brandon has stated that Patji is a Shard. (With big asterisk). Hm... What if Ambition is not on a planet... what if it's on planets? What if Ambition's Splinters - maybe larger than the usual Splinters like spren or seons or skaze, but instead massive like Unmade, Nightwatcher or even Stormfather - have formed a collective mind? It would explain why the writer is speaking like a group. Let's see what is said in the Letter: It implies mutliple beings. They are hiding part of their being on a world and were surprised and are intrigued how Hoid has managed to locate them there. It would explain why Khriss is certain there is no Shard there - there is just a Splinter and it actively hides its presence. They have many realms. They wish to be alone. They do not believe in interfering with another Shards - does it fit the meddling Autonomy? I don't think so. Admiration of his initiative - it would be strange if it's Ambition, right? Since Odium has mortally wounded Ambition. But... Preservation admired Rashek just because he did not change. Even though he was a tyrant and responsible for many deaths, it was a quality to be admired. Why then cannot Ambition admire Odium's initiative and will to act? They have claimed a world - for me it fits Ambition to claim multiple worlds, to add it to their many realms. If it was Autonomy, why an avatar is beginning to manifest? Autonomy's personas are more of a masks Bavadin dons. And the new avatar was instilled with some preference - it suggests truly another mind, part of Ambition's collective, and not just a persona Autonomy uses. This reeks of Ambition to me - for Hoid to be deemed worthy of further communication, he must prove himself by overcoming tests (perhaps getting to Patji's eye?). It's only fitting that one can earn Ambition's respect by overcoming obstacles - it's a proof of your determination, will to act, drive... ambition. tl;dr: Harmony almost certainly wrote the Third Letter, the First one was written likely by Endowment and Second Letter was written either by Autonomy or Ambition (and I personally think the latter).
  15. That's what I saw after firing up the Facebook: Stormfather gets on with the times, it seems. Now I'm waiting for random text messages with "Unite them!"...