• Announcements

    • Chaos

      Oathbringer Spoiler Policy   11/13/2017

      Oathbringer is out! Let's make our policy on spoilers clear! 1. You must preface topics with Oathbringer spoilers with the prefix [OB] in the front 2. You are only allowed to post spoilers and spoiler topics in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board, Cosmere Theories, and some select work-related forums. 3. For posts in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board you do not need to use spoiler tags inside a topic marked [OB]. For Cosmere Theories, you also do not need to put spoiler tags inside your topic if the topic has [OB] in the title. However, for Cosmere Theories, if you are adding Oathbringer stuff to an old theory without the [OB] tag, those must go in spoiler tags and you must make it obvious outside the spoiler tag that the spoiler is regarding Oathbringer content. 4. For select things that do require talking about OB spoilers, in Events, Coppermind, and Arcanum forums, those are allowed but keep OB spoilers in spoiler tags 5. Avoid and minimize spoilers in topic titles--even though those two boards will not appear in the Recent Topics ticker, topic titles still appear in Recent Activity and the forum home.  6. You aren't allowed to post Oathbringer spoilers in places other than listed, even with spoiler tags.  It will be nine months and then the Oathbringer board will be re-merged with the Stormlight board and you will not need to tag these spoilers. If you'd like to move something in the Stormlight Archive board to the Oathbringer board, to update it with new Oathbringer information, Report the post and we will happily move it to the Oathbringer spoiler board. Part-by-part Reactions Though the Oathbringer Spoiler Board will be very spoilery, very fast (maybe don't come there until you've read the book, as people do have copies that bookstores sold early), you'll have these five topics for reactions if you want to nerd out: Part 1 Reactions
      Part 2 Reactions
      Part 3 Reactions
      Part 4 Reactions
      Full Book Reactions For parts 1-4, they will not include the interludes immediately following it. On Discord All Oathbringer spoilers on Discord will be exclusively in the #oathbringer_spoilers channel for the nine month spoiler period and nowhere else.


  • Content count

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


maxal last won the day on December 2

maxal had the most liked content!

Community Reputation

3,573 Lerasium Mistborn

About maxal

  • Birthday February 12

Profile Information

  • Gender
  • Location
    Montreal, Canada

Recent Profile Visitors

9,342 profile views
  1. I responded to a great many posts painting Adolin into a very negative light, some of these posts even stated how he would become another Blackthorn if he weren't restraining himself. Also, there was a strong insistence he is an immoral individual, many posts even claiming each and every one of this actions were done for selfish reasons, using his lack of viewpoints to justify giving him very negative intentions when it is my perspective everything in the textual highlights the opposite. Maybe some of those posts were your own, maybe they weren't. When a thread is as active as this one, it is virtually impossible, for myself, to go back and quote each and every single posts which I want to answer. As such, I will generally take a big one and refer to it. None of it is meant to be personal nor targeted towards anyone, I tend to respond at large. I quoted your post because you have been one of those arguing in favor of Adolin having sociopathic behavior: I did not mean to infer you personally said he was a sociopath, but I felt some posts were arguing for it. Some of the posts I have read go far beyond "the good people do bad things", it went as far as to claim Adolin is repressing his vile evil side which is just waiting to shine, so apologies if I tend to respond to those posts to the best of my ability. They may not have been yours, so if you feel targeted in a personal manner, then apologies again, none of it was meant towards you specifically, as a person, but towards a great many people more or less inferring the same things. I also consider the difference in between a sociopath and a vile human being to be negligible: a sociopath is, by definition, a vile human being or at least it is to me. The term itself itself is highly negative and when used, then backlash is to be expected. I can agree to disagree with you, but I cannot agree the words "Adolin" and "sociopath" or "sociopathic behavior" belong within the same sentence. I have made my stance very clear, apologies for it being so badly received. If you feel someone is misunderstand you or misquoting you, the better approach is to explain why and how it happened. Unfortunately, the downside of very long posts is people may not have the capacity nor the time to answer them fully: I made it very clear within my last post I knew my response was under-whelming, but I did not have the time to write a better one. I was very honest with this. I also made it clear I felt the discussion was going in circles and, as such, I expressed the desire, in all respect, to move out of it. I disliked some of the arguments being used and as such, I have decided to leave them as is and move onto more productive discussions. I however do not take it kindly to be quoted in such way, accused of having badly responded, being obtuse or any synonyms befitting the conversation. I especially cannot shake the feeling I am interjected in such way due to my disagreement with the leading opinion within this thread as if myself not agreeing with you meant I wasn't misinterpreting you. As such, I have decided I did not have any new to add to it nor any valid contribution to make. I have stated my points, others are willing to like it, to hate it, to take it or to leave it. I will thus leave you to discuss among yourselves, my contribution not benefiting the general conversation. None of it meant towards you or anyone, just a statement on a conversation I feel I no longer contribute in ways which are appreciated nor in-sync with the general ambiance.
  2. I will not quote the entirety of your posts, I will however say I wish to move out of the "Adolin is immoral" discussion as I feel everything has been said onto the matter. My stance is firm and, for the shake the argument, I will briefly resume it here. We have WoB evidence, in-world evidence, numerous quotes which strongly imply Adolin's actions aren't against the morality within Roshar. We also have WoB evidence, in-world-evidence Adolin's actions are completely illegal as many people would consider Sadeas offered him a challenge which was rightly responded to. As such, stating Adolin is an immoral individual with sociopathic tendencies on the virtue he killed one man while falling to feel properly ashamed is pushing the character analysis beyond what I perceive the written text is conveying. Whether or not we personally find Adolin's action immoral is irrelevant as Adolin isn't evolving within our modern day world: he is an Alethi man, a trained career soldier having grown-up in a world where murder is not seen within the same light as it is within our own world. Dalinar, Gavilar, Sadeas multiplied the ploys to murder their opponents for no other reasons than their personal advancement and Alethkar is relatively fine with their proceeding. I cannot conceive why Adolin is held to a different standard in being considered a vile human being for his stabbing on a man having been presented as the greatest villain within the story. Sadeas had no redeeming quality, he professed there was absolutely nothing Adolin could do to stop him from killing his father, his cousin, destroy his family and his princedom. As someone else put it, his back was set against the wall and despite opinions of the contrary, I firmly believe he had no had other viable options. I have been within those discussions for four years and one of my greatest regrets is saying how Oathbringer brought no closure on this specific arc. As always, there are readers being firmly convinced there were other options, but Adolin was too enraged, his desire to kill Sadeas, too long suppressed, was too strong for him to be bothered to think about them. I strongly disagree with this analysis as I do feel the textual has provided enough evidence there was no legal options to deal with Sadeas, not ones having no cost the Kholin princedom is not able to afford (civil war). People will usually barge in, at this stage, to claim they could have trialed Sadeas or send assassins, but my take is the textual showed us it was impossible for them to do the former and the later is not considered a moral valid solution. Alethi like to do their killing in plain sight, using assassins is not considered acceptable: Brandon himself has confirmed such was the morality in Alethkar. The fact a few individuals such as Sadeas or Jasnah are willing to employ such means merely means they aren't highly moral individuals and/or they won't be bothered by what is proper. It is however clear neither Dalinar, Navani nor Adolin consider assassination as a solution, I thus do not comprehend why Adolin should have thought of it. By all means, his stabbing of Sadeas is probably better seen and less damaging to the Kholin household then being known for having send an assassin: of course this last bit is myself speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised to be right. On the matter of Adolin having a suppressed Blackthorn sleeping inside him: just plain no. He has never shown anything but care and concern towards his soldiers, he openly dislike the killing, being forced to kill Alethi doesn't settle well with him and he has a moment where he is ill-at-ease with the carnage he is causing. There are reasons why he set himself to fight the thunderclast instead of mere soldiers even if the textual doesn't highlight it. Adolin also has a moment of weakness, back in Narack, as he couldn't be the war machine the combat demanded of him. As such, the idea Adolin may turn into another Dalinar by hacking through his own soldiers or torching a whole city filled with women and children out of personal revenge quite frankly goes against everything the narrative has told us of Adolin. And all of this because he murdered Sadeas. My last thoughts are readers have always been, for reasons I never managed to properly identified, be willing to firmly believe Adolin was evil or would become evil or was a bad person and since Oathbringer didn't properly address the matter, those perceptions remain. I however do not think readers are supposed to read Adolin as a immoral person because I sincerely don't believe this is how he was written, no matter what my other complains may be. This is brief resume of my current stance on the matter in order to close the discussion, this way everyone knows where I stand. I quoted these two parts because I needed to say a thing or two on how Shallan is portrayed as weak. My thoughts were not geared towards her choosing Adolin, but more towards her being persistently pictured as needing others to care for her. Each time she has "a scene" where she "does something" she ends it needing to rest, to be blanketed, to be fed hot tea and to have a myriad of people festering over her. This has bothered me as I felt she was constantly both acting and being portrayed as the "weak little girl". I understand using stormlight it tiring, but Kaladin too is using stormlight and physically fighting: we don't see him needing to be fuss over nor going off to rest while others keep on working. Adolin goes through sleepless nights, physical fighting, I stopped counting how many injuries and he too doesn't need to lay down nor being fed hot tea after each fight. Even Renarin goes to fight the thunderclast after his very emotional scene with Jasnah and doesn't need to crumble in blankets afterwards. As such, I was bothered by this part of Shallan's characterization. For the second part, thank you for expending your thoughts. I'll admit I am worried over the union as my feelings are Adolin is, once again, putting himself into a relationship where he'll be the main provider of emotional support. It seems he has been clustered into such role for practically all of his life and it was sadden to see Shallan crumbled down in ways which are beyond repairs. Can she be the Highlady? Does she even have this capacity? Adolin needed not just a wife, but a partner. Can Shallan be this woman or will she flee as it proves too difficult or not interesting enough? While it is true Adolin is getting a safe get-away where he can act himself, be himself, outside of the pressure his father constantly put on him, but will this be enough? One of my concerns with the future of SA is how Brandon has focused so much of the narrative onto the topic of mental illness. I fear he may downplay issues non mentally ill people are having, making them insignificant and not worthy of thought. As such, the Adolin/Shallan union appear as it may become one of those instance where all the focus is kept on Shallan, her problems, her issues and none will ever move onto Adolin. This too has bothered me. I wish Adolin to be happy with Shallan and I do think Shallan is a good match, but I also felt Brandon broke her too badly in OB. She will never be whole again and I can't see how Adolin will pay the price for Pattern forcing Shallan to speak a truth she was not ready to speak. First apologies for not quoting more, but this was a very long post and I fear I do not have the time to fully respond. I will therefore broach this one point alone as I feel my earlier point basically respond to a lot of it. My stance on Adolin's morality remains firm. On the scene I have referenced, what bothered is how little reaction we saw from Dalinar upon seeing his son with a mortal wound. Of course, Renarin heals him, but I felt the dispatching of the Radiants, while Adolin remains on the ground, was cold. I expected more out of Dalinar, I expect more out of a parent, no matter how much they trust their children. This lack of concern, reaction within Dalinar's character on matters related to Adolin has always bothered me. Of course this is an argument I have often had and usually fail to convince many people. I can thus only share my impressions and general thoughts on the matter. I have always read an emotional distance in between Dalinar and Adolin which I feel was well explained with the flashbacks. I of course have to read to see if Brandon will pick it up within a future thread or not, but Oathbringer has not dispel my thoughts on the matter, it has reinforced them. On the matter of Adolin not acting like the perfect supporting encouraging brother towards Renarin during the thunderclast scene, need I remember you how injured he was? He is suffering from hundred of cuts, he is covered in his own blood, his injured his leg in ways which prevents him from putting weight on it, he hit his head hard enough to black out, his arms are hurting him and the only reason he is even standing up is out of sheer will-power. He speaks of every movement he tries to make as pure agony. He also went through several moments where he tried to evade a creature determine to squish him with this awful rock grinding sound which was terrifying enough to read, I can't imagine living it. Adolin is certainly not immune to fear, he often speak of feeling terror during powerless scenes where he witnesses his impeding death. So considering all of this, I would say the guy can get a break out of not being perfectly supportive towards Renarin, ought of wanting the Radiants to come forward. He gets to have a break from saying: "Took you long enough" when the guy is barely standing, injured and making his final stance as he ought to know fleeing is useless due to his injuries and fighting will be equally useless as he's probably too weak to parry decently anymore. I think it is really pushing it a tad far to hold it against Adolin to wish Renarin got here sooner: he's hurt! I really find it harsh to state Adolin is suddenly not a good brother to Renarin because his reaction was not spot perfect on the day he was nearly drowning in his own blood. Adolin is a human being too, he gets not be perfect at times, he gets to be a bit more abrupt when he's hurting: he does not make less supportive or less of a good brother to Renarin, it just means within this one Adolin his plate is understandably quite fill. I wish to quote out more, but I have not more time tonight. So tomorrow.
  3. I have posted my thoughts into various threads. Here is probably not the place to write them in details, but here is brief overview. For one, I already knew Adolin survived the book, so I wasn't worried when the Fused injured him, I was mostly anxious to see how Brandon would play. I actually liked the idea, I do think injuries add to the tension and I love when characters have them. Maya was great, but the scene could have been more emotional: I have come to see it as a weakness in Brandon, as a writer, he tends to under-play several of the most emotive scenes. Based on my limited knowledge of gut wounds, Brandon seems to have gotten it right, so I was pleased with this. For second, I thought Adolin was both a hit and a miss into this book. My perspective is Brandon shoved him into the background for most of the story, only dragging him out of it whenever he needed someone steady and reliable to take over. Very little of his viewpoints serve his character development: most are him doing stuff, accomplishing him without much hardship nor difficulty. He is completely immune to trauma, angst and events: everything rubs off him like water on the back of a duck. I disliked this as I didn't find it relatable nor plausible. I also hated how he disappeared for 500 pages only to come back as a comical relief and a goof ball. I felt there was little cohesion in between his early chapters and the later ones. For third, while I loved Maya and this small arc, I felt happening without much character development for Adolin makes it less powerful then it could have been. Readers are still rehearsing the same discussions as they did prior to OB's release. Adolin's character motivations aren't clear enough, his mental state is never explored or so briefly it doesn't really count as real character development, his potential as an Edgedancer is not explored significantly enough and most readers still believe he is going down towards an evil path still because he murdered Sadeas. For fourth, Brandon absolutely did not deal with Sadeas in a satisfying way. He made the murder matter to the main narrative, but he did not make the fact Adolin is the culprit matter. It made Adolin come across as "perfect" as he does not suffer consequences, not even internal ones as his character doesn't seem to care he murdered Sadeas. This has some readers argue he is a sociopath or a repressed Blackthorn. While I found those ideas extremely far-fetched, I remain annoyed at Brandon for not having taken the time to write a better story arc for Adolin. So that's about it in about s brief as I can.
  4. I thought her story took too much of the main narrative. I don't mind so much the number of chapters she has, I mind her story being too focus on her personality issue, which I find heavy to read and slow going. I also thought it was too independent from the other character, Shallan being only about Shallan. I have the same commentary about Kaladin and Dalinar: every single of their chapters are about them and just them. In comparison 3/4 of Adolin's chapters aren't about him, but about others. This lack of inter-character inter-action and dependency definitely impacted my level of enjoyment into the book. While I loved the flashback, I also thought Dalinar's present say story was a tad boring: it was just him having the same talk over and over again with the same people. It got repetitive and old very quickly. He barely inter-acted with his sons and his sole focus on foreign politic was.... well, it was boring to read. This being said, I might be an odd reader I I found the main characters arcs to be the least interesting within the book.
  5. I disagree with your interpretation of those scenes: Adolin never had to constrained himself from publicly murdering Sadeas. He had to be constrained to either punch him in the face or challenge him in a duel which he can't because he doesn't have the right rank. The only time Adolin thinks of murdering Sadeas is during the Stormcellar and, again, he does not need to be constrained: he constrains himself quite well considering Sadeas had just told him he would kill both his father and the king within the next three months. He also had the audacity to claim, after warring against him for a few years, Adolin would come to agree with Sadeas he was right to murder his father. Under the circumstances, I found his behavior extraordinarily mild. I thus do not get where in the textual you find Adolin had barely done what Dalinar asked of him when he has done the opposite. Sure, in the end he kills him, but this after all other ways to deal with him had extinguished. Are you therefore going to hang over Adolin the fact he isn't Jasnah? Because he did not cold-headily reflect on the why he ought to murder Sadeas, because he did not rationalize it within fifty layers of depth, then his actions are immoral? Sure, he snapped in a moment of rage, but this rage didn't happen out of nothing. Adolin was more than willing to walk pass Sadeas and to ignore him, but the man wouldn't leave him alone. Sadeas taunted Adolin and Adolin ended up asking a very genuine question: "What is wrong with you and why are you doing this?", a question to which Sadeas provided a very genuine answer: "Because I can and I will keep on doing it until I win.". Adolin needs not going into more mental thinking: Sadeas tells him right here and there there are no ways to deal with him but to kill him. Of course, once it is done, Adolin thinks some more on it and finds his initial reaction was the right one and, as such, moves on. I never read Adolin as loving to inflict pain to Sadeas, he was just glad he was dead and, afterwards, he seemed more in shock than gleefully happy. Those characters also had other means to react to the events, but they choose murder. Shallan needed not to strangulate her father after poisoning him. She wanted him gone too. She doesn't get to be excused because the individual she killed was her father, Sadeas was just as terrible. The difference is more people died at Sadeas's hand: Adolin doesn't get to be call out while Shallan is glorified. What they did was both equivalent, a last resort mean they felt was required, but both could have tried other avenues, though they would have likely failed had they attempt it. So again, Adolin is called out because he isn't Jasnah... Shallan didn't had a lengthy rational argument made up when she killed her father: she saw Balat being threatened and she acted. Adolin hated Sadeas because Sadeas had worked against his father for a long time. Adolin sees his father was someone he needs to protect, thoughts likely issuing from the years he spent witnessing his father descend into alcoholism. As a result, Adolin cannot stand anyone trying to harm his father, because when Dalinar is harmed, the drunkard is what he becomes. Those protective feelings are very strong into Adolin and, as such, he does hate a man having tried to undermine his fathers a months of not years before the events of WoK. Also, anger is not evil, anger is a natural reaction when faced with injustice: Adolin thinks Sadeas is not fair to his father by falling to respect the great man Dalinar is. Of course, Adolin has an embellished vision of his father one filled with unicorns and rainbow pissing angels, but it does not change the fact he cannot stand people trying to hurt his daddy. It is one of the argument I have often made in the past, how the Adolin/Dalinar relationship was reversed in having the son care for the father as the father should be caring for the son. I am disagreeing this has been a constant theme within the series which is why I never thought Brandon would skip it before, but he did. As such, I have come to think Adolin is held to different standard then the other characters. The murder, while being written in a very climatic way, is not yielding any internal consequences nor do I think the author will make the character, one year after the events, suddenly having a living crisis over it. Oathbringer was the opportunity for Adolin to have this crisis as many elements seemed in line to make him topple over: it didn't happen. It didn't happen because the event was not important to Adolin. Having his entire family being Radiant, but him is also not important. I wish Brandon had written a better more cohesive Adolin, but to state, at this point in time, more will come out of it is too much wishful thinking to me. I sincerely do not believe the justified hate Adolin had towards Sadeas will open a never ending flow of hatred towards humanity. It is just as it is. There were no emotions written into his character because he has none which really matters. As such, I definitely consider this arc to be done and gone. I couldn't imagine, before reading Oathbringer, Brandon would have Adolin be the only character without an internal dilemma, the only character not struggling with something, but he did. This is exactly what the author has written and if, in the case of other characters, I can rationalize more will come due to them being very important to the narrative, I can't say the same for Adolin. Adolin is just not a protagonist nor a very important character and, as such, he needs no internal consequences nor dilemma nor struggles nor hardships. Brandon has definitely made it very clear with OB what his intentions were with his character and they were to have him been the "reliable steady normal dumb dummy everyone can rely on whenever needed". Brandon will never directly say he has no plans for Adolin nor will he ever directly say he plans not to give him character development. He has however stated how Adolin wasn't a protagonist nor a character around whom the story was orchestrated and, as such, wasn't on par with the other characters. He did state on numerous occasions being pleased with Adolin in Oathbringer and genuinely thinking his fans will like the arc he designed for him (he was likely thinking of Maya) which tells me any single critic I may have is not shared by the author. As such, if the author is satisfied with what he had to offer, and if I am not, then the fault isn't his, it is mine. Brandon will not change his book structure nor his narrative because Maxal didn't like how he dealt with Adolin providing he is even aware of my existence. Hence if Oathbringer is what Brandon considers is good character development for Adolin, then him and I have very different opinions: future books also are unlikely to fix it because to fix it, the author would need to agree there is something to fix within the first place. Oh yes, I noticed this. This is a constant theme with Adolin and it had been highlighted quite often within the book. When Adolin is riled, has an issue or a problem, he works harder. I have no issue with this narrative so to speak: I have made theories Adolin would react this way, by working himself hard. My issues are it seems he has an infinite capacity of adaptation: more work is never too much. He never reaches the point where, most people dealing with hardship using the same tactics usually meet, he just can't work enough to make it go away or he just doesn't have the capacity to work so hard for so long. In shorts, Adolin has no limits, no threshold. This is what bothered me, this infinite ability to just cope. I didn't find it realistic. I think it would be unsatisfying because Adolin is not the right character to turn evil. He is presented as a genuinely good, empathetic individual who jumps into the fray on others behalf. He will not let his soldiers run first thinking it is his task to take the first hits. He will not let Kaladin rot in prison. He wouldn't let the boy being crushed by the thunderclast. He's just a nice person and to make him evil would imply removing all of those qualities. It would require Adolin suddenly not being empathetic, suddenly not caring about others or his family. I just can't see this happening with the character we have without being either OOC or breaking the immersion. Dark Adolin is just not a possibility, not to me. We already have dark characters come back to the light. I argue we need not another one. I am just saying there are a lot of reasons to like Adolin and one which comes across often is how he is very outward, not secretive and basically is what you say. No secrets. Readers have come forth and say they like it. Mind, a lot of readers also like Renarin, but it seemed to me Brandon's comments were a tad diminishing towards the numerous readers who love Adolin: he basically said Renarin was the best character which could be interpreted as readers liking Adolin got it wrong. I may be reading too much into it, but I have always found this WoB hurtful. Also, I relate a lot to Adolin, so for the author to say Adolin is not interesting, I felt he was saying: "You are not interesting" which isn't what he meant, but it was hard not to read it this way. To be fair, I started to read Adolin as boring sometimes in Oathbringer when all he was doing was trying in silly clothing and when it became obvious he'd be the Highprince. I always found Highprince Adolin was the most boring of the boringly boring development. This was a great post. Thank you for writing it. I have on commentary to make which is more to fish for additional comments more then to counter-argue. In shorts, while I do agree with you on why Adolin is good for Shallan, I'd like to hear your thoughts on how she is good for him. This relationship has been way too centered on Shallan, her problems, her needs, her person, very little of it have focused on Adolin, including the book itself. So how is Shallan a good match for Adolin, apart from being the only girl who could pull up with him long enough to tie the knot?
  6. I disagree with this statement: the larger part of WoR had Dalinar and Adolin trying to find a legal way to deal with Sadeas. It was highlighted within the book how it was impossible for them to formally accuse Sadeas as it would mean civil way in between their princedom, it would have broke the kingdom and they couldn't risk it. As such, the only path left open to them was to find a legal way to take Sadeas out or, at the very least, to reduce his influence significantly enough he wouldn't be a threat anymore. This is why they orchestrated the 4 on 1 duel, a ploy to force Sadeas into the ring where Adolin would be free to kill him in a perfectly acceptable and legal way. It failed. They had no more options. Early OB showed us how Dalinar had zero intentions to deal with Sadeas, he mourned the loss of his military capacity, he thought finding Urithiru was enough to cement Alethkar and would have Sadeas fall in-line. Adolin was however privy to Sadeas's musing on how wrong Dalinar was, on how he would keep on making trouble and, the problem is and has always been, Sadeas had the means to carry on his threats. As such, I think it is false to say Adolin never tried to find a legal and moral way to deal with Sadeas: he did, he failed. Now he was put into a situation where he was either allowing a threat to walk free on the promise he may find a way to deal with it later, while knowing Dalinar will NOT deal with it, or he was ending it now. Adolin chose now and when Adolin makes a decision, we have never seen him second guessed himself. Ever. We have never seen Adolin acknowledge he made a mistake. Sadeas, it seems to me, is just another example. Adolin genuinely does not think he made a mistake, he genuinely thinks he did something good. As for psychological scars, Brandon wrote none within his textual. I don't believe Adolin can do such a thing without it having no consequences, but this is what the author wrote. At this point in time however, I am willing to believe Brandon never realized this is how he wrote it, I personally believe Brandon thinks he broached it. Adolin thinks about the murder a few times, he wonders how he should feel about it, then decides he should not feel guilty, but he did think of it. He did weight it, within his own mind. It just wasn't a very big story arc and it kind of happened within three sentences. I however do not think Brandon planned for more. As for altruist intentions, you forgot to quote why Adolin snaps in the first place: he snaps because Sadeas told him there was NOTHING he could ever do to stop him. He promised there was NOTHING Adolin could do to protect his father. Except killing Sadeas. This is why Adolin snaps. Sure, he didn't have deepened thoughts on the matter, but I honestly do not see why he should: every single character within this story has killed without much additional thoughts. I don't know why Adolin is held to a different standard because he killed Sadeas: of all the people whom were killed, Sadeas deserved it the best. Well, yes, I agree theoretically Ialai could want personal revenge. I am however going to agree SA has become way bigger then Ialai's petty wishes for vengeance and, as such, it won't be a plot point. Oh don't worry I am not reading any of it as an attack and I was very honest from the start. I came out of four long years of speculations and anticipations which were slowly ripped, destroyed up until my most anxious to read story arc turned being not much into the book. So while we can definitely craft an argument on how it is not over, I keep on feeling if Brandon did not capitalize on his own cliff-hanger, when it was warm, angst-y and well positioned within the story, then why would he do it later? I have kept track of every single WoB on the matter of Adolin for the past four years, I've gotten information very few people have seen and they all agree one with another: Brandon doesn't have big plans for Adolin. Sure, he gave him a bigger role than initially planned, but he is not a protagonist within this story, therefore imagining his arc will ever read as one or will ever carry on the depth of one is bound to lead to disappointment. My issues with Adolin's character is not the lack of progression, other characters had little progression within the book, it is the fact Brandon did not bother to write him a story arc to begin with. Let's see how it really played out in OB.... Early Part 1: We see two really nice Adolin's viewpoints early on which shows him being introspective. He doesn't want to think about the murder, he over-works himself in order to compensate. We see it weights on him. He reads as more emotional then before: he has a lot of reactions to events. Seeing the copy-cat murders created a strong reaction into him and led to Shallan to notice many odd behaviors with Adolin. Late Part 1: All the angst, the emotions and the stress is gone. Adolin becomes serviceable to Shallan's story arc, he brings muscles to her quest without adding much else. Part 2: Adolin is not present in Part 2. His name is mentioned twice, I think. Part 3: Adolin is back into the story, but all traces of his earlier dilemma are completely gone. Adolin is working to the service of the plot. He takes over the lead of the operation, he gets them to his "safe-house" and is then used as a mere comical relief while Shallan and Kaladin are actually having story arcs. Very Late Part 3: Adolin has viewpoints again, after not having them for over 70 chapters. He muses a bit about Sadeas, but makes his decision he shouldn't trouble himself with it. He is very set on the task at hand. The fact he is tired, the fact he didn't sleep never really mattered which was annoying considering Shallan is always written as dropping down because she is so tired. Adolin it seems can power through sleepless nights, through injuries, through stress, through death and through everything: he'll watch everyone drop of exhaustion, every single Radiants have the advantage of stormlight before he shows signs of it and even then. So great action scenes, but we see how whatever goes on in Adolin's mind, it does not matter during the attack. It is, by all means, gone. Part 4: Adolin is out of his league into Shadesmar, but without previous viewpoints to highlight his growing discomfort with the new world, it falls kind of flat. He repetitively says he feels over-whelmed and yet he takes the lead. The fact he expresses those emotions led to not valid plot point. He gets stab by the Fused and Maya saves him, but even while bleeding out to his death, Adolin still has few comments to offer nor valid reaction whatsoever. He accepts he is to die and wishes for Kaladin/Shallan to leave him and escape. Part 5: Adolin is healed. Apart from Shallan, now one thinks to ask how he is doing, everyone basically ignores him including his own father. He then goes about to fight whatever he can fight. He muses over how he never killed Alethi and he doesn't like it. He then corrects himself thinking he did kill Sadeas, but once again, those thoughts aren't causing any reaction into him whatsoever. He fights the thunderclast, which was an awesome fight, he gets badly injured but before the creature can finish him up, Renarin comes back to heal him. Partially. Still, despite still being in pain, Adolin picks up a lance and goes back to fight. After the fight, all signs of injuries are gone: Shallan is weak and needs everyone to look over her. Adolin is once again, pictured as unaffected by most events. Even when he "abducts" in favor of Kaladin, emotions, in a very emotional character, do not seem to run very outwardly. Later Adolin uses the fact he murdered Sadeas as an excuse to refuse to being king: this is the only consequence Brandon wrote and I believe it will be the only one. He still gets to be a boring Highprince. This scene is meant to be the hallmark of Adolin's character progression, because he defies his father. It however falls flat because Adolin had too little development before. The end. Hence my issues aren't the lack of progression, it is the fact Brandon most likely believe he wrote it and, as such, will not correct it. My issues also are how Adolin's earlier reactions are completely ignored later on. My issues are I think OB wasn't a very well-written book when it comes to characters arcs............... which is why I have a hard time believing Brandon has a "plan" for future developments. I think he believes he executed it well. And yes, we have seven more books to go, but without Brandon's firm commitment more and better Adolin is to come, hoping for more has become pointless. It is also true other characters will rise, but I have been very honest with this as well. I don't find the other characters as interesting as Adolin and while other character arcs might be great to read in future books, it will never compensate for the botched up arc for Adolin. I have always read trust and love as two different things: Brandon trusts Adolin, he sees him as the great man he himself failed to be, but love is something else entirely. My reasons for saying I never thought Dalinar loved Adolin very much (we saw in the flashbacks he did love him as a boy, but he hated him as a teenager, I feel he later has issues with both feelings, he can't love Adolin as he once did) were he never really cared about his physical safety nor integrity. He never worries over him, even if he trusts him, as a father, it should be at the back of his mind, but it never is. Dalinar also treats Adolin as a soldier, just a soldier, never a son. On the other hand, I felt many of Dalinar's scenes with Renarin had a fondness to them I never read into his scenes with Adolin. Dalinar is also very harsh with Adolin and that too never gave me a strong "love" vibe. Why Adolin? I have been asking myself this question too and I have come to think Brandon just disagrees with all of us. While the murder mattered to the narrative, the fact Adolin did it has not mattered. It hasn't been dealt with, but nothing promises it will be dealt with, especially not with the one year gap. And yes, the WoB implies there would be internal conflict, but honestly I think we got it. Adolin wondered about the murder and decided he was right to do so: this was the internal conflict. We just expected more or something more important, more interesting, but I sincerely believe Brandon broached it and dealt with it. My point in saying he doesn't behave like a sociopath is link to Adolin having dealt with it, having wondered about guilt. The fact we think it was insufficient doesn't change the fact it was written into the text: we just expected something greater, more obvious, more important. We were wrong: it was not important, but it is false to say Brandon did not broach it. Mind, we could always ask Brandon and maybe someone will ask, but I do think he'd say: "There were ramifications and conflicts written into the story". Do I think Amaram was weak? Yes. He was too weak to accept responsibility for his actions. He refused to take the blame and to admit his own guilt. He had the opposite reaction to Adolin whom takes full responsibility of his actions and isn't trying to find a way to exonerate himself. He killed Sadeas because he felt he had too. He doens't feel bad about it which is why Odium has nothing to hook onto Adolin. The only reason he could hook on Amaram was because Amaram felt bad about Kaladin, he felt justified, but bad about it. He could hook onto Dalinar because Dalinar couldn't take responsibility for his actions. Moash has a different story in the sense he was looking for someone to blame for his misfortune, something to fuel his revenge. Adolin just isn't within the same situation. Adolin is pleased with how events turned out. He feels no pain, no guilt, no negative emotions for Odium to fester on. Also, we do have a WoB which states Adolin murdering Sadeas had nothing to do with Odium. I honestly do not see which side of Adolin Odium could use against him. Sadeas had been attacking Dalinar's reputation for a long time before the events of WoK. He had bad-mouthed him and discredited him on numerous occasions which is why Adolin is angry at him from the start. Alethi take verbal threats as a serious offense and it is implied Sadeas has not been kind to what he perceived as Dalinar's growing weakness. It is also stated how the Kholins had not gone out for a gem in weeks due to Dalinar's refusal to fight causing them to become the laughing stock of Alethkar. Adolin took harm done to his house's reputations very seriously. Assassination is never discussed because it isn't within the Alethi ways to assassinate an opponent. We have a WoB which confirms Alethi would not try to assassinate a rival, but would instead try to get him to duel you so you could kill him. It is also stated within the flashbacks how Gavilar managed to get most of his opponents to duel Dalinar so he could kill them in all legality. As such, it is normal neither Dalinar nor Adolin would think of assassination as a means to achieve their end: this just isn't how Alethi deal with their opponents.
  7. I think Shallan will take a step back and have a story arc of similar size to Kaladin in OB. Brandon made Kaladin's depression be a central theme in WoR, but he toned it down for OB. He made Shallan's personality issues a very central theme in OB, I expect he will tone it down in book 4. Since book 4 will likely focus on Venli, I expect her character, the Fused and the Parshendis in general will have an increased role. The major three Dalinar/Kaladin/Shallan will share a smaller story arc, probably around the 70K words each. Onto the other characters, I would expect Rlain to have an increased role with the focus being on the Parshendis. I would expect to see moderate amount of Jasnah, Renarin and Navani, but neither will have a strong story arc, probably of similar size as in OB. I no longer expect anything out of Adolin, so I am going to assume he'll be around whenever he is useful to be around. He may or may not revive Maya, but I don't expect to read much on this front. With the focus on Shallan likely diminishing and the rise of the other characters, we are likely to see much less of him. He will be the Highprince, so he'll probably spend most of his time, off-screen, doing political stuff. He probably won't fight so much as Highprince don't really engage into battles. I expect his viewpoints to be more sparse as we move into the story. I'd love for Rira to play a role, but I have come to believe whatever I expect won't happen, so Brandon probably has other plans.
  8. And you are misrepresenting my counter-argument. I am trying, perhaps badly or with the wrong choice of words, to explain how trying to read more of Adolin into the few written scenes he has is most likely not going to lead to much. What matters when trying to interpret those scenes is to keep in mind the author's intend and his intend is not to write Adolin off as a sociopath nor to give him sociopath tendencies nor to make the murder highlight a side of Adolin which would be negative. As such, Adolin not feeling grief nor guilt towards murdering Sadeas is not a sociopath behavior, it is just him thinking he did what needed to be done. Adolin has repetitively act within similar ways all across both books: as soon as he believes an action is justified, he won't waste time second guessing himself nor thinking he made a mistake. He'll just move on and this is what we read. Adolin convincing himself he did the right thing and, as thus, moving on. Yes, readers thought more would happen, but the author didn't plan his character this way, he planned Adolin as a very pragmatic man: he killed Sadeas because he was threatening his family. Period. No need to get all emotional over it. He is a career hardened soldier, many career hardened soldiers will kill and not feel much emotions afterwards because they did their work. Adolin feels he did his work. My point is thus no need to read more into it. This event is not going to open an abyss under Adolin: no one cares he did it. Shallan had no reaction, Dalinar doesn't care. Brandon will not write more unto the murder. If he had plans to capitalize on his own cliff-hanger, then he would have use it in OB, he wouldn't have waited another book down the road to recycle the story arc. I quite frankly wouldn't describe Dalinar's reaction as horrified: I have seen rocks have stronger reactions to bad news. He was moderately angry, but mostly annoyed, but certainly not horrified. He was more bothered by the idea Adolin didn't see fit to tell him more than him actually killing a Highprince. Dalinar also says he would make a proclamation and a public statement, but didn't think this would prevent him from crowning Adolin. Nobody, including Adolin himself, seems to think the truth might be dangerous for Adolin's safety. If Adolin was in any danger of getting trialed for it, then surely someone would have voice concerns, but no one did. Adolin is well above the law: no one will dare attack a Kholin, so at worst, the event is damaging for the Kholin's reputation. Nothing more. Obviously, whether or not the statement was made is unclear in the end. Granted, they might have been waiting to figure out how best to voice it, they might have also thought it should wait until after the wedding. I don't see how blackmailing would be an interesting avenue to explore. The story made it clear Adolin would suffer no consequences, there are no one left to trial nor accuse him and he just sits well above the law as a Highprince. This isn't a fact which will hold over Adolin's head because, as Dalinar put it, everyone broke the code at one time or another. We've been there before, trying to find how the event could be used against Adolin, but OB was very clear on the matter: the event is not relevant enough. Dalinar's view of Adolin remains relatively the same: he said one very lighthearted comment which he literally shrugged off the idea Adolin murdered Sadeas. This one quote, just by itself, will not fuel a story arc: it was too meaningless within the entire book. Had Dalinar have a reaction, had he really thought about it, then yeah, I'd argue it could be it, but this one quote? Are we really going to built up expectations for the future over this little? I sure won't. I built a great future over a great many more facts and clues, it crumbled in OB. Not going back there. I would also argue Dalinar doesn't love Adolin. He loved him as a boy, but the hate he felt while he grew up due to his strong resemblance to his mother likely distorted his relationship with his son. I never read much love when it comes to Dalinar towards Adolin, I certainly do not read love right here in the end of OB. I read love when he refers to Renarin which is likely him compensating for having literally ignored his younger son for, well, most of his life. Adolin always seemed to be the sore spot: the boy born to be the greater man, the boy he loved, but shut out as he grew up too much like Evi. He then became a tool to his father which both father and son were happy for. There has always been several scenarios to be written on those premises, but then again, Brandon will most likely never write those. Adolin is just not an important enough character for this to happen. I can't say about the Ghostblood not the Skybreakers, we do not know enough about them to figure out what their end game might be. I wouldn't feat Szeth however as he made his second oath to obey to Dalinar's law and, by Dalinar's law, Adolin is exonerated. The other Skybreakers may not care enough about Adolin to bring him to justice, this would require his character to narrative in a way he just isn't. I think if the statement were to be damaging, then the characters would have expressed reasons to believe it might. They didn't, hence they all feel the affair can be contained without too much pain. Brandon uses minor plots, minor elements which foreshadows greater ones to come, this is true, but he does not systematically do it. And, as many readers will explain, Brandon did use the Sadeas murder. It did have consequences. It caused Amaram to be named Highprince which, in turn, caused him to fall to his weakness. It caused the Sadeas army to defect and it contributed to the final Kaladin/Amaram's encounter. It offer visibility on how Odium works to make his Champions, how he twists the mind of the weak, how he uses other people's pain, offers to take it away, to give them justification and salvation in exchange for their soul. It also showed how Adolin was immune to it as he doesn't need any of it. Therefore, there were ramifications, just none which touched Adolin's character which is essentially what some readers are complaining about. In terms of a narrative, Sadeas's death is over. It was explored. It was used. It has no other purpose and just because we can figure out a few additional ones does not mean Brandon will go back to it. I need to again go back to the basis: Adolin is not an important character. Brandon will not write an Adolin focused story arc nor will he write more than what he did. This arc is done and gone. Well, you aren't going to find an Adolin related WoB I have read. I also have some which never made their ways to the official channels. Two of the WoB you have quoted are issued from the Oathbringer pre-release discussion and they were asked by a reader worried over the OB plan not giving much room for Adolin. Brandon's response was he didn't consider a character needed viewpoint to have a strong presence, he though "no viewpoints" could enhance a character and he felt Adolin's character developed into an interesting and unexpected way compared to the original plan. All of those things he said in relation to OB which we now read. Brandon and I have very different opinions on a great many things. I really do not think not giving Adolin viewpoints until chapter 83 enhanced his character: I thought it made him insignificant and incoherent. I thought Adolin's story arc was disjointed and did not built up on the early chapters. I felt there was a break in tone with him and things brought up early on just vanished into thin air. As thus, if Brandon considers this is both interesting and enhanced, then I have to disagree with him. Just the fact I know these are Brandon's opinion on the character is what prompts me to say he won't write him better in a future book. Brandon doesn't think he wrote Adolin poorly, he thought he did a good job with the character. The unexpected likely refers to Maya which was great, but without a story arc to go with it, it will become a moot point. The ramifications, we had them. They just weren't what we expected. He won't write additional ones because part of his readership didn't like his first trial. I don't know if you read WoK Prime, but Adolin was an insipid uninteresting character in it, so improvement from this first draft weren't hard to achieve. Mind, I love how Brandon had started to write Adolin in WoK/WoR, but the dropped the ball in OB. I wasn't dropped, it was dealt with. The fact we don't think it was satisfying bears no relevance. Brandon thought it was satisfying. He will not re-write the book on the behalf of a few discontent fans. Still, I'd love the opportunity to challenge him on it, but the answers would most likely be very boring. I honestly do not see Brandon ever admitting the arc was dealt with in an unsatisfying way. There is a WoB which more or less give up OB's plot: Dalinar never finds out until it is so late he has no reaction. Had he known early on, he might have reacted, but by the time he does find out, so much has happened it was not relevant anymore. Brandon said there would be people to think what he did was totally, totally, totally (the emphasis was Brandon's not mine) wrong. He never said we would read it in the book just some people would disagree. He never promised this would be a plot point. Revenge, be it personal nor for his house, did not once cross his mind. He just wanted a living thread to be exterminated. My thoughts on the scene have always been Adolin snapped and went into blood rage, which is a protection mechanism humans have which can be triggered if their safety is threatened too hard. This is why it feels like there is two Adolin, one which is horrified and one which is amused. The horrified one is Adolin realizing he is doing something awful, the amused one is the one who's pleased by his actions. Arguably, Adolin later rationalized he was right to murder Sadeas, hence no more reactions are seen from him. I don't think it was sociopathic because of the context and of whom Sadeas was, had it been someone else, then yeah, we could discuss it, had it been another character but Adolin, yeah too, we might discuss, but this is Adolin. You really honestly think Brandon will use Ialai again? Brandon will not go back to internal Alethi affairs, especially not Adolin is the Highprince. He's above the law now. Why do you think I am even on this thread? I never supported the Kaladin/Shallan ship, but I found out I agree with the grievance of the Kaladin/Shallan shippers in thinking too much was foreshadowed and not much got used. I also agree it was under-whelming even if I am relatively fine with the conclusion. I realized my issues with the books and the Kaladin/Shallan shippers issues with the book were the same ones, they just didn't focus on the same elements. I also saw what you all did, decided it was not over, trying to give justification into scenes which went missing and rationalizing a way into which Brandon would salvage it. My perspective is the complete opposite. I spent four years taking Adolin's character, writing analysis and essays for him. I have written more than 1000K worth of material on the subject of Adolin and for which purpose? Besides my personal pleasure in writing them? What were they for? A 20K story arc which was lesser than in WoK, broken down in segments which weren't consistent one with another. My involvement into this fandom has been absurd and yet no one from the author's team every recognize I even existed nor did it prompt Brandon to actually address the Adolin fans whenever he made statements for SA. So what's left? Hoping more is to come? I will do no such thing. For me, it is over. Brandon has made it clear the story he wanted to write was not one where Adolin's character got decent development. Sure, he'll get something, we'll see more of him, but I doubt it will be better nor more lengthy then what we have for OB. As such, I will certainly not prep myself for book 4 expecting more, be disappointed again, nor try to hunt WoB and Brandon to get something consistent out of him. Adolin is not really important in his plans and he has other priorities then pulling on all the little strings he left hanging in there. I am sorry it upsets you. I just do not want anyone else to end up within my situation. I give out so much to the SA fandom, people have no idea how much... So sorry, I've been burned out, so unless Brandon himself makes a statement to rectify it, then I am out of the hopeful hype wagon. I just do not want anyone to fall down as hard as I did and well, I see a lot of reasons why it may happen to others. I did too! Which is why I kept on hoping and writing and speculating on Adolin: I couldn't believe Brandon would not use his character nor write a satisfying story arc for him, but he did. He's the ONLY character in SA which suffers from such a broken down exposure: he is a tool. A storming tool to the narrative Brandon uses whenever he needs him, but him, him above all characters is not getting real development. Bridge 4 got more development within their short chapters than Adolin did. Well, OK maybe they didn't, but at least it was centered in them, not on them doing things without having any emotions nor thoughts. The Ham quote expresses exactly Brandon's thoughts on Adolin: he isn't interesting enough,he doesn't have enough conflicts. I have a WoB where he says how he finds Renarin so much more interesting because of his secretive introspective nature. Funny thing is my perception is readers find Adolin more interesting because he doesn't have this nature... but Brandon has a different opinion. Was the readers reaction really brought up to this attentions? How much did the beta said on the Adolin arc? As far as I am aware, the betas thought the Adolin fans would like the book, probably because of Maya. I loved Maya, but it won't be interesting if Brandon makes Adolin bond her because he is just "open-minded" as opposed to broken, but many readers disagree with me. So which reaction is Brandon supposed to focus on? The readers who loved the book and were pleased with how Brandon handled both Sadeas and the love triangle or the pesky ones which are complaining? Adolin has less viewpoints in OB than he did in WoK............ I thought this was very telling. I no longer believe in a pay-off, no unless Brandon or someone from his team addresses it. I meant conflict within the main characters, not in between them and the "others". I never believed into the Dark Adolin arc: we already have Moash for this. I think the Dark Adolin plot would be more unsatisfying then the plot we have gotten so far. I always thought the Dark Adolin plot relied on a lot of speculation, projection and wishful thinking. I think there is evidence Brandon will let the fourth viewpoint character sink into the background and be used as a mere comical relief: this evidence it called Oathbringer. Oh didn't read it as an attack, as I said, I was very bitter these days. So I guess it shows in my posting and within my lesser activity. I am however afraid it will start raining ducks on the day I'll be able to have enthusiasm over Adolin again.
  9. With a one year time gap planned in between both books, I most surely do not expect Sadeas's death to matter much more than it did in Oathbringer. Adolin did speak the truth: Shallan didn't care, Dalinar cared a little, but didn't let this influence how he viewed his son. He offered to make a statement and claimed, while damaging, the event wouldn't threatened the Kholin's leadership in any foreseeable way. The only way I could see this plausibly played out, now every single player of importance has either been discarded or not bothered by it, if if the heir, similarly as Tanalan Jr did, went on a cruise to get vengeance. However, the heir is very young, so this will not happen until many more years and, considering the Desolation, it will likely be forgotten completely. Also, it is too much a re-enactment of the Rift. As such I most definitely think Brandon is done with this arc: he is not one to re-cycle old threads nor to have them not be significant until 2 books down the road. Seeing how Brandon's writing style has evolved and cement with Oathbringer, I would claim he is one author to focus on the big narrative, the big focus, not the smaller ones. This is why character oriented readers are so disappointed, this is why so many of us feel scenes are missing: they are missing not because it foreshadows future development, they are missing not because the author wanted to leave "something" open for the future, they are missing because they didn't matter next to the main narrative. Thus, I firmly believe Brandon considers the Sadeas affair done and gone. I'd be curious to hear his thoughts on his readers disappointment, but he's likely to say "A story cannot be everything to everyone, he focused on what was important and yes, some things were left out, but such is the story he wants to write. Readers can always edit it in their mind to fit their expectations better.". He will not say: "I never realized my readers were so invested into those story arcs. I can see now why the book is not working for any, if I were to do it again, I might change a thing or two.". The matter of Dalinar burning Evi alive also lies with Sadeas: it is not important. Adolin does not need to know. Nobody knows but Dalinar, Kadash and Kalami. Nobody is ever going to tell Adolin and even if Dalinar were to come clean, Adolin will shrug it off just he shrugged off everything else. Nothing will ever tarnish how Adolin views his father because they would mean conflict within the heroes and Brandon has made it clear the conflict was not to be in between the Radiants, but in between either Dalinar and other nations or our heroes and the Fused. They aren't going to quarrel which is likely why they never talk one to another. It is most definitely not coming. I will not believe unless someone can come out with a WoB having Brandon PROMISES he will take care of Adolin in ways his readers will find satisfying within future books. And Brandon is an author, not a psychologist: not every single one of his character is coherent nor are they all well written. He gave Adolin a very traumatic childhood, but had him grow up well-adapted, well-behaved, steady, reliable, strong and seemingly normal within all the senses of the word. I am not a psychologist, but it seems far-fetched to think an abusive drunken father and a murdered mother aren't dire enough events to cause some adaptation issues into a growing boy. However, a lack of remorse has never been one of Adolin's reactions within anyone of his other actions. He openly hates the killing, he is openly ill-at-east in having to kill fellow Alethi even if they betrayed their country, but he doesn't seem to feel much for Sadeas. He is seen to be worried over the consequences and his reaction, after the kill, is own of shock, not glee nor pleasure nor "I do not care". His early chapters had Adolin trying very hard not to think about it, presumably to avoid having to deal with the rush of emotions it would create. The story however stops right here as Brandon drops the ball and later decides Adolin would not care. As such, I do not consider Adolin's apparent lack of care as testifying of sociopathic behaviors, I take it as a narrative mistake made by an author whom didn't want to write too much of Adolin, so he removed all reactions and brushed the affair under the carpet. I certainly do not believe Brandon will take it out, in a later book, and start using it to further craft Adolin. Hence, readers aren't supposed to read Adolin as having "sociopathic behaviors", they are supposed to read him as he is written: "He is a well-adapted young man who pushes through hardships which are never big enough to bring down his enthusiasm nor his eagerness. Yes, he murdered a Highprince and yes, it should matter, but it doesn't because Adolin later rationalize it was the best course of action and once he chooses a course of action, he follows it without guilt nor remorse". He does the same in WoK and in WoR: once he decides to follow and believe Dalinar, all negative emotions vanish. My take on this community has always been: I will post as long as I am enjoying it and as long as other people seem to enjoy reading my posts. Of course, I chose to have a fighting horse which never made unanimity, it caused me a lot of trouble, but as long as I believed what I wrote mattered, then I was happy to do it. I can't however say if my involvement within this community will remain as it has been within the past four years. It has turned being very bittersweet as I feel I gave up a lot, but got not much in return. Arguably, it isn't why I was doing it in the first place, but looking back at my involvement, I came to believe it had no purpose other than myself passing time. It created many too strong emotions and perhaps my husband has been right all along: I should choose another hobby. I however encourage anyone willing to keep on participating to do so, not everyone can turn so bitter and most people are better received within this community. You can hardly do worst than I. We do not need his behavior to be spelled out because they are self-explanatory. There are no other motives for saving the prostitute than saving her: there is nothing in it for Adolin and I don't believe one minute he does it for the show. Where are the spectators? A bunch of disgruntled Sadeas's soldiers? Adolin doesn't care what they think of him. Most of my character analysis had Adolin as a two fold person. There is the outside him, the him which wants to please, which tries hard to be everything for everyone (especially Dalinar) and will ignore his own well-being to conform himself to what he perceives he needs to be. Then there is the inside him, the compassionate very un-Alethi him, which, when pushes comes to shove, tend to get out as illustrated by his trek of inconsistent behaviors in WoR (not so much in OB). There is nothing wrong with Adolin's conscience nor sense of morality except he got it from his mother (confirmed by WoB) and, as such, has always done his best to repress because: 1) his father hated his mother, 2) his mother was the laughing stock of the Alethi society. However as OB progresses, Adolin becomes more and more like Evi, being more physical with Shallan, hugging, kissing and refusing the kingship. This was Brandon's way to make Adolin's facade come down, but it was poorly done without much drama nor conflict nor tension. Mind, I guess this is what he was going for, but as a long-term Adolin's fan, I was hoping for more. For a lot more. On the fashionata thing-y, I would argue Adolin likes fashion either because it allows him to hide or because it allows him to expressed himself better. Not really, Adolin is not opaque. Brandon has said it on numerous occasions: he does not think Adolin needs viewpoints because Adolin is self-explanatory. There is no hidden Adolin nor layer nor depth: what you see if what you get and, as thus, Adolin's action aren't opaque. They are exactly what the story tells us they are. Nope. He never once thought of personal vengeance. All he thought about was this man was about to keep on harming his daddy, hence he killed him. It wasn't retribution like Moash, but a son protecting a father. I used to say how twisted Adolin's relationship with his father was because he felt inclined to protect Dalinar whereas Dalinar has no instinct to protect Adolin. And it should be the other way around! But it doesn't seem Brandon wants to go down this way with his story. He means for Adolin to be loyal, hence he will stay loyal even if Dalinar doesn't deserve him.
  10. I haven't read the rest of the thread but I will answer to this one point. I honestly cannot fathom how one can try to craft Adolin is an immoral person because rescuing the prostitute did not involve dire danger to his person, nor can I fathom one can try to make it sound as if Adolin was only doing it "for the public show". First of, Adolin is within an enemy warcamp: he isn't among his officers. His public display has literally NO value except to save the woman being bullied. Second of, Adolin has absolutely NO jurisdiction over the Sadeas's officers, so on which ground was he supposed to trial the guilty officer? He doesn't have this authority and even stepping in was him trespassing as illustrated by him cancelling his appointment and leaving. Why? Because he knows his altercation will get known and is likely to get him into trouble, better to move out now while he can and reschedule for after the dust has the time to settle. Third of, there is absolutely no benefit in Adolin saving this woman, the idea he did for his reputation is projecting thoughts into the character on no valid ground basis. Lighteyes do not lower themselves to rescue prostitute: saving her is not increasing his reputation, it is damaging it. It makes him appear weak as opposed to commanding: no one behaves this way. It was a very un-Alethi thing to do. It was something Evi would have done, but be laughed for afterwards. So yeah, really the desire to want Adolin to be an immoral person because he killed Sadeas is really pushing it thin. I guess I could write so much more, but it's become a moot point for me lately.
  11. I just feel the term sociopathy is a very strong one which implies very radical behavior or to me it does. I also do not believe Adolin expressed sociopathy because he didn't feel remorse on killing Sadeas: this murder was one he felt he needed to do, not for pleasure, not for fun, but to keep the people he loves alive. As such, I don't think sociopathy applies here.
  12. I wanna believe too. Been around in the 90s? I really want to believe, but Brandon has proven one thing which writing OB was he resolutely was focused onto the main narrative. It is one aspect of writing he often broached within his classes and conventions, how his goal was to write an epic fantasy which doesn't get bloated, which doesn't stall. He feels the secret recipe to achieve it is to never lose focus of the main narrative, it is to never divert his attention towards the side arcs and, as such, we cannot expect the story to focus on Adolin's internal issues unless they allow Adolin to grow in a way the main narrative needs him to. However since he isn't a main protagonist, there aren't very strong chances this may happen. Hence, while I do agree with you Adolin, by all means, should have a very negative reaction towards finding out the extend of his father's involvement within his mother's death, I would not bet a great deal lot of eggs Brandon will go there. Moreover, I do think knowing his mother died burned alive as opposed to just "murdered", knowing she suffered, knowing it wasn't quick, but instead horrible, should be a shock, a terrible shock. BUT if it doesn't fit within the bigger narrative, if it serves no purpose (and so far Adolin's inner issues haven't served any purpose), then it is unlikely to go much further down the: "Oh bags" kind of reaction. I have been there, I have gotten my expectations very high for Oathbringer only to see them get crushed into tinier pieces as the release date got nearer. Right after we finished WoR, a majority of readers thought Adolin was a much more important character than the author ever intended him to be. At the time, we didn't know the name of all the flashback characters, we all, well most of us, expected Adolin to be one of those characters, so guess the disappointment when it turned out being Shalash who filled the last open spot. Imagine how crushing it was to know Jasnah, Lift, Renarin and basically every single name character of lesser importance (according the narrative we had read so far) were getting it, but not Adolin? Argh, this was so frustrating. Then I convinced myself it meant nothing, I convinced myself not getting a flashback didn't mean a character couldn't grow and be important into the narrative. Four years of speculation, character analysis and theories, great work, fun work, but so little pay-off in the end. As such, living the story the way we want it, hoping it will turn somewhere closer to where we want it may make us create unwarranted expectations or think the author we are reading is.. different. To be a sociopath Adolin would need to have absolutely no moral conscience: not feeling guilty over one murder is not enough. Adolin felt justified to kill Sadeas because Sadeas was trying to harm Dalinar. He needs no additional justification. Moash is completely different situation: he wants revenge for his grand-parents death and, as such, is targeting the man being indirectly responsible for it. The major difference is Elhokar does not have a personal vendetta against Moash's family, he probably doesn't even know who he is. Nobody Moash knows is at risk nor is being threatened: he just wants revenge. Adolin is much different because the threats are real and are being made against people he loves for no valid reasons. Both characters motivations are entirely different and what Adolin did needs not be an "ending", it could also be a "journey": it depends what he does with it. My personal wish would be for the narrative to focus more on Adolin than on Dalinar (which is why I loved WoR so much) because I find the son more interesting than the father. So while it is realistic to expect Adolin's vision of his father to shatter upon hearing the truth, we are again putting much faith into a relationship issue which is unlikely to matter nor to be important. I love making stories into my head. Years ago, I had insomnia and I couldn't sleep. Reenacting stories, making them, fueling them really helped take the focus out of the "real-life stuff" which kept being bugged into my head. Not being an author, I rely on other people to come up with stories I like and characters I find both engaging and interesting. Stormlight Archive First off, you never have to apologize for writing lost posts: as one writer of long posts my take has always been, if others don't want to read it, they'll skip it and won't quote it. There are however chances many are enjoying the posts and reading them. I will respond to this briefly, are we projecting too much onto Adolin? Quite probably. We are reading too much into his character: he is what we see. As such, I do think there isn't anything more to Adolin then what Brandon has written. He is a good, steady, normal guy who's had a crap childhood, but is really so earnest he pushed through it unscathed. There is hidden brutality or blood-thirst as others have mentioned, if anything Adolin, by the end of the book, has started to be more and more like Evi, not more and more like a barbarian or a hunter waiting for his prey. This is reading too much into the character and projecting into him, this is projecting thoughts of Adolin being more than meets the eyes this is projecting Sadeas is not an isolate case happening because of dire circumstances but the expression of a hidden dark Adolin. Adolin is exactly what he appears to be: yes he genuinely saved the prostitute, yes he genuinely cares about the people he meets. Yes, he has had failure, minor ones, but he isn't a guy who gets bogged on them, he moves on. Always. No matter what it is. The mask he wears is not authenticity, it is the blind faith he has towards his father if mask this can be called. He wants to please other people, this is true, but it doesn't dither him from his tasks. He also absolutely is not a predator nor a hunter: he hates hunting nor does he have much in common with Snape. This is projecting into the character elements which aren't into the narrative. The narrative is explicit on the matter: Adolin is not a hunter, he is not evil nor does he have inclinations towards falling prey to Odium, he is exactly what we have read so far. So this was my grain of salt: the missing POV for Adolin didn't go missing to hide anything (like Renarin), they didn't go missing to foreshadow anything, the went missing because Brandon didn't think he needed to write them.
  13. My undying love for Adolin hasn't really done me much good: I am still stuck trying to make up story arcs for his character, within my head, to compensate for the ones we didn't get. And I am not really good at that. My post wasn't meant to be wishful thinking, if you read carefully, it was meant to warn others from having too much wishful thinking. I was seeing a lot of it in this thread which is why I wrote it. I definitely agree with you OB really shrinks Adolin down to a side character of some importance, but a static character. This is basically what I am broaching within my other post: the fact it seems obvious to me Brandon's intend, with Adolin, is to use him as a steady normal guy to offer comical relief when needed and reliability when also needed. He's not meant to struggle, he is not a character which will struggle or fail: he'll just always do his best at everything life throws at him and he won't mind things no matter what they are. He is meant to be the unchanging character in a cast which keeps changing. And that's a terrible waste of a character if anyone asks for my opinion. I don't find characters use in such fashion, even characters I don't love as much as Adolin, interesting. It is a ploy I hate when authors are using it, tossing it a posse who does nothing but fill the hole left by the other character. You need a guy to take over? You have Adolin. You need someone to win a battle because your protagonist is too busy having an existence crisis? You've got Adolin. So about your questions... My take is Adolin is avoiding responsibility for killing a Highprince because this Highprince threatened his father. It all comes back to Dalinar whom, to Adolin's eyes, can do not wrong. Dalinar is God to Adolin and, as such, he cannot take other people may not see him as God. Therefore, Adolin not taking responsibility for murdering Sadeas is not a sign of sociopathy, but a sign of him thinking he is just as justified in killing Sadeas as he would be in killing an enemy soldier on a battlefield. The man attacked Dalinar. Period. To Adolin nothing else matters. My take on Adolin not wanting to be king is him just him asserting himself next to Dalinar. He never wanted to be king. I don't think he is running away from his responsibility, I think he is saying: "I will not take everything you throw at me just because it come from you.". Ideally, this could lead to a rift in between Adolin and Dalinar, but seeing how Brandon handled Adolin, I wouldn't bet a great deal lots of eggs on it. All in all, I don't think these elements are signs of Adolin going down an "evil" path. Odium festered on Amaram feeling guilty and not wanting this guilt: he did not want to feel it, he want someone else to be responsible for his actions. Adolin isn't within the same situation. He has no guilt. He owns his actions. He doesn't want anyone to take them away from him.
  14. I don't understand the last comment: Kaladin is a typical Alethi, he should look like a very typical Alethi. It is Adolin and Renarin who look more caucassian than the average Alethi because of their caucassian mother.
  15. I couldn't disagree more with your statement on Adolin being a sociopath: sociopathy requires one to have no moral conscience and a lack of social responsibility. Yes, Adolin doesn't feel remorse over killing Sadeas, but this does not make him a sociopath: Dalinar doesn't feel remorse over the soldiers he killed during his blood rage either. Adolin shows social conscience on various other instances such as when he saves the boy, when he cares for other human beings, worst when Adolin killed Sadeas, he did it for Dalinar. On Adolin psych 101, he will NOT tolerate any harm be it physical or psychological or theoretical done to his mighty glorious father no matter what it may be. As soon as Dalinar's safety, well-being, grandness and how others are viewing Dalinar are concerned, Adolin will do ANYTHING to prevent it from being stained. This is exactly the unhealthy relationship I wanted OB to focus some on by having Adolin being the focus on it and not Dalinar. As for my statement, it was meant to be ironic. Adolin is not a shining beacon of perfection but, as far as I can tell, it is the author's intend to write him as such, to present him as such and to use him as such. What more the character could be is likely to remain within the pages of this forum.