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      Oathbringer Spoiler Policy   11/13/2017

      Oathbringer is out! Let's make our policy on spoilers clear! 1. You must preface topics with Oathbringer spoilers with the prefix [OB] in the front 2. You are only allowed to post spoilers and spoiler topics in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board, Cosmere Theories, and some select work-related forums. 3. For posts in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board you do not need to use spoiler tags inside a topic marked [OB]. For Cosmere Theories, you also do not need to put spoiler tags inside your topic if the topic has [OB] in the title. However, for Cosmere Theories, if you are adding Oathbringer stuff to an old theory without the [OB] tag, those must go in spoiler tags and you must make it obvious outside the spoiler tag that the spoiler is regarding Oathbringer content. 4. For select things that do require talking about OB spoilers, in Events, Coppermind, and Arcanum forums, those are allowed but keep OB spoilers in spoiler tags 5. Avoid and minimize spoilers in topic titles--even though those two boards will not appear in the Recent Topics ticker, topic titles still appear in Recent Activity and the forum home.  6. You aren't allowed to post Oathbringer spoilers in places other than listed, even with spoiler tags.  It will be nine months and then the Oathbringer board will be re-merged with the Stormlight board and you will not need to tag these spoilers. If you'd like to move something in the Stormlight Archive board to the Oathbringer board, to update it with new Oathbringer information, Report the post and we will happily move it to the Oathbringer spoiler board. Part-by-part Reactions Though the Oathbringer Spoiler Board will be very spoilery, very fast (maybe don't come there until you've read the book, as people do have copies that bookstores sold early), you'll have these five topics for reactions if you want to nerd out: Part 1 Reactions
      Part 2 Reactions
      Part 3 Reactions
      Part 4 Reactions
      Full Book Reactions For parts 1-4, they will not include the interludes immediately following it. On Discord All Oathbringer spoilers on Discord will be exclusively in the #oathbringer_spoilers channel for the nine month spoiler period and nowhere else.

kaellok

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About kaellok

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    Pacific Northwest
  • Interests
    Reading. Writing. Teaching. Playing games! Video games, board games, tugging at the strings that all people have so that they dance to my will.

    Not murdering people. I have developed a large number of strategies to NOT murder people. Some of my closest friends are equal parts relieved and horrified at the number of people I haven't killed. (There was a year there where they were concerned that the number of people I have killed would exceed 0. Then I quit my job, and everything has been better.)

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  1. i liked him better in WoK and WoR. In OB, we find out how stupid the Diagram's point really is--fight annihilation by capitulating to its author? The question before was, "Wow, I wonder if Mr T's alternate method of saving the world, in comparison to the Radiant's, will actually work!" Now it is, "Just how many people will be killed because of this useless plan?" Really not understanding any love for Mr T's long-term plans post-OB.
  2. What about Sylpatterdin?
  3. I've always thought that the rattles are necessarily chosen by Odium and co, so much as concurrently heard by them. Slight Warbreaker spoiler (And a side-question: what would happen if Nale used his healing fabrial on someone as they were having a death rattle?)
  4. I think OB suffers too much from "middle-book syndrome" to be the best. Add to that general expectations for it to be better than WoR which was better than WoK, and it feels worse by comparison than it actually is, imo. Also, while WoK and WoR have some truly wonderful scenes, in my mind OB only has some wonderful moments. Those moments don't last as long as a scene, and so my feeling of wonder and awe don't last as long; when I go back for a re-read of them, the moment is quickly found and gone again. WoR has Shallan with Hoid when she's a child; Shallan and Adolin go to the Zoo with Kaladin, plus Hoid!; and of course the Chasm Scenes, which is one of my favorite scenes written in any book ever. WoK has Shallan going mad from being stalked by spren, and the Battle at the Tower. Both have their small wonderful moments, although nothing compared to Dalinar's "I am Unity" or Teft's "I will protect those that I hate, even if I am the one that I hate the most [paraphrased]". WoK is strong and great, and while I'm in general more upset at WoR than I am with WoK because of reasons I went into at great length after its release, I love it for far more reasons. OB is a fine book, but imo a solid 7 standing next to a couple of 9s.
  5. I find it incredible to believe that at no point between Aharetium and the Recreance that Honor never told the Radiants, "The Heralds lied, and Desolations are not over--they're only paused." He created the set of incredibly elaborate illusions for a future Bondsmith, but didn't spend even a couple of minutes in a time period to be measured in +/- thousands of years? Like, Honor took the time to freak out the Radiants that their unchecked use of powers when he was dead would destroy the world--this happened, according to OB. But that was while he was dying. Prior to that he just let everyone chill and think things were done and good? I don't buy it. What probably really happened (as I've mentioned in other threads) is that there were a large number of things coming to light at once that hit each of the Orders differently, in a specifically calculated way that would result in them losing faith in themselves. Windrunners finding out that the Bondsmith was going to lobotomize an entire race of people that were actually the original inhabitants would probably do for them, but I don't see Lightweavers caring all that much about it in comparison (sure, maybe they would think it was a bad idea, but stuff happens). Dustbringers especially I don't see casting aside their faith and their Oaths because of either of those actions. We see how the Urithiru coalition was brought low through a perfectly coordinate plan of attack, and Kaladin says that he doesn't think it was any one thing happening which caused the Recreance. I'm convinced that the Coalition Collapse occurring in the way it does is an attempt to give readers context of how the Recreance happened. While I think that there was more to the Recreance than what we have seen (because what we saw doesn't make a storming bit of sense), without actually seeing the context of how the revelations played out and what the Radiants were actually like it will always seem like some sort of nonsense. At least with the Coalition Collapse and Kaladin's Thoughts(tm), we are reminded: the old Knights Radiant were people first and last, and there was a great deal of politics involved as well. The Recreance needs to be analyzed through that specific lens.
  6. The parsh were the Dawnsingers. Near the end of tWoK, Honor says, "A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And...without the Dawnshards...Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone." (Note that the ellipses are part of the direct quote.) I had always taken it to mean that the Dawnshards were some ancient and powerful weapon that the humans had--but knowing who the Dawnsingers actually are, and reading the few sentences with that lens, it could also mean that the Dawnshards had been in service to Odium, but something was done by Honor to prevent them from being used (easily). It's a bit of a stretch, but I think it's plausible that the Dawnshards were Voidish in origin, but Honor blocked them away. @Stormfather-in-Law, I'm not convinced that the Shards are being taken in order to be wielded. They're still fairly significant amounts of Investiture, and Odium seems like the kind of person petty enough to go to extreme lengths to defile and destroy the remnants of a powerful foe that thwarted him for a long time. Honor might be dead, but His power isn't gone, and Odium is probably doing what he can to make sure it doesn't pool back together again.
  7. @Ookla the Obtuse Thanks for the clarification! My own post evolved a bit as I was reading yours and some replies, but I kinda started off with the wrong assumption and then tried to build backward to be compatible with both. Towards Szeth, that was an embarrassing typo; I meant to say that he believed what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway. I disagree with your interpretation of Elhokar being willfully ignorant, though. True, he is king, but hardly a powerful one. Each Highprince has a substantial portion of power and influence over shaping the nation, irregardless of what the king wants or demands. Elhokar has likely been surrounded since birth by those that want to use his position for their own gain. It has been the rare occasion where Elhokar is able to see that a different path is even possible to be walked. I don't want to derail the thread into talking about Szeth too much more, as I was only mentioning him to show an arc where I simply do not believe that it is possible for him to ever earn the redemption that it is fairly clear (storytelling wise) we will see an attempt at. Already the gears have been set in motion for the arc to continue forth. The contrast I see with Szeth and Elhokar is that one of them knows the proper path, but allows himself to be diverted onto a path that is wrong or dangerous with terrible outcomes for the entire world--and to me, it matters not what those reasons are. Elhokar is only barely beginning to be aware that that proper path exists, and wants to walk it. Perhaps he wants to for the wrong reasons, especially at first (as evidenced by the quote you share from WoR), but by OB it is fairly clear that he thinks he is doing what is best for his people. Even with his huge blind-spot of Aesudan, even though he is wrong, he still thinks what he is doing is right--and because he does not trust himself, he has laid out a contingency plan to see to it that the right thing is done regardless. That, more than anything, to me shows that he has earned at least the benefit of the doubt of redemption. Did he succeed in it? Was he done? Was there more that he could or should have done? Yes. Moash decided to not let him, though, and story-wise, this was the right decision.
  8. In OB, Shallan asks Pattern what he thinks of Hoid; Pattern responds that Hoid seems like one of them (spren). Spren act according to their nature, unless they have been corrupted, and in that case, they act according to their corrupted nature. I think it likely that the Heralds are very akin to a corrupted spren at this point. With all of the Investiture imbued within them and millions of people that literally worship them, plus millions more that revere them in different ways, I can't see how that wouldn't have made an impact on them in a similar (if lesser) way than how the Stormfather was changed by the same belief systems.
  9. I had read the one sample chapter from Kaladin waaaaay back when on his trip to Hearthstone, and that was it. I had very carefully avoided any place that might have any potential spoilers for the story, so that way I could get a fresh read and clean experience. There is a lot to be said for how knowing the general path a thing takes and some of the twists and turns to expect can lead to a greater enjoyment of a thing--but there's also a lot to be said for going in completely blind and experiencing it for yourself first-hand for the first time as it is happening. When I can, for things that I am 90% sure I'll love, I try to do it that way. After all, I can always read the book again or see the movie again to get the 'familiar' experience. SO, I had no idea Vivenna was in OB. But at this point I knew that it was someone from Warbreaker-land like Vasher. It wasn't until Nightblood was talking to Szeth about Vivenna that I realized who it must be. Finished book, came to boards, saw that I was actually right--and had missed about a dozen other Worldhoppers (or maybe more).
  10. It's lovely seeing a thread like this when there's a few with hundreds of replies seemingly doing nothing more than attacking Shallan. I like Shallan a lot because we have had similar childhood experiences and developed similar coping mechanisms. (OB she went quite a bit beyond me, though, so there is that.) What I consider to be the best scene Sanderson has ever written, and I think one of the finer scenes that anyone has ever written, was because of Shallan. Of course I'm talking about the Chasm scene in WoR. Take anyone else, real or imaginary, and replace Shallan with them--and the scene suffers for it. As @Ookla the Grey said, Shallan continually inspires people by showing them who they can be. What an amazing thing! When I have been the most depressed in life, one of the main thoughts was "I don't know how to be other than who I am" (which is actually sad-funny, because who I am changes depending on the situation and who I am around, but mostly I was meaning that I don't know how to not do that). I imagine that I'm hardly unique with those thoughts, and here comes Shallan showing people that they can be different and better. Shallan is driven to do. Even as a child she was doing things to make life better for her brothers. Now she is doing things to make life better for most of Roshar (sorry-not-sorry Fused). Oh, and Pattern. Still the best spren, and I don't say that lightly-- Syl was my favorite character in WoK.
  11. (Just as a note: I'm not sure what you're saying or asking for us in your edit in the first post. Are you saying you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar is deserving of redemption? Or that you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar has earned redemption?) I think that Elhokar is deserving of the redemption arc that he was given. We see very clearly as far back as WoR that he knows things are wrong and that he isn't the person the nation needs, but he doesn't know how to be that person. Every action he makes, every sentence he speaks in OB is directed at being the person that is needed, but taking into consideration what will happen when he fails. Not if; when. He himself makes that distinction so very, very clear. How anyone can say that someone who knows that they have done wrong and is actively doing absolutely everything that could possibly be expected of anyone to be better isn't deserving of any redemption at all is shocking to me. In comparison, I personally find the Szeth redemption arc to be one that I have a hard time stomaching. The man willfully and wantonly committed murder and brutality on an unprecedented scale because his religious beliefs demand that he do what a man holding a rock said. Szeth did not think what he was doing was wrong; he predicted the chaos and devastation that would come. And he did it anyway. For me, if someone cannot recognize what they are doing, I will judge them less harshly than if they can. Ignorance is not an excuse, but it can often be a mitigating factor. It can be incredibly difficult to know how to walk the path if there is no guide (or worse, thousands of poor guides). To know the path, and refuse to walk it? No matter your intent, no matter your goals, no matter the end result--I will never forgive them. Was Elhokar's redemption complete? No. But I really do believe that he had been acting on it in very real ways throughout the entirety of OB; he had paid the first 100 pence of a 10,000 talent debt to refer to the conversation @Ookla the Obtuse and @Lightning were having. His debt was so very large and he was ill equipped to pay much of what he owed, but he had definitely shown that he was wanting to pay it to the people who he owed the most--the citizens of his country. If he hadn't, then he would still be alive, in Urithiru.
  12. Wait. Does Lift think that he is awesome, or amazing? THE WORD MATTERS! If she thinks he is awesome, then she thinks he's a Radiant, and since he clearly isn't at that point then everything she says should be discounted and mistrusted (although even liars and fools tell the truth sometimes, whether on purpose to trick us or on accident). On the other hand, if she thinks that Hoid is SynonymOfAwesomeButNotThatSpecificWord, then it means that either he does not have a nice butt, or she was not able to see it, and her judgment on that specific matter may not be final. When is the next signing? We need an answer regarding this soon!
  13. Also @FuzzyWordsmith I've been looking at this thread every now and then, but haven't voiced my opinions because of a few different reasons: 1. The conversation moves fast, with lots of active updates. Why am I going to drag the conversation back to something that was active 3 days ago, and 9 days ago, and 2 weeks ago, but is on something completely different right now? 2. There are a lot of people that are anti-Shallan on this thread. They have different reasons for it, whether based on the writing, or the romance, or just not liking her as a person, or what have you. How they feel is fine. But I fought this fight in WoR to get people to have a better understanding of what was occurring with Shallan, and I just don't feel like fighting it again, certainly not when the feeling is as entrenched as it seems to be at this point in this thread. 3. The most active posters have generally the same opinion, with only disagreements on relatively small things. I have not read the entirety of the thread, so maybe I am getting that wrong. There are entire pages that I didn't even glance at. From what I can recall, though, the people still actively posting in this thread are by and large the ones that have been throughout, and there hasn't been any major change in thought throughout. Nobody is going to change their mind. No sudden understanding will occur to make them look at things in a different light. 4. People probably really do see this as primarily a romance thread because that's what the title HEAVILY implies. 5. Looking at how heavily upvoted many posts are makes it harder to make counter-arguments, especially weeks after the fact. In case it wasn't clear, I'm not faulting anybody for anything at all--y'all are doing nothing at all wrong. I'm just explaining why I have been reluctant to post in this thread, and since I'm insanely self-centered, I assume others not posting or not posting much in this thread are doing so for similar reasons.
  14. Except that Rysn decides that she does want to have the ship and go traveling. Also, that was her mentor's wish for her, right before he was brutally murdered in front of her eyes; I'm sure that she would want to honor his memory by fulfilling his wish for her. On the other hand, it could be very interesting to see a Radiant who is also a paraplegic, but I don't think that an Interlude character would be the best way to explore that possibility. A Skybreaker or Windrunner would make for some very interesting contrast--someone who can fly, but not walk.
  15. I like this theory, except that if Rysn were to become a Bondsmith she would be able to heal her paralysis--and then she would be stuck in Urithiru, when what she really wants is to travel. Although, that would make for good character development as she struggles with that and...yes. I have changed my mind, I just straight up like the idea of this theory (even though I find it unlikely).