• Announcements

    • Chaos

      Oathbringer Spoiler Policy   11/13/2017

      Oathbringer is out! Let's make our policy on spoilers clear! 1. You must preface topics with Oathbringer spoilers with the prefix [OB] in the front 2. You are only allowed to post spoilers and spoiler topics in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board, Cosmere Theories, and some select work-related forums. 3. For posts in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board you do not need to use spoiler tags inside a topic marked [OB]. For Cosmere Theories, you also do not need to put spoiler tags inside your topic if the topic has [OB] in the title. However, for Cosmere Theories, if you are adding Oathbringer stuff to an old theory without the [OB] tag, those must go in spoiler tags and you must make it obvious outside the spoiler tag that the spoiler is regarding Oathbringer content. 4. For select things that do require talking about OB spoilers, in Events, Coppermind, and Arcanum forums, those are allowed but keep OB spoilers in spoiler tags 5. Avoid and minimize spoilers in topic titles--even though those two boards will not appear in the Recent Topics ticker, topic titles still appear in Recent Activity and the forum home.  6. You aren't allowed to post Oathbringer spoilers in places other than listed, even with spoiler tags.  It will be nine months and then the Oathbringer board will be re-merged with the Stormlight board and you will not need to tag these spoilers. If you'd like to move something in the Stormlight Archive board to the Oathbringer board, to update it with new Oathbringer information, Report the post and we will happily move it to the Oathbringer spoiler board. Part-by-part Reactions Though the Oathbringer Spoiler Board will be very spoilery, very fast (maybe don't come there until you've read the book, as people do have copies that bookstores sold early), you'll have these five topics for reactions if you want to nerd out: Part 1 Reactions
      Part 2 Reactions
      Part 3 Reactions
      Part 4 Reactions
      Full Book Reactions For parts 1-4, they will not include the interludes immediately following it. On Discord All Oathbringer spoilers on Discord will be exclusively in the #oathbringer_spoilers channel for the nine month spoiler period and nowhere else.


Popular Content

Showing content with the highest reputation since 12/08/2017 in all areas

  1. 35 points
    Preface: The most part of it is solidly grounded in facts and WoBs. You can rely on it. Some part of it is reasonable speculation, so you should not treat is as a fact, but like a theory. Sorry it's so long. The Letters. The one in The Way of Kings was written by Hoid to Frost (WoB), and the one in Words of Radiance was Frost's response to Hoid. The Letters are written after events of First Mistborn Era (WoB). In Oathbringer we got three: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters#Oathbringer_Letters What can we conclude about the identities of the writers and recipient? Well, the first thing is that two of them are adressed to Cephandrius - known as Hoid's alias - and the Third to "Dear Friend", but it's commonly assumed it's also adressed to Hoid. The Third writer almost certainly is Harmony. But my interests are in the First and Second. First, some WoBs on the topic: What are the Shards we have seen or know of? Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Harmony - Ruin & Preservation (Vessel: Sazed) Endowment (Vessel: Edgli) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Odium (Vessel: Rayse) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) The last two are questionable, as Brandon may be refering to the knowledge from books and not necessarily from WoBs. But then we have another WoB that will help us narrow down the identity of the first writer: What are the worlds we have seen? Taldain Sel Scadrial Nalthis Roshar (depending on how you understand "have seen" - also Ashyn and Braize) Threnody First of the Sun Well, this excludes Shard not on a planet and possibly Ambition, as Ambition is not on Threnody. I also doubt the Shard that is hiding is on the First of the Sun, but we'll get to that later. With Harmony having written the Third and the First Letter mentioning Rayse, Aona, Skai and Uli Da by name, we're left with: Autonomy Endowment Honor (dead and Splintered) Cultivation Judging by the fact that the Letter is supposedly a response for Hoid's plea for help against Rayse and that the writer is dissapointed that so few of the Shards kept to the agreement of not interfering with each other, we can also remove Cultivation. Which leaves us with two possible candidates: Autonomy Endowment If we believe Khriss words in Taldain essay about Autonomy's interference with other planets, it leaves us with Endowment as having written the First Letter. The Third Letter is written almost certainly by Harmony (I say that just because Brandon did not outright confirm that in a WoB but I doubt it's not Harmony). Second Letter So we need to update our list of who might have written the Second Letter. It also mentions Rayse, so we can cross out Odium: Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) Well, that's still a lot, isn't it? Well, let's assume that these Letters are really responses to Hoid's plea for help against Odium. It doesn't make sense then that he'd write to Rosharan Shards. We can cross out Cultivation and Honor (who is also very, very, very dead at the time of Oathbringer). The Letter in The Way of Kings also mentions Aona and Skai being dead and their Shards Splintered, so I think we can reasonably assume nobody has Ascended to them since. Which leaves us with... Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) At that point there is no much to go off of - unless we assume Brandon in that first WoB up there at the beginning of this wall of text meant the Shards we know from books, not WoBs. Which leaves us with only two: Autonomy and Ambition. I'm gonna analyse each separately. But first, a WoB on the topic: The line "That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic." probably refers to an earlier WoB in that event which confirmed that all Investiture in Cosmere is associated with a Shard, even if it was not on Yolen on the time of the Shattering. It got assigned to Shards, but it's not part of what the Vessel of the Shard commands. Two important things that we can take from this WoB: First of the Sun has Investiture that is directly associated with a Shard and the island Patji is a Shard. With big asterisk. one of the letters in Oathbringer references First of the Sun Reading through the letters, the only one left that can reference any place is the Second Letter. (Unless we take " I noticed your many intrusions into my land " from the First Letter as reference to First of the Sun, but that's another can of worms, one I do not intend to open). It's either the place the writer is or the Obrodai that's being referenced. For now, let's analyse possibilities of Autonomy and Ambition. Autonomy Certainly a fan favorite, if I may say so. Many of us believe it's Autonomy, and there are certain clues that point to it, although some of that fierce conviction seems to be based on the assumption that the Shard assaulting Scadrial during the Second Mistborn Era is Autonomy. Not an unreasonable assumption, given what we know of Autonomy meddling with other worlds (if Khriss essay on Taldain is to be believed), having multiple religions or having entire pantheons where every worshipped god is actually Bavadin. Especially the last one seems to point in that direction, when you remember that the islands that Patji is part of are called Pantheon. Some people believe that Autonomy's modus operandi of creating personas is the reason for why the Letter is written by a collective. It's reasonable, but personally I doubt it - there's one thing in crafting personas and letting them attract attention, but it's not a reason for Autonomy to actually be a mind collective. Which leads us to... Ambition That is my favorite. Yes, Uli Da is dead, and Ambition is Splintered (WoB). But... Splintering can be a vague term sometimes. And we've seen Ambition's influence (which most of us ascribe to Shades of Threnody) and things that happened with Ambition have had ramifications across many places in the cosmere. Recently Brandon added that "this specific Splintering has had far-reaching effects" (WoB). From essay on First of the Sun we know Khriss is certain there is no Shard there... but her essays are more contemporary (sometime after Ascension of Harmony, and definitely long before Sixth of the Dusk happens: #1 #2) and she does not know what we know about First of the Sun: #1 #2. That is weird: ... since now Brandon has stated that Patji is a Shard. (With big asterisk). Hm... What if Ambition is not on a planet... what if it's on planets? What if Ambition's Splinters - maybe larger than the usual Splinters like spren or seons or skaze, but instead massive like Unmade, Nightwatcher or even Stormfather - have formed a collective mind? It would explain why the writer is speaking like a group. Let's see what is said in the Letter: It implies mutliple beings. They are hiding part of their being on a world and were surprised and are intrigued how Hoid has managed to locate them there. It would explain why Khriss is certain there is no Shard there - there is just a Splinter and it actively hides its presence. They have many realms. They wish to be alone. They do not believe in interfering with another Shards - does it fit the meddling Autonomy? I don't think so. Admiration of his initiative - it would be strange if it's Ambition, right? Since Odium has mortally wounded Ambition. But... Preservation admired Rashek just because he did not change. Even though he was a tyrant and responsible for many deaths, it was a quality to be admired. Why then cannot Ambition admire Odium's initiative and will to act? They have claimed a world - for me it fits Ambition to claim multiple worlds, to add it to their many realms. If it was Autonomy, why an avatar is beginning to manifest? Autonomy's personas are more of a masks Bavadin dons. And the new avatar was instilled with some preference - it suggests truly another mind, part of Ambition's collective, and not just a persona Autonomy uses. This reeks of Ambition to me - for Hoid to be deemed worthy of further communication, he must prove himself by overcoming tests (perhaps getting to Patji's eye?). It's only fitting that one can earn Ambition's respect by overcoming obstacles - it's a proof of your determination, will to act, drive... ambition. tl;dr: Harmony almost certainly wrote the Third Letter, the First one was written likely by Endowment and Second Letter was written either by Autonomy or Ambition (and I personally think the latter).
  2. 23 points

    From the album The Knight Radiant

    As I promised this is the other version of the image. This actually was the main idea, but in the end I like both images, so I decide to upload them both. Of course the Shardplate`s design took me more time to finish. And the Shardblade`s materialization effect was a pain in a dark place of mine but here it is. Eshonai armored!
  3. 21 points
    I thought it might be fun to write our own scenes for the 1 year time gap between Oathbringer and book 4. Here's mine. It will of course be a Lift scene, because, it's mine! Please add your own. "Okay, it's been three weeks since Thaylenah, you've all had a chance to begin your assignments, and I need to know what progress you've made. Captain Kal..." Dalinar began. "Umm..." interrupted Lift. "Yes Lift?" asked Dalinar "Maybe we should break, you know, for lunch and stuff." suggested Lift. "Lift, we literally just ate breakfast. Right now. Shallan is still chewing hers, and the plates have not been cleared off the table." replied Dalinar. "Yeah" said Lift. "Yeah what?" asked Dalinar. "Yeah, we just ate breakfast" replied Lift. "Okay, I'm glad we sorted that out. Captain Kaladin, could you..." Dalinar began again. "What about lunch?" Lift asked hopefully. Dalinar sighed audibly "Renarin, could you please ask the kitchen staff to send Lift some lunch. Captain Kaladin, how is the training progressing with the new Wind runner recruits?" "Unfortunately sir, there have been some injuries. Nothing life threatening, but a number of recruits will be out of action for several weeks." replied Kaladin. "What happened?" enquired Dalinar. "The Lopen happened." Kaladin responded unenthusiastically. "He thought it would be a good idea to train adhesion by sticking new recruits to the ceiling and seeing who stays up the longest. Apparently it didn't occur to him that the tower has stone storming floors." "Fine." said Dalinar, visibly annoyed now. "We'll move on. Shallan, how is the training of your lightweaver squires progressing." "Umm, not much progress yet. We... I mean... I... umm..." Shallan blushed furiously and glanced at Adolin furtively before mumbling something inaudible. Dalinar rolled his eyes, "Right, well, just don't forget the whole apocalypse thing, okay? Szeth, any progress on the negotiations with Nale? Will he agree to join our side?" "Of course Dalinar-son-god. You have said it must be." replied Szeth. "Damnation, I told you a hundred times. I am not the son of god! Honor isn't even god!" shouted Dalinar. "Of course Dalinar-son-god, if you say it, it cannot be otherwise." replied Szeth characteristically dispassionately. Dalinar took a deep breath and ploughed ahead "So Nale has agreed to come to our side?" "Not yet Dalinar-son-god." replied Szeth. "But you literally JUST said he was coming to our side!" exploded Dalinar. "Yes, you have told me this is true." replied Szeth. "Did you let it back out?" asked Lift. "Let what back out?" asked Dalinar, perplexed. "The red angry thing. You're kind of red and angry. You're old though. Old people are often red and angry. I can't tell." Lift replied, stabbing another pancake with her shardfork. Dalinar slumped back in his chair. "I give up, we're not getting anywhere here. I supposed I can take some solace in the fact that your collective efforts make my attempts at diplomacy look storming inspired by god." "This is only right Dalinar-son-god." replied Szeth, earning a further glare. "Tomorrow, same time. I want to hear actual progress then!" said Dalinar dismissively. "WAIT!" shouted Lift. "Yes Lift?" asked Dalinar. "What about dinner?" she enquired.
  4. 20 points
    (Bit of a serious one, but this is the scene I am sad will get skipped) Shallan's eyes flickered between the two Kholin brothers as they processed their Father's words. Dalinar had stumbled through the terrible truth of their Mother's death, not daring to look either boy in the eye. As the story came to an end he looked up, but his eyes locked onto Shallan's. She recognised the pain contained within, it visited her in the mirror everyday. Killing someone you loved left a distinctive mark. Renarin stared at his knees, his fingers tightening around the chain which he had pulled from the pocket of his shinny new Bridge 4 jacket. Adolin looked up, his eye hollow and cold. Shallan reached out her safe hand and rested it on his shouder. Finally Adolin spoke, his voice cracking like he was a young boy again. "Why are you telling us now?" Dalinar looked back at Adolin. "I sought the Nightwatcher. To forget. I didn't want to remember. But now I do, I knew you needed to know. The truth about her. The truth about me." Pattern gave a nervous hum from Shallan's skirt. Shallan shook her head. No. Forgetting as he had sounded tempting . But she would not take back her truths. Adolin stood, his fists white. "I can't. I need time to think Father. Let's go." Shallan joined him and they walked towards the door. But she paused as Renarin stood and stepped towards his Father, chain falling to the floor. He put out his hand, as if to summon his blade. "No." But Shallan stopped as Renarin placed his hand onto his Father's drooping shoulder. "Father, I am so sorry. The pain you must feel." His eyes were bright, but not with stormlight. "We can help you bear it now." Shallan swallowed a sob as she turned back and followed her husband back down the hall."
  5. 18 points
    Theory: Ancient fabrials operate with the help of a willing, sentient spren. "Modern fabrials" are Stormlight-powered mechanisms that make use of a spren trapped in a gemstone. All of the details aren't entirely clear. We know the type of gem and spen matter. Some of them, at least, require you to press metal against the gem. Mysterious as it may be to us, the scholars of Roshar have it pretty well figured out. And yet they are totally stumped by so-called "ancient fabrials". We've seen several ancient devices with all kinds of specific and powerful uses. Devices that use Stormlight like a fabrial... And yet they don't require a trapped spren, and the means to create more of them are unknown. Soulcasters. Shardplate. Oathgates. So what's the deal? I think that they DO use spren. Just in a very different way. I don't think I've seen anybody talking about this. Honestly, I didn't give it much attention myself until I was recently reminded about something I had noticed in Kaza's interlude when Brandon read it earlier this year. If you look closely, a spren seems to be present when she uses her Soulcaster. When we put this together with everything else we saw in Oathbringer... I think the solution of how ancient fabrials becomes clear. I'm going to go through all of the so-called ancient fabrials that we know of and see what observations we can make. Soulcasters Again, the big revelation here is from Kaza's interlude: See that mention of "another will reinforcing her own"? I think it's a spren. Notably, the spren is "attracted by her request for aid". Recall that trapping spren for modern fabrials requires you to attract the spren: Interesting that this spren is also "attracted". But it isn't a slave. It came willingly, to help. It's unclear whether this particular spren is "attached" to Kaza's soulcaster, or whether it was simply a spren that happened to be nearby. You could interpret this different ways. Did a particular spren, or a particular group of spren, agree to be bound to the soulcaster? Or to come at the call of a Soulcaster? Perhaps it's not an agreement binding them at all, but rather their nature. They hear a Soulcaster's "request for aid" and just naturally want to join in. What kind of spren could this be? I'm skeptical that it's a Knight Spren, though that's a possibility. I'm more inclined to think that it is some spren related Soulcasting OR some spren related to the essence of smoke (which Kaza's device is attuned to). And on that note, it's also interesting that we see there are different "levels" of Soulcasters--some being more limited than others. This theory perfectly explains why in one of two ways. (1) Perhaps the more powerful Soulcasters are linked to multiple spren, each granting different types of Soulcasting. (2) Or perhaps the more powerful Soulcasters are linked to more powerful spren--one that is able to do more than the spren of lesser Soulcasters. Oathgates Okay, that's a nice theory for Soulcasters, but is there anything to back this up? Let me introduce you to these guys. We now know that the Oathgates each make use of two strange and powerful spren. Exactly what they do is hard to say, but they are obviously part of the device's functionality. The fact that the device is a fabrial is also obvious--Shallan makes the observation when they first discovered the Oathgate in Narak. You charge it with Stormlight, point it the way you want to go, and activate it. The Surgebinder's own spren, of course, isn't what makes the thing work. It's more of a key perhaps? In any case, another example of an ancient fabrial that uses a spren to work. It's notable that (in this case) the spren seem to have made an agreement to guard/operate the thing. They follow specific rules and don't seem to leave their location in Shadesmar. Urithiru Our characters have begun to speculate that Urithiru itself is one GIANT fabrial. We know so little about it, so there's not much to say here... We DO know that it is mostly (but not entirely) non-functional. We can only speculate as to what it should be doing, but records left by former Radiants confirm the notion that it used to be MORE somehow. Plus there are the oddities like the massive gemstone pillar that won't be infused, the strata on the walls... It isn't fully broken of course. One record notes that the artificial air pressure hasn't failed, even if the "climate control" hasn't, and this apparently still true. What do we know about how Urithiru operated? About why it stopped working? One answer: the Sibling. A spren heavily connected to the tower city. A spren which many are speculating "IS" the city. It will be interesting to see what Jasnah finds when she investigates the city in Shadesmar... An oddity?.... Or an ancient (very powerful) fabrial, making use of an ancient (very powerful) spren? Shardplate I'm proposing that Shardplate is actually an ancient fabrial. The resemblance to other ancient fabrials is notable. It's an ancient, powerful device that is powered by Stormlight, it doesn't use a trapped spren, and it seems to make use of the Surges. The popular theory on Shardplate of course is that they are the "cousin-spren" of the Surgebinder's Nahel bond spren. This theory doesn't negate that possibility. In fact, it may fill in the gaps of why Shardplate is so different from Shardblades. Why does Shardplate behave so differently in modern times? Great question... For that, I'd have to turn attention back to Urithiru. We have that city as an example for what happens when an ancient fabrial has stopped working at full functionality. Perhaps the same is happening with Shardplate? Unfortunately our brief visions of "properly working" Shardplate are limited in what they reveal. How might it work? Presumably it's an actual, physical device of some kind (not, I would propose, the "dead bodies" of lesser spren) that happens to be tied to one or more spren. Perhaps it's tied to the cousin spren. Perhaps some other spren. Perhaps multiple. Perhaps one. It's hard to say. We haven't seen into Shadesmar in the presence of Shardplate, yet, so we don't know if this/those spren are present with the Plate. But then if the Plate is "asleep" like Urithiru and the Sibling it's hard to guess what we would expect to see. Conclusion I feel like I need a conclusion... I don't have proof for this theory, but the evidence is (I think) pretty strong and consistent. I left out Regrowth fabrials simply because we know almost nothing about them besides the fact that they exist. The inclusion of Shardplate is the most questionable piece, but I think it fits. As an aside, I suppose it's worth mentioning Jah Keved's half-shards. In Oathbringer Chapter 100, Taravangian suggests that the half-shards make use of "true spren". This is a controversial statement, but however you interpret his words, it suggests that these modern fabrials are more powerful because they make use of more powerful spren. That is, I think, in line what the concepts here. It suggests perhaps that the difference between a half-shard and Shardplate is a sentient spren which cooperates rather than a spren which is enslaved. There are a LOT of follow-up questions to be asked... How are they made? What's the nature of the "bond" (if one exists) between fabrial and spren? Is it the same for all or can it be different? What types of spren are used? I'll leave those conversations to the rest of you.
  6. 18 points
    Boy there's a lot going on in this thread, huh? I've been debating whether or not it's a good idea to step into the boiling waters here, but what the heck, I'll throw my hat in the ring. I'm just going to try to broad strokes some things because I don't want to end up falling into writing a 2,000 word response. I have better things to do with my Sunday afternoon. If I oversimplify your points, please understand that it's not an attack or misrepresentation, just me trying to look at the big picture here. That said, I feel like a lot of the reason that this thread has shifted here is that there's a majority of Kaladin/Shallan shippers who are trying to elucidate why they feel Adolin is the wrong pick for Shallan, but from my perspective, this discussion ended up shifting in an echo chamber sort of way to a characterization of Adolin that I simply don't find tenable. Adolin as a sadist or a sociopath? I'm almost amused that a thread that could accuse him of being too much of a picture-perfect Prince Charming is also saying that he's a barely restrained rage monster who loves killing and seeing his victims suffer. Adolin's an incredibly moral character, from where I stand. He's deeply empathetic and naturally kind. He has a strong sense of right and wrong, but it doesn't always line up with his father's sense of right and wrong, which causes tension between them. His killing of Sadeas was not the first act of a potential serial killer or anything so macabre, it was a frustrated sense of vigilante justice. Sadeas was unquestionably a monster who tried, on multiple occasions, to not only kill Dalinar and Adolin, but also successfully murdered over half of the Kholin soldiers, innocent men who had absolutely nothing to do with the feud. And the Alethi justice system did nothing. Sadeas was untouchable, save for some very weird loopholes in a dueling match with a boon. Sadeas gloated in this and made it clear to Adolin that he wasn't ever going to stop, so... Adolin stopped him. This isn't a misplaced anger or a sign of moral deficiency, this is someone coming face-to-face with their attempted murdered who smiles at them and says "I'm going to try to murder you and everyone you love again and there's nothing you can do to stop me." So Adolin stops him. I don't think it was the wisest course of action, but I think the fallout in Oathbringer (or lack thereof) shows that the characters figured out what Adolin did in that moment: Sadeas needed to be dealt with and in this case, there wasn't an easy or clean way to do it. It's unfortunate that it came to knives in the dark, but well... it kind of needed to. It's not something I would have realized going into Oathbringer, but in hindsight, I don't think Sadeas' murder could have been the big crisis of conscience that some were expecting, because even though Adolin might have had the "am I a cold-blooded killer?" question kicking around, at some point someone would have said "okay yeah bud, you might have killed him, but he didn't really leave you any other choice." Perhaps that's the Skybreaker in me who feels that the legal system failed in Sadeas' case and Adolin killing him was a restoration of justice in this case, but that's just me. Brandon did say that Skybreakers would not find Adolin's actions objectionable, so that makes sense. That said, I don't necessarily think it means that this plot is entirely wrapped up just yet. The focus on Sadeas might be over, but I think we'll see more out of Adolin and struggling with this in the future. Perhaps it'll be a barrier that he has to work through in order to reawaken Maya, that she would be hesitant to respond to someone who did such a thing, as she starts coming back to life. Perhaps Adolin will have another moment of snapping and will attack or kill someone else, perhaps this time someone who isn't as much of an irredeemable monster as Sadeas was and he'll have to confront that. There's still possibilities. I don't think this one's fully resolved. However, what I do think is fully resolved is the love triangle, to drag this thread back on track. I'll admit, I was never a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and I ground my teeth through every one of their scenes in WoR and OB until the end. A lot of that had to do with the fact that I felt those scenes were set up in a very cliche way, and that we were exploring cliche scenes that seemed to paste a straightforward boy-meets-girl progression over a slew of dangerously unhealthy traumatic pasts and incompatibilities. I remember thinking in Words of Radiance that the only way I'd enjoy the Kaladin and Shallan scenes were if they were leading to a subversion. Which, it was, so in hindsight, I like those scenes a lot. In short, I should have trusted Brandon. I was afraid that he was ignoring the deeper issues between Kaladin and Shallan by fitting them into these puzzle-piece perfect relationship scenes. I feared that we were falling into a cookie-cutter plan without considering the true implications of it, and if that was what was happening, I was wholeheartedly against it. Thankfully, Brandon was on the same wavelength as me. Kaladin and Shallan were a subversion and though I was worried that they weren't going in that direction at first, now that I can see that they did, I think it turned out very well. Perhaps Words of Radiance was a bit on-the-nose with the Kaladin and Shallan set up, but in hindsight, the point of those scenes was to take two incompatible characters and run them through the steps of the romantic relationships, so that later, we could see why that setup was doomed to fail. The infamous "storms she smiled anyway" scene reads on the surface as a beautiful character moment (which drove me nuts because it was super unhealthy, right?). And yet, when we revisit that philosophy of Kaladin idolizing Shallan's dangerous coping mechanisms on the ship in Oathbringer, we see that as they tread that path once more, the conversation collapses as Shallan hears Kaladin tell her that he wishes he had what she considers to be her greatest flaw, and we see that Kaladin doesn't understand the true depths of how this has damaged her and how insidious her repression is. He buys the lie, he sees the smiles and the laughter and thinks its genuine. And of course he would. Kaladin wishes he could smile and laugh and thinks anything that allows Shallan to do that is a good thing, when both Shallan and the audience know it is exactly the opposite. Same with Shallan and Kaladin's "meet cute," the Boots scene, which again, on surface level seems like a hilarious comedy of errors sort of scene. Shallan's doing an outrageous accent, Kaladin's grumbly at having to deal with a stupid lighteyes, it means that they both start off on the wrong foot and will now how a hilarious reason to snipe at each other and have to bond through later in the chasms. Which, again, feels a bit RomCom 101, but also ignores the deeper meaning of a lighteyes playing games with a darkeyes she just met, simply because her rank allows her to do so. Taking the boots of a soldier while he's on a shift, especially on the contrived premise that she's foreign royalty to got offended by misunderstanding him, is a cruel action, but Shallan doesn't consider the implications for Kaladin as she's doing this. She's just having fun playing games with him and thinks that she wants shoes. If we were simply supposed to take the surface meet cute at face value and laugh at how humorous it is, then that's an issue, as we ignore the underlying truths and characterization of both Kaladin and Shallan and what this reveals about both of them as people. And yet, it's not just a surface meet cute. It is meant to be revelatory of their issues and show the problems between them, under the disguise of a normal, run-of-the-mill flirty ship scene. In hindsight, Brandon's set up of Kaladin and Shallan and their relationship arc, ending finally in them both accepting that they aren't right for each other is masterful, especially for an author like Brandon, whose strengths have never fallen in writing romances. That he wrote a great long-con amicably failed romance of two characters who initially seemed like they could work well but eventually revealed that such was not the case was really well done. I even like, again in hindsight, the way he moved Shallan and Kaladin through those almost stock scenes of setting up a potential relationship, but used them to subtly reveal their flaws rather than actually bringing them together. Was there a lot of "evidence" for Shallan and Kaladin as a relationship? Yes, but all of it was two-fold, in that as it openly seemed to be setting them up together, it was actually revealing why they would never end up together all along. Masterfully clever, if you ask me. Now, I haven't really gone into a depth of why I think Shallan and Adolin are good together, but I can hit the high points. Adolin is a great person, and he is especially a great match for Shallan. He is deeply empathetic and is supportive of her. We've seen with Renarin that Adolin doesn't need to fully understand what is happening to be supportive. He may not always know what's going on with Renarin or what Renarin's thinking, but he's still powerfully supportive and positive. I think we'll see this in his relationship with Shallan as well. Does Adolin know, totally, what's happening with Shallan's personas? Probably not. He might not ever fully understand, but as with his brother, he's supportive of her and is ready to help in whatever way he can. Sidenote that this theme of true understanding not being necessary for true love is one that Brandon has touched on before, but I think we'll see it in a greater depth. I'll avoid spoilers, but Vin falls into a similar crux of worrying that the person she loves doesn't understand her and therefore thinks that another person who does understand her better is a better match, yet in the end, that's not the case. I think this is a really mature view of relationships, because, deep down, no one will ever truly 100% understand anyone else, even if you're a perfect match. There will always be aspects of even the healthiest romantic couples in that they don't have a perfect understanding of one another, hence why relationships take work and need open communication to be successful, because this is a difficulty that all people must confront, the deep and incomprehensible uniqueness of all. I think Vin and Elend are going to be a good parallel for Shallan and Adolin. They might be endgame, but even after Vin and Elend entered a true committed relationship, they still had personal difficulties that they had to work through. It didn't mean that they were wrong for one another, but they still had those conflicts as plot points. I think the "love triangle" side of this relationship is done for. Kaladin accepts that he never really loved Shallan. Shallan chooses Adolin and marries him. Everyone is satisfied on that front and the entanglement of that subplot is resolved and concluded. That doesn't mean that Shallan's personal identity issues are solved (far from it) or that Shallan and Adolin won't have relationship conflicts that they'll need to work through as a married couple. Both of those things are almost certainly going to happen. But I don't think those relationship conflicts are going to come from Kaladin. That chapter of this narrative is finished and we're moving on to new things. I'm excited to see what those things are as we move into later books. TL;DR: Adolin's a good person whose killing of Sadeas was justified and therefore could not have sustained a deep crisis of moral character on its own, but may open the path to a further exploration of that side in the future with a different event. Shallan and Kaladin's relationship followed established plotlines for a potential romance, but was written to subvert the end game relationship, and successfully accomplished this goal, giving an interesting and well-crafted conclusion to their romantic storyline. Shallan and Adolin's relationship is endgame, but this doesn't mean that they are no longer going to face relationship conflict that they'll need to work through. It also does not mean that Shallan's own personal conflicts of identity are solved. And, with that, I look back upon myself and, with the folly of man, that I thought this was somehow going to be less than two thousand words. Ha, Feather, thou knowest not thyself. Our grand total for this post is, of course, 2,208. Great job, me. You played yourself.
  7. 16 points
    "Come in Odium, or is it Passion? Which do you prefer? Pull up a seat. Lopen, get him some stew please." Kaladin said. "Is good question. He is powerful god, but he is not god of our gods, he is bad god, so maybe devil? Is hard to know what we call this thing. Perhaps a name is for the best?" said Rock. "Rayse, call me Rayse" said the shard as Lopen plonked a bowl of stew down in front of him. "Thank you, Lopen is it?" "Your majesty" replied Lopen. "Oh come now, no need to be so formal, you don't have to call me your majesty." said Rayse. "Oh no, you got it all wrong gancho. You're supposed to call me you're majesty. I was a king." proclaimed Lopen. "Err..." began Rayse "You know I'm a god, right?" "Yeah, but there isn't a word for talking to gods. There's a word for talking to kings, so you gotta call me your majesty" said Lopen. Rayse crinckled his brow at that logic, but chose not to comment, instead lifting a spoonful of stew to his mouth, and immediately regretted it. Spices! a lot of spices! "By the... By me! That's hot!" "HAH!" exclaimed Rock "Airsick god devil thing! You not worry, you get used to it!" One of the other members of the bridge approached Rayse. Stiff backed, dark skinned and clean shaven. His uniform was neatly pressed and he seemed rather more formal than the other members of this group. "Excuse me sir" said Sigzil "I was wondering if we could perhaps go over some paperwork before we begin negotiations. One cannot understate the importance of establishing a firm initial position before negotiations." Wonderful. Azish. Rayse hated the Azish. "I suppose if it's really necessary." The next four hours passed as slowly as the entirety of his existence up until that point. Finally the tedium ended though. "Captain Kaladin, Can we discuss the surrender of the windrunners now?" A confused look passed over the windrunners face "Surrender of the windrunners? We invited you here to negotiate your surrender to us." Rayse was irritated now "Why would I ever surrender to you?" "Well," began Kaladin "We acknowledge that you are the flame of eternal hatred, but no flame can burn us, we eat Rock's stew every day! We acknowledge that you are passion, but no passionate emotion could ever be as baffling as a few minutes in conversation with the Lopen. Finally, we acknowledge that you are the void, but no void could ever be as tedious as Sigzil's storming lists. There really isn't anything left that you can do to us, that we haven't already done to ourselves." Something odd happened next. For the first time since his ascension, Rayse found himself weeping in despair.
  8. 15 points
    I'm okay with waiting forever for a love interest for Kaladin. I really hate the idea that people have to have a romantic interest in order to be happy. People don't make other people happy. They give them something else to care about, but happiness is more about having needs met and being self-actualised. Social interaction is important in that, but that social interaction needn't be romantic. I don't want to see all of the characters in the book paired up with people simply because of some contrived belief that they can only ever be happy if they find "the one" (which in real life usually turns out to be someone living two streets over and is only the one when they are doing something their partner likes). There isn't any other character on the scene at this time, except Syl, who would be a good match to Kaladin romantically, and if one is introduced solely to address that absence, that's going to be so sickeningly deus ex machina to me I think I would actually vomit. Basically, Kaladin has a lot of meaningful social relationships. He has Syl for companionship and emotional support. He has bridge 4 for camaraderie. He has Shallan and Dalinar and the other radiants for a circle of peers. Romance is a nice snack for him, but he's already eating breakfast, lunch and dinner, so he doesn't need it.
  9. 14 points
    strap yourselves in nerds, buckle up for some wild revelations: So we have the Shin, a bunch of pasty white, wide-eyed people who like to collect swords, and use Japanese-style honorifics.. yup they're all weaboos.... which leads me to my conclusion: Rayse, their native (to Ashyn) Shardy-boi, who seems to espouse being Passion, once got slighted by something inconsequential, and became the whiny-peebaby we all know and love/hate.... yus that's right Rayse is the god of the patriarchy
  10. 14 points

    From the album The Knight Radiant

    Detailed view of the faces
  11. 14 points
    I know that your post is basically a heartfelt opinion-piece, which is fine and good, @Ookla the Feathered. I have been more leaning on the analyzing side of this thread, but I want to say one thing regarding Shallan's and Kaladin's "incompatibility" real quick. It is funny really, how you see two characters as so incompatible, when they are actually written as having many compatibilities (scientific thought processes, actually being able to laugh about each others jokes, whether you like them or not, and being very passionate all around (though this is still quite hidden in Shallan's character - it shows at times). It is just a bit astonishing to me how one could come to the conclusion, that Kaladin and Shallan are incompatible, when they form a real bond in a situation, where, even though they were forced to work together, they didn't actually have to. If they were so incompatible, this wouldn't have happened. I don't want to personally attack you, but when I see you citing certain scenes from WoR, I don't see you pointing out incompatibilities, but rather you saying why you don't like them, which is fine, but not really something, that will convince me, I'm afraid. I get the argument, regarding Kaladin not really understanding Shallan's coping mechanisms though, which can be seen as one big incompatibility, but I just see it as one big misunderstanding. Plus, to be fair, Adolin doesn't understand anything about this either, since this is Shallan's justification for choosing Adolin. Basically, your point is that Adolin is good for Shallan, because he is supportive. I agree... to an extent. He is too much so. He is happy with what he has now and just lets it go with the flow. In short, by being like that he enables Shallan to keep being like this. I don't think, that this is healthy. In fact, he is encouraging Shallan, by being drinking buddies with Veil, as seen in the last Shallan scene before the wedding. Also, I'd argue, that Kaladin would be just as supportive, but not being enabling by challenging her on the situation - if only he knew. Saying he wouldn't be is a gross misrepresentation of the character we've seen so far. Then again, maybe we both have our own pair of rose-tinted glasses.
  12. 14 points
    There's a lot of yada-yada in that "basically". He's basically like Kaladin, except that every chance he had to make a horrible decision, he took it. He's basically like Kaladin except he kills in cold blood. He's basically like Kaladin except he goes against every Ideal of the Knights Radiant. All the 'excepts' are what make him nothing like Kaladin, anymore.
  13. 14 points
    I thought it was interesting because I don't interpret it as an F u, but as a sign of respect. Even though he's opposing Kal, Moash still respects his former leader and friend. Maybe even still considers himself a member of bridge four.
  14. 14 points
    So I've been focusing a lot lately on Shallan and Adolin, but I was doing some rereading and came across some text that I want to bring up concerning Kaladin and his decision making. At the end of the book, when Kaladin is reflecting on things while also looking down upon our soon to be newlyweds, we see him performing an action during his contemplation. The full scene: So, there is a lot going on in this very small scene. But the thing I want to focus on is the decision that Kaladin is making here, and how it is very much symbolically tied to another decision he has made via the stone. The last time in Oathbringer we saw him make a decision related to his romantic feelings towards someone, guess what was present? So in the scene with Tarah, Kaladin is confronted with making a choice that he is not capable of making, because of the weight he is carrying around, symbolized by the rock that reminds him of his brother. For him, at this point, it's not even a choice, because he is incapable of setting down the burden he has chosen. I think that I'm safe in saying that most of us would agree that Tarah's last physical words to him are a good clue as to the thing that Kaladin has to accept as part of his next oath and progression for him. He even seems to know what it is, later, and is unable to commit to it. I find it interesting that Brandon chose to tie these two scenes together with this symbolism. In the scene concerning Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin is relieved that Shallan has seemingly made her choice, because it relieves him of the burden of having to make one himself. He gets to keep carrying his rock. In both scenes, Kaladin is confronted with a challenge to prioritizing his feelings for the living (in the form of women he loves), or to dwell on his past failures and the dead left in their wake. Making the decision he did with Tarah was not right for his growth and acceptance of himself, and that scene is symbolically tied to him making the "decision" about Shallan and Adolin, which is also not right for his growth and personal acceptance. I find it interesting symmetry that both Shallan and Kaladin's progression (or their abrupt halting of it) is so very neatly tied up with romantic feelings. Shallan allows Adolin to decide who she should be, and what she should do. She thinks the choice is hers, while simultaneously forcing the opinions of the other facets of her personality to the back. She gets to stay right where she is, because facing those other facets of herself scare her, she doesn't want to move forward. Similarly Kaladin refuses to make a choice, and instead finds comfort in giving up that choice to someone else, because it allows him to stay where he is. He didn't feel resignation either. Instead he felt ... agreement? He feels agreement because this is also what he wants, to not make a decision, to not have to act on this, because he's afraid of stepping forward. Contrast what he says in that chapter with what he says earlier in the book: I don't believe for a second that Kaladin could have some of the most pronounced and detailed feelings that we've seen from his POV yet here, and then turn around and wave those away as simply "I felt ...something. A lightening of my burdens". During the scene on the roof when Shadolin are making their passion for each other known, Kaladin is still trying to work out his feelings for her, and he decides, yet again, that they are less than what they are. Not only because she is already "taken". Not only because of his respect for her betrothed. But because it allows him to continue to hide, to remain static, to do what he has always done. Shallan and Kaladin are both making choices, or not making choices, that leave them in a static state, unable to progress further on their own respective paths of Radiancy. And these choices are both wrapped up in denying the feelings they have for each other. If that isn't an indication that they are not done, then I don't know what is. You know, sometimes I wonder just how people who were happy with the romantic ending at the end of OB could NOT see this stuff. Then I think, perhaps, Brandon is happy with this state of affairs, as it means he is doing something right, hiding it so well, that a large chunk of the readership are going to be primed and ready for his next big surprise for them. ...then again, it could also be I who is the dupe...
  15. 13 points
    I had an idea in Discord tonight, upon discussing the Recreance. We ended up talking about spren and Shadesmar, of course, and it got me thinking about deadeye spren. Remember in Way of Kings, in the first vision of the Recreance? There's a huge amount of missing Shardblades. That's not even close to all the Windrunners (this wasn't the main front of the war), and that's just one of the orders. Granted, Skybreakers didn't betray their oaths, and there was only one Bondsmith in that generation, but there's still seven other orders full of Radiants who would have broke their oaths. This is to say that there is a metric truckload of missing Blades and this has never come up in the text again. But we do get more information on Shardblades in Oathbringer. They are deadeyes in Shadesmar and they are common enough in Shadesmar that they have a common term for them. Now, some background. It seems that deadeye spren are actually separate from their Blades in Shadesmar: This suggests that deadeyes are always in Shadesmar, regardless of the state of the Blade (summoned or unsummoned) in the Physical Realm. But if deadeye spren are separate entities, isn't that a bit strange? Adolin cannot summon Maya in Shadesmar. So these two entities are linked intrinsically. That's obvious, because in the Physical Realm, the Blade is the spren after all, but is a curious split between the dead spren in Shadesmar and the "corpse" in the Physical. (It seems highly unlikely that the deadeye would vanish when the user of the Blade summoned it to the Physical Realm. I certainly don't get that impression from Ico. Additionally, it isn't like when Syl is dismissed she goes back to Shadesmar.) Anyway. Here's my idea: what if somehow some spren, or other entities took Shardblades--which were unbonded, of course--through a Perpendicularity into Shadesmar, in an effort to revive some deadeyes? I don't know what would happen if you actually take a Shardblade into Shadesmar. There's a lot of possibilities. I don't think the Blades could manifest as Blades in Shadesmar, so maybe they'd just... go back "into" their deadeye spren? That's my idea. A lot of deadeyes in Shadesmar already "have" their Shardblades inside them. It didn't fix them, but it did prevent them from being found in the Physical Realm. Not all deadeyes would be like this--the ones we've seen, from Ico, tend to wander to the person "holding" their corpse--but for the Blades that are unbonded? They wouldn't wander around at all. I realize this is a pretty crackpot theory, but I think if you asked, "where are the missing Shardblades?" the answer being "in Shadesmar, as some of the deadeyes" seems reasonable. Previous hypotheses were things like, "Maybe there's a giant cache of them somewhere!" or "Maybe the Skybreakers collected them!" But they'd probably be found in two millennia since the Recreance if it was a cache, and I think the Skybreakers having a cache of somewhere like a thousand Shardblades seems crazy. Wouldn't there have been a situation where you'd use one of your thousand extra Blades? But you know where absolutely no Rosharan would have found the Blades since the Recreance? In Shadesmar. They'd probably be pretty difficult to separate from the deadeye who metabolized that Physical part of them... That's my midnight theory for you all. It's probably wrong, but at least you all remembered that there's a crapload of missing Blades around. I'd like to hear your ideas for where they might be.
  16. 13 points
    Did anyone else think it was weird how when Szeth pops up during the battle for Thaylen City, everyone is just sort of okay with him being there? What Lift thinks: What Dalinar thinks: What Jasnah thinks: This last quote by Jasnah almost seems to be bordering on humorous, as if she's saying, "Hahaha, the Assassin in White, what a joke, I never thought I'd see him on our side! Sure, he brutally murdered my father, and half the rulers of Roshar, and then was killed himself by Kaladin so he's basically a zombie as far as we know, but we'll take all the help we can get!" This was just really weird to me, and seemed like a major oversight. You would think that at least Jasnah would be threatened by Szeth - she seemed to have a really close relationship with Gavilar, why is she so nonchalant about meeting his murderer? And why are they all okay with Szeth becoming Dalinar's bodyguard and joining the Knights Radiant - do none of them think for a moment that he might be trying to stab Dalinar in the back while no one is looking? Nobody has questions for him, nobody attacks him, nobody screams because he's apparently come back from the dead. I feel like the comeback of Szeth is supposed to be really cinematic and cool - he sweeps onto the battlefield, clothed in white, wielding a black sword, redeeming himself... and everyone is so awestruck that they conveniently forget the fact that he is the most feared, notorious and dangerous criminals in the world, and HE WAS KILLED by Kaladin as far as they know, so why is he even alive? I get that they're in a tight place and they're not going to interfere if Szeth is helping their cause, but everyone seems so unfazed by his appearance - they're mildly surprised, and a bit confused, but then they get over it almost immediately and he's just one of the gang as far as they're concerned. Did anyone else feel like the return of Szeth was really rushed, and that it was weird how easily everyone just accepted him as a good guy?
  17. 13 points
    I hate him for making the salute in that moment. It was sticking a metaphorical spear through Kaladin, after putting the real one through Elhokar. Strangely, I have an easier time justifying his murder of Elhokar than the world’s most hurtful F you that he gave to Kaladin. I now have Kaladin as a huge favorite to be murdering Moash eventually. Honor speed
  18. 13 points
    I have a Zahel scene, because Zahel Dalinar and Szeth walk briskly through the sparring grounds. " So most of the Skybreakers have opted to swear themselves to the Singers?" Dalinar questioned, almost hesitantly. " Yes Dalinar," Szeth says glancing down at his strange shardblade, " No Sword-Nimi, they are not evil. They are following Oaths." Dalinar shook his head clearing it from his mind. He scanned the room, hoping he might see Kadash. Instead he saw Zahel, casually leaning against a wood pole. He was wearing his usual odd clothes, and a scruffy beard. Not quite stubble or full grown facial hair, just somewhere in between. He looked at Dalinar, nodding his head in acknowledgement. Dalinar kept walking, but stopped as he heard a sputtered remark. " What the!?" Zahel had nearly fallen down, with a bewildered look on his face. "Colors! And with him!?" He exclaimed. " Zahel, are you ok?" Dalinar asked, concerened. Suddenly he heard a voice like a roar in his head, "VASHER!!!!" Dalinar stumbled back, but Szeth and Zahel looked relatively unfazed. " Sword-Nimi? Do you know this person?" Szeth questioned the sword, confused. Zahel had regained his composure, but had a worried expression. All at once, Dalinar realized a small circle of light around Zahel. All of the colors around him seemed just a touch brighter than they should be. Then, the voice echoed in his head again. " It's Vasher!! Where have you been! Why'd you leave me? I've been destroying lots of evil!" The thing, whatever it was seemed very eager. It was also calling Zahel, Vasher... " Szeth, didn't Kaladin and Adolin say something about Zahel? The girl they met? Azure, the highmarshal, mentioned him," Dalinar recalled, remembering something about Azure finding Zahel? " Colors! Storming woman!" Zahel said pacing back and forth, hand on his forehead. " I may need to talk to you Dalinar. You and your Radiants. Alone." He began to walk furiously towards the door, but stopped, looking back he said gesturing at Szeth's shardblade, " And don't bring the sword."
  19. 13 points
    I don't know if this has been posted before, but this is the first theory I've ever thought of without hearing someone's else's input that I'm actually confident in, and it relates to Rayse/Odium's dynamic and being. The following quote from the end of Oathbringer has been getting a lot of attention. I've seen a lot of ideas from different people about why Odium says "we", from 1.) He confused Dalinar for Adonalsium and was referencing the 16 original Vessels to 2.) thinking he is Honor and implying that another Shard helped Odium kill Honor be it Autonomy or even Ambition to 3.) he's simply referencing "we" as in the Unmade or his other followers, kinda a hive/group mentality. Regardless, Sanderson has RAFO'd all questions about it. But I don't think it's any of these things, I think Rayse alone has mastered how to split the power he holds (of Odium or Passion) from that of his own personality (Rayse the human). We see in every other circumstance, be it Ruin or Preservation or Cultivation, that the Vessels have been shaped by the Intent of their power, warping their personality. I think one of the things that has allowed Odium to become so dangerous even compared to other Shards is he figured out how to keep his own personality and desires separate from that of his Intent. In the WoR letter from Frost to Hoid, we see this quote referencing Odium: From this, we see that Hoid himself thinks that Rayse remains an individual with the same goals that Rayse set out with in the beginning. Personally, I trust Hoid's opinion on matters in the Cosmere more than any other character. This allows Rayse to remain level headed, even charismatic, during his interactions with Dalinar and others when he desires during OB. He is able to differentiate his personality and mind from that of the Odium, which would by itself hate everything and want to just destroy destroy destroy, similar to Ruin, or at the least live passionately and live in extremes. Rayse is able to harness that power when he needs to, and I'm sure it has affected him to some extent, but he is able to control that aspect and keep it separate. This is why, in his moment of shock and denial, Rayse and Odium both yell in outrage "WE", because the desire to kill Honor reigns forefront in both of their minds. I think this could have huge implications, including Odium's ability to wield the powers of his Shard with less personal risk or restriction, as well as perhaps how he is able to create a Champion later on. There's a lot we don't know, but as of now I'm pretty confident in this theory. That being said, rip it to shreds in the comments below or tell me what you think (as well as if this has already been discussed somewhere and I simply missed it).
  20. 13 points
    I personally think Shallan doesn't understand Kaladin's mental issues, and Kaladin doesn't understand Shallan's mental issues. I'm someone with depression, and I've been in a relationship where neither people really can help each other and can't understand each other's mental issues. It's massively destructive for a relationship and both member's mental states. I think Kaladin and Shallan could connect for a time but they don't have the groundwork for a longterm relationship. Them working together is not the same as them being in a deep committed relationship. Kaladin isn't ready for something like that. I dunno. I can only speak my own experience with depression, but I know depression is quite damaging on a relationship. Adolin, on the other hand, actually has the emotional capacity to support Shallan this way. I don't agree with the notion that it's "enabling". I think Adolin will immediately want to work to try and bring Shallan's personas back into herself. That feels like the logical progression. But first Adolin needs to get Shallan to open up about such things.
  21. 13 points
    Further to this, there's a theory going around (which I think is basically correct) that this was the reason for the Recreance. The False Desolation and the Recreance seem to have happened in a very short time horizon of each other and imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram was what ended the False Desolation. The Radiants, who now know that surgebinding destroyed Ashyn and that Honour is dying, manage to completely lobotomise almost the entire Singer population of Roshar and so confirm that surgebinding is, in fact, something terrible and to be avoided. From there it doesn't seem implausible that they would abandon their oaths especially as they now believe that having imprisoned Ba-Ado-Mishram that forms of power are gone and there isn't really a reason for them anymore.
  22. 12 points
    Preface: Someone correct me if I'm breaking any rules here, as I just made my account a couple hours ago. I posted this theory on a King T discussion thread, but I'm thinking that it was a little off topic since that discussion was about T as a character and this is a theory about the Diagram. So pardon my ignorance if this is a breach of etiquette! Theory: The Diagram is Fake I think the Diagram itself is part of the subterfuge. As others have pointed out, the original concept of "make a deal to protect my kingdom, then become king of everything" is so simple, that I believe Odium was meant to see through it. In order for the bluff to work though, you have to make it look like you're trying, hence the takeover of JKeved. If T was so brilliant when he made the Diagram, then it stands to reason that he was smart enough to realize that Odium would be able to read/interpret it. That is the entire point. It is a classic misdirection, just on a grand scale. It's all meant to bait Odium into certain actions, presumably to put Him in a position to be vulnerable. It also stands to reason that genius T knew that Odium would never negotiate on one of T's smart days. So why put in the "negotiate from a position of strength" line? It's part of the misdirection. If Odium is confident that T and the Diagram are not a threat, then He is much more likely to let his guard down. T is playing the Severus Snape role. We are going to hate him for a long time and he is going to do some awful things. In the end though, it will be his actions that ultimately make Odium vulnerable to be defeated by someone else. Basically, I just don't accept the narrative of "Odium saw through the Diagram, therefore it is moot and T is now a traitor." Genius T knew that would happen and planned for it
  23. 12 points
    Kaladin could not move. An army of Voidbringers was on their storming doorstep, half of his squires had the grace of a drunken skyeel, and the Assassin in White was waltzing around with a Shardblade that vaporized life. And yet, Kaladin could not move. Lopen had long ago passed out, refusing to surrender until his body quite literally convulsed, stomach spewing three hours worth of contents onto the floor, walls and ceiling. But Rock and that Reshi girl... They just-kept-eating. "Sure," Kaladin whispered to himself, "Bridge 4 needs to let loose, have some fun. So what a storming thin-as-a-branch kid challenges Rock to an eating contest. Let 'em laugh, blow off some steam, then back to work." Eighteen hours later and neither Rock nor Lift showed any signs of slowing. "It's not actually possible Syl," Kaladin said as Rock roared a mighty guffaw, shoving a fist sized cremling-shell and all-into his mouth. "With everything you've seen," Syl responded, finally breaking her gaze from the two combatants. "You really should have learned to not use that word." She of course found the eating contest utterly fascinating. Lift paused for a moment as the cremling shell cracked and shattered in Rock's mouth, then thrust her tiny arms at a steaming bowl of stew five times the size of her head. Stormlight somehow streaming from her, the girl slurped down the entire bowl's contents without pause, Stormlight healing her tongue and throat from the burns. "This is insane," Kaladin said. "I'm putting a stop to it." The glare Syl gave him would have made Odium pause. "Do you want a mutiny? Cause that's how you get a mutiny." Kaladin threw up his hands and collapsed into a chair. He glanced over to a tall, stout dark skinned man who had watched the battle unfold with as rapt attention as Syl. "Bet the Heralds never had to deal with this," Kaladin said. "No," the man said with a smile, "We most certainly did not."
  24. 12 points
    I did (3 times in fact) . That is why I got annoyed. I have tried to explain myself by quoting you then explaining my position and why you have misunderstood. Then you go and misrepresent my position again. There is simply no point in me continuing to argue my point when you aren't engaging with me. 1) Most posts simply acknowledge that there is the possibility for Adolin to go bad because he committed murder. That's one interpretation, yours is another. 2) Most posts are not saying that Adolin is inherently selfish- they acknowledge that we don't get much insight into Adolin's PoV so we don't know how much selfishness is there in his actions. That adds a shade of grey into the interpretation of Adolin - it is as reasonable as saying we don't need to see his PoVs because his actions display his selflessness. It is an opinion. Yours is another. I would add that the WoB on Adolin being "what you see is what you get" supports your position in this. 3) There is strong acknowledgement that Adolin's action by killing Sadeas is immoral. Not everyone agrees, but there are some here that see the murder as an immoral act. That doesn't make all of Adolin's character or actions immoral. It simply means that he may be capable of immoral acts in the future. If you think the murder was moral then you will disagree with that. It is still an opinion. The WoB of "what you see is what you get" I feel supports the idea that the murder is immoral from Adolin's perspective because he hides it. Essentially it feels like you have reacted very negatively to valid opinions regarding Adolin's character and then stated that most of the thread holds more extreme views of Adolin than is actually the case. I get that you like Adolin and relate to him, but these criticisms are not of the Adolin as you see him. They are criticisms of the Adolin seen by others. Different perspective results in a different view of the character which results in different opinions. I don't much care for the Adolin I see. That is likely a very different character to the one you see because otherwise we would likely have more aligned opinions of him. The problem here is that (a) if you quote someone then directly imply they said something they didn't it will annoy them and anyone else who actually reads their posts and (b) only 2 people regularly used the word sociopathic (myself and aemetha) and thus it was clear who you were referring to. Even though neither of us actually said what you implied and we both clarified our positions multiple times. Hence we both got annoyed for being misrepresented. On top of that, if you feel strongly that something is wrong with a post then you should quote it directly and not lump multiple nuanced opinions together because it actually undermines your own argument - it makes you look like you aren't engaging so people will switch off. Overall, I don't object to you arguing Adolin's position. It is refreshing. I just object to arguments here being reduced to black and white oversimplifications when the thread is heavily nuanced and there is a broad range of opinions. By reducing the arguments in such a way you cause the thread to become very circular as people feel the need to explain their positions multiple times and it gets dull. Fine - but bear in mind that it wasn't your opinions that were the problem here - it was the fact you weren't actually engaging in the conversation, you were simply repeating your position and misrepresenting others. If you feel I am being unfair, I will happily discuss it further in PM. Yes I agree Calyx. I am on the SS Shalladin but if I'd been given enough material to jump ship, I would have done so (albeit somewhat reluctantly because foreshadowing) - but, as you say the relationships don't seem to develop much during OB. Indeed, besides the marriage, I would even argue that the relationships between A/S/K are not much more progressed than they were at the end of WoR - we get a bit of additional material for Kaladin/Adolin getting closer as friends but not much. Shallan may or may not still like Kaladin more than is appropriate, Adolin and Shallan share some important information - but it is all "new" from the end of WoR, and Kaladin is still accepting of Shadolin (note he says in WoR that "they fit"). Additionally, I would suggest that the major conflict points in the relationships haven't really been changed. Kaladin and Adolin had already resolved their differences by end of WoR and Shallan is never really a point of conflict between them, and Adolin seems to cope with Kaladin taking Adolin's position as Dalinar's right hand man. Helaran's death still lies as a point of conflict between Shallan and Kaladin, Adolin doesn't know Shallan's history and we don't know if "Veil" will actually tell him anything. Yes this is important - while trueShallan is still fractured, her alts can behave independently. It is a potential problem for her as it sets up intrasystem conflict. A "single" (ie a person with a single core identinty - like most of us) displays this kind of conflict as cognitive dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance which we can resolve in a number of ways. Shallan however, splits her ideas, thoughts, and behaviours amongst her alts and so she can cause conflict between them. That can cause all kinds of issues. It doesn't have to, but it is one of the factors likely to contribute the the spontaneous reintegration of her personalities which, if she isn't ready for it, she may really struggle with. I think I must have missed something here - can you elaborate your idea please? It sounds interesting. I know exactly what you mean! I did feel a bit better about it after listening to the audio, but I think Shallan needs to stand up (*ahem @Dreamstorm) and deal with this herself. Agreed. I am less keen on how he phrased it ("he can have you" or something iirc) but it was probably one of Adolin's best moments in terms of his character. I also think it is interesting that Kaladin and Adolin both essentially feel the same "acceptance" for Shallan's choice. They are not so different. Yes indeed - I feel very bad for Adolin here. He is doing his best for himself and her (not that she is better with Kaladin, but she is in no shape to be a decent partner atm) and she goes and stops him. I don't blame him for giving in - he wants to be in a relationship - that's why there is so little time between his partners. I don't really blame Shallan either - she is like a ship at sea in a highstorm herself - any safe harbour will do. Adolin should be more than that to her, but I am not sure that he is (yet). I personally see us having run aground on a coral reef - nowhere near land - as we have no supplies left, I'd even be happy to see "land of Shadolin" which is rumoured to have really weird hair before getting back on board the SS Shalladin and sailing off the edge of the world! Perhaps my nautical metaphors are getting out of hand? I think I need to read this author. Indeed - self-awareness is necessary for all KR, but crucial for a LW. "Very Bad" almost doesn't cover it - she is ripping herself and her bond to Pattern apart by refusing to acknowledge her true self. I don't think we'll open SA4 to a completely broken Shallan but I do think she'll probably have another crisis in SA4. If not, then SA5. She can't go on like this in my opinion. If she was living in a less stressful environment (eg not during a desolation) then she might manage to stay as a multiple, but given the circumstances I seriously doubt it. I personally think that Shallan will realise the truth for another reason and this will eventually lead her to Kaladin. She is (imo) using a man to help her lie. She needs to find the truth on her own because no-one can make her reintergrate - she has to do it, and want to do it herself. I agree - infatuation may be a stage towards passionate love, but it doesn't have to be. I feel "love" is a stretch for both Kaladin and Adolin. Different parts of Shallan have similar levels of feelings for both men - BS describes it as love, but I personally would say it was more infatuation for both of them. Her marriage to Adolin increases the chance of attachment forming to him over Kaladin, and that is the best marker of stability in a long term relationship. But then , attachment needs to start forming before the infatuation ends or it will just burn out. Exactly, that's why it amused me that Bradon expressed himself in a way that suggested he sees even more to Shalladin than we do (and to Shadolin as well, but let's ignore that). I suspect it was for simplicity more than anything! He is showing the equality of the feelings, the actual level is less important. She is choosing to "love the one she is with" to all intents and purposes. Ha I love it - but I am unwilling to run with it (sorry). The WoB says they are equal in terms of level - and she has more scope for growing attachment to Adolin. As long as I see decent grounds for that attachment (no more "without you I fade" nonsense) I can live with it. Hmm, am I arguing for Shadolin now? My feelings are that she had more to gain from making Adolin like her and more to lose by him not liming her so she had to put her best foot forward with him - thus it took her longer to realise she can tell him things. Kaladin's opinion mattered less in a way, so she was freer to talk to him so they bonded more quickly. This is where it really matters whether she can be honest with Adolin going forward. If she can't, it will massively impair their ability to attach to one another. Adolin thinks that the "Shallan" persona is the "real one". How is he going to feel that a good chunk of trueShallan is a thief, a con-artist, a murderer, betraying Jasnah and Dalinar (Ghostbloods) and sacrilegious? Those are all parts of her she's pushed onto Veil - her feelings regarding Kaladin are almost an aside - part of Shallan revels in the con, in the thrill of risk taking behaviour. That isn't the Shallan he knows - he will feel like the rug has really been pulled from under him when he realises. Can he even love that woman? Maybe - but it would be unfair to expect it. Even if true Shallan does end up attached to Adolin, what if he doesn't feel the same way? Indeed. Veil is so good at doing what she is told after all.
  25. 12 points
    You have probably all realised this long ago, but the Part Titles for all the 3 Stormlight books form Keteks (as well as giving the theme to the parts themselves). Sanderson is just so cool. So many little details, so easy to miss. I just can’t fathom how he does it! The Keteks: The Way of Kings Part 1: Above Silence Part 2: The Illuminating Storms Part 3: Dying Part 4: Storm’s Illumination Part 5 The Silence Above >> Above Silence, The Illuminating Storms –Dying– Storm’s Illumination, The Silence Above Words of Radiance Part 1: Alight Part 2: Wind’s Approach Part 3: Deadly Part 4: The Approach Part 5: Winds Alight >> Alight, Wind’s Approach –Deadly– The Approach, Winds Alight Oathbringer Part 1: United Part 2: New Beginnings Sing Part 3: Defying Truth, Love Truth Part 4: Defy! Sing Beginnings! Part 5: New Unity >> United, New Beginnings Sing –Defying Truth, Love Truth– Defy! Sing Beginnings! New Unity
  26. 12 points

    From the album Gaz Appreciation Station

    So here’s a drawing of Shallan’s main (named) bodyguards, part of homegirl’s ever-expanding, accidental army of just the worst of the worst of Roshar, all of which would storming die for her. There’s little to no description given for Red and Vathah. Maybe they’re described in Oathbringer and i’m going to feel really silly. But i got to have fun with the designs. (Why do i always draw Gaz with his eye closed??)
  27. 12 points
    Hi guys, I'm new here, just finished reading Book 3 (was peeking around a bit after Book 2, but didn't join). I'm actually surprised at the variety of "shipping" around here - I was never much into imagining relationship between barely known characters, or relationships based on one or two lines and details (and I can't say I really care about all the logical, real-life tidbits if they take away from the richness of a story). I enjoy feeling that I'm under both characters' skins (the reason why I don't care much about Tarah, she was just dropped there out of the blue), I enjoy the slow, detailed and complex buildup of connection and understanding that turns into passion, and I like the writer to take me there - my emotions seem stronger when triggered by somebody else's words than my own imagination. That's why this book was so disappointing for me (in this context, at least) after Book 2 seemed to go decidedly in that direction. I mean, Adolin "knows" Shallan and accepts her as who she is? She never even told him about killing her parents, she always played a nice little Vorin girl with him. That was pretty much the whole point of their communication in Book 2. Then after she spends a night in a city in utter despair (after Grund's death) she comes to Adolin and he ... starts talking about fashion?... And then somehow, suddenly, he makes her whole and she "always loved him". Cheap, bland and lame, especially in the hands of otherwise such a skilled writer. I have a strong impression that Brandon Sanderson changed his mind about the ending of the series - or maybe the ending for Kaladin? - somewhere between the two books or even in the middle of Oathbringer, and that's why he devised such a sharp, poorly explained U-turn in the romance plot. Otherwise, I really see no point for him to dedicate so much time and energy into building such a deep, smouldering sense of connection between Kaladin and Shallan in book 2, in the first place, and then suddenly drop it for no reason. At first I thought Kaladin is supposed to become the new Honor, like something similar with you-probably-know-who in Mistborn. But it seems that Dalinar might be going in that direction. Now I'm not sure, but it doesn't bode well for Kaladin. Especially considering the story about the man racing the storm that he and Wit told in Book 2, in which the racer dies, but "his spirit moves on", and Wit says, basically, it's Kaladin's story. Storms. I hate when main characters die, it makes the whole book feel rather empty and pointless. I guess I'm a bit old-fashioned that way, but feelings don't choose fashion. I can't imagine there will be any divorce/cheating/anything to change the current state of affairs, with Radiants, especially Honor-bound, being so heavy on oaths and all. And now that I've been thoroughly denied a nice, slow, elaborate and intense romance, I guess I have to go back to Bujold's The Sharing Knife to give me what I crave. It's quite uncommon that I find somebody who can evoke truly deep and not cheap-sounding emotions, and she does it really well.
  28. 11 points
    Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done! https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing I'll leave it in "everybody can edit" mode for now in case I overlooked something important or you have a quote to add! I'll probably later change it to "anybody can comment" so that we don't get attacked by any trolls. It needs some polishing, but like I said, it's not an essay, but a note. Also, I kind of concentrated on the topics that I felt were more in line with the main topic, overlooking mostly the discussion f.ex. on Shallan becoming a mother or deep analysis of Adolin's character. If you disagree with this approach, please feel free to add or rephrase anything. I think that @DimChatz summary would work well as the introduction, for example, but I won't go as far with copying other people's posts, unless you want to include it Anyway, this is wholly a group work, I only summarize because I'm a notes freak.
  29. 11 points
    I came across an interesting quote in my OB reread, and I don’t believe I’ve seen it posted here. The quote is from Chapter 62, when Shallan tells Vathah and Ishnah about Veil. It is related to the question of whether the “Shallan” we see in the books is just another persona, or if she is the true identity with Veil and Radiant being the false personas. It seems that Shallan answers that question here: So how does this reconcile with the common notion that the “Shallan" that Adolin identifies at the end of the book is the “real” Shallan? I don’t see that end-of-book Shallan is any different from the Shallan in this scene in Kholinar. I personally don’t think we’ve seen the real full Shallan in the books yet, though I think we came close during the Re-Shephir encounter. It is my interpretation (like many others in this thread) that all of her fragmented personas, including Shallan, Veil, and Radiant, make up the larger True Shallan, which is a single individual in the Spiritual Realm, but fragmented in the Physical Realm. Taking this quote into account, I’d be curious to hear from someone who believes that the “Shallan” at the end of the book, as identified by Adolin, is her true self, and why you think that. This might be the key piece I’m missing to understand where Shallan is at the end of the book. ( I am determined to figure this thing out one way or another. )
  30. 11 points
    This is a great section. I have stated multiple times, that the whole causal with Adolin and Shallan felt extremely... like necessity to me. On both sides. At first Shallan needed to be married into the Kholin family to save her family, which is why she did everything to play the good Vorin girl... Well, that fizzled out when the world started to end Now she needs him to anchor her "Shallan" personality as primary, and Adolin needs her to, well, feel good about finally having a lasting relationship. Props to him for being willing to step back. Kaladin and Shallan felt more... natural in its development. Not necessary at all, it just happened. I think, that this is a more realistic depiction of how falling in love works, but then again, "falling in love" is hard to define. Anyway. What is important is, that I do think, that Adolin is attached to Shallan, but not trueShallan, which makes the revelation, that Shallan is much, much more than that even worse. There is a reason many long-lasting couples break up with the sentence "You're not the man/woman I fell in love with anymore." The longer Shallan waits, the harder it will be for Adolin to accept... Problem is, that Shallan herself sees herself as independent from Veil and Radiant, so she'll probably won't even be that inclined to tell him about those things you've listed. As she's already pushing this off to Veil with her Ghostblood involvement.
  31. 11 points
    Kaladin, Shallan, and Adolin, The sources of all the Shard's trollin', The triangle's gone, But the ships battle on, Denying her last name is Kholin.
  32. 11 points
    I don't have much time today - nor indeed the inclination to get into things deeply here. This is mainly because I am fed up of having to explain multiple times now that I have never said that Adolin is a "bad guy" but that his murder was a "bad thing". And yes, this is aimed mostly at you @maxal I am giving up on trying to explain myself to you because you are either deliberately misunderstanding my position or I am unable to explain myself sufficiently well to make you understand it. I have tried, and failed, so rather than devote yet more time to a debate that can't go anywhere I am moving on. To anyone else who is unclear on my position regarding Adolin I'll summarise: Adolin is alright most of the time. His moral code is not better or worse than most of the people of he interacts with. I think he believes he acted wrongly because he hid his murder of Sadeas. If he honestly thought it was the right thing to do, he'd have admitted it sooner imo. The murder of Sadeas is a "bad thing". It shows that Adolin can be impulsive and reckless (which is borne up elsewhere in text) and doesn't always consider the consequences of his actions. I think he acted in hate and rage. These are negative emotions, regardless of how well justified they might be. Adolin, like any other normal person, has the capacity for both good and evil. He might go dark, though I don't think he has to for the story to work. I am not invested in whether he goes dark or not, as long as it is believable either way. I believe his attitude towards Shallan's alts are unhelpful. He is not to blame for not knowing better, but that doesn't make them any less unhelpful. I think this will feature in SA4. Adolin's arc is not finished - he is too close to too many MCs and thus will have some development of his own regardless of whether he ends up "dark" or not. I think the Maya arc will be part of this. I don't think Adolin is "true" edgedancer material - he may have enough in him to reawaken Maya and this will be interesting, but I am less sure that he will end up being full Radiant. For one thing, my own interpretation of the EDs (nb Loving/healing) is that they would not be terribly keen on killing - and would likely avoid it even in self-defence. On a side note, I am of the firm opinion that murder is an antisocial behavior (aka sociopathic.....) and this is why it is generally considered immoral and illegal. The act of killing someone else, in my opinion, can only be justified in exceptional circumstances. I don't personally find Adolin's justification sufficient. I have also said that Jasnah's actions in Kharbranth are equally immoral. Dalinar's actions at (and before) Rathalas are appalling and also have no sufficient justification. To be clear, Jasnah is my favourite side character - she and I have a great deal in common, but that doesn't excuse her actions. I also dislike that Kaladin is so good at killing. His kills are legally justified, but I agree fully with his father that you cannot kill to protect except in very extreme situations. Indeed I think Kaladin is finally coming round to this idea himself. OK, some other thoughts on other ideas touched upon: The "triangle" is done, because triangles are about choice and the struggle with that choice. This is not the same as romantic arcs being over. Shallan has made her choice - one might say she has made her bed and now she has to lie in it (get it? lie /= truth and lie down... no? just me then lol) Kaladin is likely to avoid raising conflict between Shallan and Adolin - eg by his actual physical absence. If they have conflict, he will not be the cause of it. This doesn't mean romantic arcs are over. Shallan and Adolin really need to actually get to know each other without the lies/fabrications etc. I suspect that SA4 will have either a conflict in the marriage a la the "traditional" romantic arc where the conflict causes a separation at least emotionally that ends in reconciliation or the conflict results in a situation that directly or indirectly leads to Adolin's death (possibly in SA5). NB Kaladin is not involved in this. Shalladin's foreshadowing is not a bait and switch. It was too deeply done on top of the "obvious" romantic arc that was alluded to in WoR. That to me suggests that the bait and switch is the marriage between Adolin and Shallan. It has no depth to it beyond standard teenage dating, which would be fine if they were dating, but for a marriage, it is as likely to cause angst as happiness. I doubt Tarah is relevant to the conversation going forward except that she shows partly what Kaladin is looking for in a partner. He understands, at least in part, what his mistakes there were. I don't think he is still holding a torch for her - she is simply the person who best shows his romantic inclinations. It is normal to reflect on past relationships, especially when considering a new partner. The relationship is designed to show how much damage he was doing to his own self-interest because of his inability to put the burdens of his failures down - and they are literally and metaphorically weighing him down. I agree with @GameOfGroans (welcome aboard the SS Shalladin which I refuse to acknowledge is sinking - we are just lost at sea) in that there is a personal bias because of personal preferences and memories (as a point, I loved you post, and I am so sorry about your partners Alzheimer's - it is a terrible thing to lose a person, but even worse when you can't really mourn their loss because they are still partly there. I hope you have plenty of additional support around you) . I personally value intelligence more than kindness or openness in a partner. I am a "serial monogamist" I suppose, and my most successful relationships have been based on a meeting of minds (including the one I have with my SO now) so I personally would value Kaladin more highly than Adolin. Neither Kaladin nor Shallan are in a good place for a serious committed relationship. They don't know themselves well enough yet to know what will suit them. This is normal for people of their age. On top of that they need to heal. Kaladin's issues are less deepseated than Shallan's (his major issue is SAD, and his depression is related to his position as a slave etc - he is letting go of those feelings, so it is not something that will dog him for all his days. His SAD is likely to continue, but it is only a few weeks long each year and so he just needs to learn to manage it. So this whole "broken people are bad for each other" thing that people are going on about is only true as long as Kaladin has mood problems. On top of that as I firmly believe that Adolin is likely to cause Shallan more harm than good by treating her alts differently, it isn't like her being with a "whole" person is going to make it a healthy relationship. Indeed, such a situation could make her entirely dependent on him. If anyone wants to counter my points I would greatly appreciate you using quotes from the books or WoBs or analogies from other books. I am getting a little tired of arguing my points with quotes (which I use a lot if you check my posts) and just being dismissed with "I feel you are wrong" without any equal level of justification for that idea. I am happy to be proven wrong, but no-one's feelings are "proof". I get people don't always have time, and that is understandable, but at the same time, it is very upsetting to be dismissed by others simply because they disagree. Alright. I'll be back tomorrow I expect with a more "phin-type" post. To anyone who has joined us here - welcome It is always good to have new faces here to add to the debate! Sorry if I've come off a bit annoyed today - I can be nice, I promise
  33. 11 points
    Exactly. That's why I feel that this whole story line is a hasty patch for Sanderson's last-minute change of mind about the ending. It's just so inconsistent, in intellectual, emotional and just plain common sense. Quite a few segments of OB were written like they were a setup for Kaladin and Shallan to deepen their mutual understanding, only to be somehow diluted, left dangling, or patched with something that seemed... forced, vague, not genuine, like an afterthought - total opposite of Book 2. If Sanderson planned from the start to have their bond slowly dissolve, he made an incredibly poor, amateurish job out of it (besides, why then build it in the first place?). So I can only conclude he didn't plan it from the start. I had a thought that Shallan is not quite herself because that Unbound entity from Kholinar Oathbringer gate got into her, but I don't think Sanderson would make such somersaults with relationships, he likes them to be stable and tidy. Besides, in that case I don't think he'd make such a point about Kaladin deciding he was never really in love with her after all. I just don't think Sanderson is the kind of author who enjoys sudden twists and turns for their own sake, not to mention the importance that vows have in this story. I mean, I enjoy intellectual challenge and depth, but I also read with my heart, not just my mind, and I believe Sanderson also writes from his heart, not only his mind. And the heart needs some internal consistency at least. I just don't think he would make such a mess just to please those who want sharp twists without previous emotional buildup. I don't want to grasp to straws just to be disappointed again. Speaking of disappointment, I'll make a very personal comment here, so if you don't care about personal, best to skip the rest of the post. In fact, I'll just hide it all as a spoiler, so read on if you are interested. Thanks to the folks above who welcomed me in their posts - I tried to multiquote them here, but something went wrong, or I didn't yet quite figure out the system.
  34. 11 points
  35. 11 points
    There's nothing wrong with discussing a ship, and any comparison to bestiality or incest when Kaladin and Syl are both thinking beings not related to each other is a bit uncalled for.
  36. 11 points
    I didn't, but that is just where I think we'll have to agree to disagree. What I don't get is that last sentence... I see no evidence, that they are heading in that direction. Not as long as she is still fractured. Veil might, but "Shallan" is acting like a downright cremhole (pardon my french) towards Kaladin during Oathbringer, because she pushed off her feelings for him to Veil. Yes, she laughs about the boots as a gift, but I think, that is more a semblance of the real Shallan coming through at times. "Shallan" is still just a mask, that resents Kaladin, because she thinks she must do that to love Adolin. It is a skewed thought, but I did interpret it like that, because she is always acting like that when Adolin is in the scene and well... they are now married. I don't think that will make it easier. Nope and yes. You are partly right, that they are an escape, but Shallan flat-out lost those aspects of herself. And directly after that, look how she turns unconfident again. All her confidence lies by Veil. Just focusing on her current "real" personality won't do the trick. Veil and Radiant are manifestations of her personality facets, but she needs to reintegrate them back into herself not just control them. Otherwise she won't be the real Shallan again. The current Shallan is Shallan minus confidence, boldness, strength and pragmatism.
  37. 11 points
    Bridge 4 is continuing to add to their numbers, people who didn't go though what the original members did. I would argue the trials they went through forged bridge 4 but isn't what makes someone a member of bridge 4. The ideals of unity and protection are what make someone a member of bridge 4. Also, Moash has made decisions to take him away from bridge 4, he took a shard blade and plate, he tried to kill Kaladin, and how he killed someone Kaladin was trying to protect. His salute feels like he is spiting in the face of everything bridge 4 stood for.
  38. 10 points
    "Right now?" Kaladin asked, standing on the practise field outside Urithiru. "I believe so," the messenger replied. "The highprince seemed to be in a hurry about this." "Teft," Kaladin said, "you will now lead the training, Lopen and Rock will assist. I'll see you this evening." Teft saluted and barked the squires to get back to practise. "Where is Dalinar?" Kaladin asked the messenger, who gave him instructions. Kaladin took to the air and landed on the balcony of the meeting room a short flight later. Inside, many people were already gathered; Dalinar stood next to the table, Navani just behind him. Just next to them, Adolin and Shallan sat next to one another, talking softly. Jasnah was sitting at the head of the table, wearing her crown, looking composed as always. To Kaladin's surprise, all highprinces that had taken up residence in Urithiru, as well as most of their wives - and of course Sebarial's mistress - were present. "Ah, Kaladin," Dalinar said. "It is good to see you have arrived. Please, sit down." He gestured to a seat at the table. Hesistantly, Kaladin sat down between the highprinces. "I feel like we have already waited with this too long," Dalinar said. Jasnah gave him a look. "Apologies." "Thanks," the queen said. "I do agree with you, however, we really do need to deal with this. So let's get to the point. As you are, without doubt, all aware, Ialai has fled Urithiru after the battle at Thaylen City. Though the royal succession has already been taken care of, with me reigning queen until Gavinor comes of age, the princedom that formerly belonged to house Sadeas has no highprince right now, as Amaram has been killed at Thaylen City after it turned out he had been working with the enemy. "Therefore," she continued, "the princedom is in need of a new highprince. By tradition, when there is no heir a highprince is chosen by the highlords of the princedom. However, after the battle the remaining highlords are in no position to do so, and some of them are not even in Urithiru. On top of that, the tradition may be ripe for a change, as Alethkar is no longer a kingdom divided into ten princedoms, but now has a single ruler. Lastly, the crown does not trust the judgement of those who formerly served under highprince Torol Sadeas, considering his attempts to undermine the kingdom in recent years. "Taking this all in consideration, I believe it best to personally appoint the new highprince, though I will take into account your thoughts regarding the matter as we cannot continue to be divided, like house Sadeas has, in the past, been a dividing factor. My proposal for the new highprince is a person who originates from the Sadeas princedom, and who has been one of our most trustworthy and dependable people in these recent times, as well as being one of our first Radiants. If there are no objections, I would name Kaladin Stormblessed as highprince of the former Sadeas princedom." Kaladin sat, stunned. Everything remained silent for several seconds, though Shallan looked stupified. Highprince Aladar was the first who recovered. "Your Grace, while I have the deepest respect for Radiant Kaladin," he said, carefully choosing his words, "I have to object him becoming a highprince. Though I mean no offense by this, he is still a darkeyed man, while a highprince is expected to be a lighteyes." "Is it not time for change, though?" Jasnah asked. "We are in a Desolation, and Kaladin is not only a good fit, but additionally he is a Radiant, which means that darkeyes or lighteyes does not matter as much to him. After all, if he were to summon his Shardblade, his eyes would turn blue." "Your Grace," Aladar continued, "if Radiants would be exempt from the traditions of lighteyes and darkeyes, should they not also be exempt from direct positions of nobility?" "I second that, Your Grace," Ruthar said. "We cannot ignore two thousand years of custom just like this. Let us leave this matter to the princedom's highlords, like we have always done. I do not see why we would need to change this." "Do not try to tell me they are even in a position to do so," Jasnah said. "Both you and I know that, even if they were able to get together and choose a new highprince, that highprince would be considered suspect by everyone, considering house Sadeas' recent track record. No, we will choose a new highprince here and now. If you have a suggestion other than Kaladin, please say so now." Ruthar sputtered a bit more, but a stern look from Jasnah made him stop. A few seconds of silence followed. "Your Grace," Kaladin said, "I do not wish anything of the sort. I believe you are aware of my... views on lighteyes." "I am," Jasnah said. "And I hope that my uncle, at the very least, has proven you wrong. Additionally, you yourself get a chance to do so. I know you can do better than those who wronged you." "What's wrong with it?" Sebarial asked in a loud voice, adressing everyone. "He's a good storming man, we all know that, he's shown leadership as a Radiant, and he'll without doubt be a good man for those living under his rule. What more can one wish for in a leader?" "Experience," Hatham countered immediately. "Kaladin is a natural leader," Dalinar said. "I have seen him daily when he was head of my guard, and he commands respect not through eye colour or strength, but through being himself. The only flaw that Kaladin has in his leadership, as far as I have been able to observe, is that he cares too much about his subjects. I would argue there are worse flaws a highprince could have. "Kaladin," he continued, "I, too, have to ask this of you. We need to stand united as Alethkar, and we are in a position to mend the chasm between the Sadeas princedom and Alethkar. On top of that, the Sadeas soldiers are a disorganized, trouble-making lot, and I do not believe anyone would be better suited to turn that into a real, dependable army than you." "But they would never accept me," Kaladin said. "I'm a former slave in their army." "Former," Dalinar said. "Now, you are a Knight Radiant, and a symbol to everyone. They cannot just ignore that. Remember that all men look up to who leads them, and follow him in everything. Even though the Sadeas soldiers have followed Torol and later Amaram, that does not mean they actually do share their ideals and opinions. When they see you, even though they have been told in the past to dislike or even hate you, they will still see the Radiant, the symbol. And with your leadership abilities, I do not believe it will take long before they come to respect not only the symbol, but also you yourself, Stormblessed." "I don't have a choice, do I?" "You storming always have a choice," Sebarial said. "If you don't like it, just walk away, they can't very well force it upon you!" "Storm it," Kaladin said. "Storm it. You knew, didn't you? I'd think about all the people, and you knew I couldn't say no then, didn't you?" No one replied. "I'll do it," Kaladin said. "I'll make the best storming soldiers out of them you've ever seen. But once all this is over, if there's still a princedom to rule, it goes to someone else."
  39. 10 points
    I've mentioned this a couple times before, but I think I need to post it. Shallan's final truth will be "I am Shallan Davar." This is based on the whole "I am the Law" thing, and possibly "I am Unity" being the words for the fifth oath, even if he didn't actually swear it yet.
  40. 10 points
    So here we’re a month later and were to we stand? Well, I thought that I should try to make a summery, in order to assist people that are just now joining us. Some of the stuff mentioned below are re-purposed from the feedback email I send BS though his website, because I think it encapsulates our thoughts and criticisms well enough. The text in it was checked by @PhineasGage so part of the credit goes to them as well, they did an amazing job in helping me get my point across. The main concerns regard the portrayal of dealing with mental issues, the developments as a character of the female protagonist, and the apparent lack of fulfillment of promises made through this book and parts of the previous one. Many of us feel that the resolution of the protagonist's mental issues were not solved in a medically realistic manner and were only used to advance the plot line. Another point of consternation is the apparent need for the female protagonist (Shallan) to be rescued from her struggles by a traditional male archetype (Adolin). This results in him “enabling” her, so to speak, This would be bad enough from a feminist perspective, but the idea of him seeing the “real” Shallan is also incorrect when the kind of discussing dissociative states she has, and that matter is ignored so that another arranged marriage could be brought to conclusion. It is felt this has perhaps been overdone. Lastly, it is felt by many readers that false promises were made through the text regarding the progression of two characters (Kaladin and Shallan) and their relationship, but were not addressed in a satisfying manner no matter where they might have led. As result readers who got invested in said characters are feeling upset, deceived, toyed with and, personally, that their favorite character was mishandled in order to be needlessly used as a plot device. We feel that this diminishes Kaladin’s value in the storyline simply to progress a romantic story line that is written in a very archetypal fashion. Let me know if I missed anything. Moving on, I'll try to list what has been further discussed in this thread. It is felt that motherhood for Shallan, at this point of her life, would not be an advisable course, not only for the child but her as well. Adolin should be further developed as character and face the consequences of his actions, no matter if they were moral or immoral, because Sadeas murder was presented as something that would have ramifications. This wasn't shown in text, but instead it was glossed over. Possibilities for the further development of him included a darker future for him, as it's quite impossible for him to get more perfect than he already is, not to mention that it would be dull. The marriage of those two characters feels quite rushed with a large number of issues that need to be addressed for it to be successful. These matters should be addressed in a believable manner and with an open mind, which means that if they cannot be believably resolved then the marriage should be terminated, as to preserve the interest in the development of both characters. Another interesting plot plot-point that has been brought up is the possible fraying of the bond between Shallan and Pattern due to her self-deception and lack of self-awareness. This is supported by instances in text where Pattern displays odd behavior that could suggest that his mental capacity is diminishing. This is only an attempt to list important points that it is felt that should be addressed and I'd be willing to add more if they are pointed out for me, as I have only listed the ones I remember from my daily perusal of this thread. Here I'll list some links of two popular theories, one of them is my own and the other is that of @DeployParachute. This was an attempt to summerize what has been discussed over the past month. I hope it it is helpful for people that are just joining, as well as a reminder for people that have been here since the beginning. I thought that this would be a good point in time to make this post as the thread is almost 60 pages long and has become a daunting task to sift through.
  41. 10 points
    Galen awoke to see the soldiers being pushed back, felt Riri’s weight being lifted from him. Everything hurt. Fire, all around. People shouting. Screaming. He groaned, the sound strangely loud in his own hears. He lifted his head. There was a lot of blood on his once pristine shirt. Blood from his arm, which had a nasty looking cut. His head felt light. Riri… where was Riri? Gasping, he pushed himself up with his good arm, crawling to his knees. He saw a flash of color, Riri’s dress, in the crowd. He allowed himself a sigh of relief. Laughing, cackling. Hysterical and wild. Galen looked up, to see the skaa at the window laughing at the crowd below. His face set. Pushing himself up, he picked up a sword from a fallen soldier, and strode into the burning building. Rust, Gale, what are you thinking? Think you’ve gotten any better with that sword? He continued to walk forward, sword extended. Fire blazed all around. He tested each step, covered his mouth with his coat. This woman had tried to kill his sister. His sister. She’d made it personal. Gale, you fool. You’ve been reading too many novels. He ignored the voice, continuing to stride. All his life, running away from responsibility. When his House had been attacked, he had risen up, and tried to prove himself. Yet when Tekiel had offered to help, he had gladly pushed off some of the responsibility again, and had been proved a fool. All his life… could he actually fulfil one of his responsibilities well? His House had come close, but it had been personal enough. This…This was something he would not let go of. The smoke stung his eyes, made them water. Finally reaching the top floor, he paused as he saw the skaa, surrounded by five black clad soldiers. The woman stopped dancing when she saw him. Her voice was venom. “Kill him.” Time seemed to slow for Galen. So this is how I die. The soldiers drew their weapons and charged. Every movement seemed slowed, unreal. His heartbeat was loud in his ears. This is stupid. At least…his death would be worth it, right? This was the last skaa. If she died… they would all be safe. Riri, Darquez, Faron, Manu, Adela… they would all be safe. But he would be dead. Sorry, Riri… The soldiers were almost on him. He stared past them at the skaa. He dropped his sword. He picked up a burning piece of floor. He swung. He charged. The soldiers scattered. His side was pierced. He gasped in pain. Momentum carried him forward. He saw fear in her eyes as he pushed the skaa out of the window. Then the soldiers were upon him. Pain blossomed in every part of him. He found himself crying. I… I’m sorry, Riri… Lemon was lynched! They were a normal Skaa. Doc died! He was a Noble Duraluminium Gnat! The game is not over! Please give all credit to @Doc12 for the writeup, find a post of his and upvote it a lot! I am mobile so no player list for a few hours. (Sorry)
  42. 10 points
    A quick drawing of Shallan and Veil
  43. 10 points
    Discussion of intent has come up quite a bit lately, so I feel it's about time to formally put down this theory. I've listed many of the points I'll make here elsewhere, but I've never strung them together in one place (excluding Discord). Section 1: Origins To begin, we must address the Shattering. We know that a group consisting of at least 16 people somehow killed a divine entity, and split it's power among themselves. Each of these pieces has an intent which demands the power they hold be used in certain ways. I believe that these intents are quite literally Adonalsium torn asunder. I believe that Adonalsium had no Vessel. The sheer amount of investiture that comprised the sum of all shards means that when it developed a mind it easily surpassed sentience, and became a sapient being. When a Shard is splintered, the Vessel is no longer holding the power and it is separated from the mind that guided it, whether that Vessel was killed or merely gave up the power. This was not an option for Adonalsium. It was the power. When it was Shattered, the mind was shattered with it, and the remnants of that mind became the intents that drive the Shards we know. Section 2: Interpretation The intents of the shard are, by this idea, far more malleable than is often stated. This is speculation, and I base it largely on Ati, and I see no real way to confirm or deny this until we see a single shard change hands and be held long enough to express its intent. A mind is needed to guide the Shard. The Vessels can alter the way that that power is made manifest. My view on this, is that the names of the Shards that we know is not the pure intent of the Shards themselves, but the interpretation of that core concept by their Vessel. Much of this grew out of my head canon for Ati. In the letters between Hoid and Frost we are told that Ati was a "kind and gentle man," and yet he become a monster that reveled in the death and suffering of all. I believe that the kind and gentle man viewed Ruin as a monstrous force that needed to be contained, and Leras agreed with him. They worked together to attempt to contain this immeasurable force. It was Ati's belief that was his undoing. His interpretation of the force of Ruin as monstrous and destructive created the very monster that he feared. His interpretation forced the Shard to manifest in the way he believed, and this was so at odds with his nature that it overcame and consumed him. But a Shard still requires a mind to guide it. So while his interpretation of Ruin subsumed his personality, it was still shaped by the belief that caused it to be so violent and sadistic. Sazed in contrast views Ruin as a natural force. I don't think he would become that creature even if he held only Ruin. For a hypothetical example of what I mean, look at Vin. She did not hold the Shard of Preservation long enough for us to know what the outcome would be. Considering her immediate actions, I propose that she could have been called "Salvation" or "Protection." Shifting the focus away from stasis, to "preserving" life. It is a drastically different interpretation of a concept that exists at the core of both words. The protection of what is. Due to this interpretation, I don't believe that any attempt to categories the Shards is possible until we see them with different Vessels and are able to try and determine what the actual core concept of each is, and what was actually taken from Adonalsium itself. So perhaps Rayse is not lying, and Passion truly is the core intent of what he holds. The name Odium is known though, and regardless of what he states, I think it is the intent he has made manifest.
  44. 10 points
    "The ASSASSIN IN WHITE!" "Yes." "The ASSASSIN! IN WHITE!" "Yes." "I can't be the only one who remembers, you know, the assassination?" "You are not." "By an Assassin, one in White?" "Look we've been over this." "THE EVERSTORMING ASSASSIN IN EVERSTORMING WHITE!" "Sigh...."
  45. 10 points
    Nice scene, @Song ! I actually want to continue that...
  46. 10 points
    Syl isn't a horse... Fantasy and sci-fi are wrought with interspecies relationships. Dwarves and Elves and Humans. Syl and Kaladin are both intelligent individuals capable of making their own decisions, developing relationships, and giving consent. Gallant can't. I don't have an issue with a listener and human relationship, or siah aimian and human, or siah aimian and listener. You might, and you might have a problem with Aragorn and Arwen, or Eragon and Arya for the reasons you stated, in which case I think you can stand by your argument I guess. But it is something that happens consistently. For me the biggest problem I have with Syladin is simply a lack of understanding of spren biology, and that is only assuming that people want their relationship to evolve physically. For me I just love the relationship that has developed between the two. I see it as a wonderful friendship that I hope to see evolve more, whichever route Brandon takes. I appreciated the tender moments between Syl and Kal in Shadesmar.
  47. 10 points
    Morning all I am so glad to have some deep thoughts that counter mine - makes the thread seem less bubble like So thanks especially to @maxal and @Ookla the Feathered for their posts. That said, I am going to counter them! I disagree. Dalinar is looking for legal ways to handle Sadeas. Adolin stews. Shallan finds the dueling way by reminding them of the King's Boon. Adolin even acknowledges that he'd forgotten about Yenev's duel with Sadeas - which suggests that he had some idea about how it went down but wasn't thinking about it as an option (nb doesn't fit with an Edgedancer motif but anyway) . I would argue that because Adolin has multiple encounters with Sadeas where he struggles to contain his rage that he is not capable of thinking of a legal way of handling it. I don't blame him for being angry, but it is blinding him. Indeed, this seems to be your argument for his act being moral. I disagree. Dalinar isn't thinking of Sadeas at all until he is found dead. He has to deal with the situation as is -Dalinar is not the sort of person to spend long wishing for what cannot be - he is better at "doing" than "thinking". He is also the only one to think that it is a pity that Sadeas is dead. I think it is clear he is the only one at the scene of the crime (besides Sadeas' men) who actually mourns the loss of what could have been. I am not suggesting that Dalinar was right that Sadeas could have been redeemed - but the man's death means he definitely can't be. Yes. But this is a problem in my mind. I feel like Adolin worries a bit about the fact of the murder - because he doesn't want to be caught (understandably) but not the why or the how. I also want to point out that he acknowledges that Dalinar was right about the visions (in tWoK - he stews for 5 days in text and finally realises he is glad he was wrong). So he does admit mistakes. Actually not admitting a mistake is narcissistic - Adolin isn't a narcissist because he can admit mistake. He just isn't doing so here. And whilst the murder possibly could be justified (I personally don't think it was - but I acknowledge that others might - including Adolin) I don't believe Adolin actually ever feels it was unjustified. That is concerning - most people would at least worry about what if they had made a mistake. They then rationalise it. Adolin, in contrast is worried about what others will think of him but not the actual fact that he is a murderer. Except that this is wrong. Killing Sadeas not only doesn't protect Dalinar (the whole TC thing happened because of this murder) but won't do so in the future. How far is Adolin prepared to go to protect his father? Adolin's snap decisions show a remarkable lack of foresight here, and he never admits that by killing Sadeas in the way he did, he caused the rift between Houses Kholin and Sadeas to widen to a point where they cannot ever be reconciled. That goes directly against what Dalinar is trying to do (Unite them) but the greater plan never enters Adolin's head. Wait, so Ialai's "petty" revenge (for the death of her husband, the loss of her position, the loss of her troops, the likely associated loss of her princedom) can't be used as a plotpoint to drive a greater narrative? That makes no sense - any tiny piece can be used to drive a narrative. I wouldn't have expected Shallan practicing Shardblade poses to cause her to splinter her identity, but it did. It was a relatively small moment in a much larger part of the story. There are plenty such moments. Tefts addiction is alluded to in WoR suggesting he might be broken enough for a nahel bond, Lopen holding the spheres in WoR long before he starts "drinking" in the stormlight. These can be used to propel all kinds of things. Firstly, clearly Renarin asks - because he heals Adolin. You acknowledge that then contradict yourself. We see it happen from Dalinar's perspective - which means he is watching and that he cares. He trusts the people who he sees as best able to manage to do their jobs. The Radiants job is to protect people and fight the voidbrngers - Adolin isn't one. His role of stepping up beside Dalinar as an equal has been usurped by the Radiants around him. This is something that likely bothers Adolin. Adolin sets great store by Dalinar's opinion (as you;ve noted) so this is likely a very difficult moment for him - he isn't used to being ignored - indeed Renarin, perhaps more than any of the other Radiants, gets his place as the first person to get commands. I would be interested to see how Adolin handles that. We get a tiny moment when he is less than pleased about Renarin when we see a rather uncharitable thought about Renarin arriving at the Thunderclast : "Took you long enough". He doesn't say it - he thinks it. That's not fair - it isn't Renarin's fault that Adolin got there first - they took different routes - and what is the betting that Renarin was healing people on the way? He also doesn't have any real experience fighting and moving through a battlefield yet so is it surprising that he would take longer? I don't think so. This thought is unworthy of Adolin - Renarin has never (until recently) held any kind of position above Adolin - and this is how he handles it? I personally suspect that it isn't Adolin thinking it - or perhaps it is something that it being egged on - but if I'm wrong and it is Adolin then he is definitely not as good a brother to Renarin as Renarin is to him. With regards to remembering Sadeas, look at it in text. It mirrors very well what happened during the murder: "That's it." in WoR and "Sadeas. Don't forget Sadeas." The emphasis is in book. This reads (a) very like Ruin and Vin and (b) even if it isn't Odium speaking, trying to drive thoughts in, it suggests that Adolin has not completely dealt with the situation yet - indeed he may be doing what Shallan did by suppressing his memories - he just isn't as good at it as she is - he suppressed his thoughts by getting into combat. Well fair enough. I don't believe this. Mainly because given other books, BS tends to write with foreshadowing in mind and that all actions have consequences that ripple across several books. I think you mean Dalinar here? I am going to assume so while making my point: Dalinar didn't hate Adolin and Renarin. He hated himself and was projecting that feeling onto his boys. We see the way Renarin and he hug at the end of one of the flashbacks that he doesn't hate them. He just can't handle the self-loathing and guilt. Once those emotions are removed, I suspect that the relationships normalised. We get no indication of a strained relationship between either son and Dalinar. I also think that Dalinar put Adolin's safety very highly - but he also understood that Adolin couldn't be a successful Highprince if he didn't get the necessary training and authority. To a warrior culture like the Alethi, that means battle. I would say that Dalinar is thus protecting Adolin the best way he knows how. They fight together until Dalinar can no longer go into battle - and Dalinar is literally the best there is and he considers Adolin an equal. He also values Adolin's opinion over everyone else's. We see him think of Adolin more than any other single person - especially in tWoK, but it is also true, albeit to a lesser extent in WoR. Anyway, I would suggest that the fact that Dalinar thinking he "hated" his sons being the impetus for him seeking the Old Magic, is the best indicator that he did'nt hate them - he was prepared to risk a lot to seek the Nightwatcher - including getting vengeance for Gavilar, blasphemy, physical harm, and failure just to try and fix things. The thing is, he doesn't wonder about guilt. He isn't sure whether to feel pride or shame. Shame and guilt are not the same thing. You can feel guilt for something but not shame. They are often simultaneous, but are not necesserily so. Shame is about how you will be perceived, guilt is how you perceive yourself. I would argue that shame fits with Adolin's desire to appear "good" and "proper" and "attractive" to those around him (eg why he is fashionable) but guilt is something that people feel because they judge themselves. Firstly - Adolin doesn't "take responsibility" for the murder because he essentially argues it wasn't murder it was justice. I would argue that it was vengeance, not justice, and thus he should take responsibility for it. Instead he says he would do it again. I predict we will see him kill again in a similar fashion as a result of that line - Adolin is quite good at predicting his own actions. He predicted that he would kill Sadeas after all when he threatened the man in WoR. Secondly, I would (and have) argued that Amaram was falling the way of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" and that this is what Adolin might be doing. Potentially any negative thought that you have might be a hook into Odium - he is extraordinarily dangerous - more so because he initially seems benign. It is no accident that he appears as a kindly old grandfatherly figure. If he looked dangerous, fewer people would be ensnared. The Listeners weren't inherently evil, and they've gone with Odium because they were desperate and afraid. Neither of those are "negatve" in the truest sense of the word, but they are unpleasant emotions. People want to be rid of them, and given long enough in fear - most people will take the "easier" way out. It isn't "weakness" it is human nature - we are inherently flawed. A) As I said, the fact that he isn't feeling them is what worries me - where are the emotions that we would expect? (b) If I am judging your comment rightly, this is the WoB you are referencing: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/44-minicon-2015/#e659 I personally see this as it being Adolin's choice - he wasn't influenced - but that doesn't mean he hasnt opened a door to more problems down the road. Indeed I would argue that Amaram was in the same place to begin with - I think he had already started on that path long before he killed Kaladin's men (he knew of Gavilar's plan for example) but he still had to be convinced to kill Kaladin's men - and he felt guilty about it. I suspect that Odium doesn't influence people the way Ruin did - it is far easier to manipulate people into making their own choices and live to rue the day. That way they can't actually live with themselves. Dalinar only managed to get through it because he'd had time to confront his past, and understand that he wasn't the same person as he had been on the day of Evi's death. And? Neither Dalinar nor Renarin react as extremely as Adolin does. Indeed, it appears that most of the warcamps are saying this kind of thing, but Adolin only really hates Sadeas for it. He never hates Aladar or Ruthar in the same way. What about the others who lambast Dalinar in Adolin's presence in tWoK when they are out drinking wine. He just brushed it off - even from the woman (Danlan at the time) he was courting who says he probably didn't need to step down but he did need to relax the codes. The others are pretty rue to Adolin and Dalinar but he doesn't get violent with them. Again, it comes down to Adolin's need to be perceived in a certain way, and this is extended to his House. I just don't see why this hated is justified when we see no other character hate Sadeas the way Adolin does. Not even Kaladin hates him in the same way - and he (in my opinion) had a great deal more reason to hate him. If Adolin had stormlight the way Kaladin has it when Kal considers killing Amaram, do we honestly think Adolin would have even thought twice about it? I need to see this WoB because honestly, it makes no sense - Sadeas attempts assassination on Dalinar (the bridge/carpenter) and when there is an assassination attempt on Elhokar (the cut balcony) Sadeas and Ialai debate which of the highprinces likely made the attempt. On top of that, when Elhokar is worried about how Dalinar is handling the highprinces, he says "they will send assassins" - and no-one corrects it. Indeed they investgate an assassination attempt in tWoK - even tho they worry Elhokar is paranoid. In WoR prologue we see Jasnah hire an assassin to deal with the future Queen and she explicitly says that she has hired many more to protect her family. When Gavilar is dying he asks Szeth who sends him and wonders, amongst other things, whether Sadeas and Restares (likely Altethi court member but unclear) are the peole who hire Szeth to kill him...... Assassination not a part of the Alethi court? If WoB is genuinely that then frankly I have to wonder if he has read his books..... The only WoB I could find on this subject is this one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e5015 Which to me suggests that it was done but you kept your involvement quiet to avoid dishonour. Yes I agree. He nearly hits Sadeas in a major meeting and Amaram stops him. He also threatens Sadeas in this scene: I am of the opinion that he wouldn't have been able to stop himself at a single punch - even at this point - he is too deeply angry at Sadeas. Those other characters reacted to an immediate threat (Shallan), or were conducting the business of war in which killing is a requirement (Kaladin), or were similarly vilified (Dalinar). Adolin is held to the standard he is being held to because intent matters. Let's have a look at the different murders/deaths we've seen. 1) Kaladin - let's be clear - a) Kaladin did not kill Szeth (after the retcon) so we have never seen Kaladin kill outside the field of battle and even then he actually feels bad doing it. Indeed in OB he freezes as a direct consequence of being unable to reconcile protecting and killing. Obviously this will be something dealt with in book 4 and he will swear his 4th ideal as a consequence. 2) Dalinar - was a monster as a younger man. It is clearly written and he pays a huge price for it. He feels guilt which he hides in the Thrill or in the alcholol until he can no longer do either which is then when he seeks the NW. Then he loses a huge chunk of himself so that he can grow into a better man. And Dalinar still pays every day for those murders - he lives by the codes so strictly because he cannot trust himself to behave well without a rigid code enforced upon him 3) Shallan - I'll take these 3 (Tyn, Lin, her mother) in reverse order a) Tyn - this was self defence, pure and simple. Tyn was planning on killing Shallan as soon as she found out Shallan was Jasnah's ward. It was literally kill or be killed - especially as the only weapon Shallan had was a shardblade which is difficult to wield without killing someone. She feels some "depression" at killing Tyn, but she does it during a moment of dissociation (she goes cold/numb) and there really was no other way out. She regrets the necessity of killing Tyn - because she liked her - despite the fact of her being an assassin. This doesn't compare to Adolin/Sadeas which was not in anyway like immediate self defence because Adolin attacks first. Indeed, if Sadeas had killed Adolin in this fight, his defence would have been the same as Shallan's. Adolin's however, isn't. (b) Lin Davar - this, from what we have seen, is the closest to "true" murder of the three killings we see from Shallan. She finds Melise dead and then goes to prepare her father's wine with poison because she (rightly) predicts that he has finally lost control and is a risk to everyone in the household. They are in the middle of a highstorm so she cannot go for help. Her brothers are too undermined to act in her stead or to prevent Lin's actions without bloodshed. There is literally only one outcome that can happen to prevent a likely massacre at the Davar home, and that is to kill Lin. Shallan does plan it, and she continues to act (ie by strangling after the poison fails) until the desired outcome is achieved. She however does feel guilt about it. She cries as she kills her father, she apologises, and she thanks him for what he did for her. She feels terrible about it, but has to act for the good of the rest of the family. On top of that we have a very long history of abuse in this household. It is unclear how much happened prior to Shallan's mother's death, but it is clear that Lin has done a great deal of damage to his children by this point - indeed, I suspect that none of them really understand non-violent resolutions to situations as a result of his parenting. (c) Shallan's mother (do we actually know her name?) - this is also self defence - and most importantly, we have the least evidence about it. We also know that Shallan is so devastated by her actions that she doesn't speak for months and spends much of her time in a dissociative trance. She may not express herself as "guilty" although she describes her self as a monster, both in the moments afterwards, and much later to Wit so I think she feels guilty. Certainly, the acknowledgement of this event is partly to blame for her shattering her identity. As a result, I don't think I am holding Adolin to a different standard. Kaladin's situation never parallels his, and Shallan and Dalinar are literally broken by the murders they have committed. Adolin on the other hand just seems to brush it off. Indeed. And on top of that, taking a life of someone for selfish reasons should inspire some reflections of guilt, and yet we don't see it - indeed Adolin says he;d do it again. So we need to warn anyone he "hates" because apparently he thinks it is sufficient justification. I agree to an extent. Resposnibility is certainly important for KR - so if Adolin is to not become one, it is much less important for his arc in theory. On the other had, avoiding responsibility is important for those we have seen "go dark". Indeed, Szeth is followed by Odium when he attempts to kill Dalinar (the first time in WoR) because he isn't taking responsibility. I don't believe Szeth was influenced by Odium directly, but that doesn't mean he wasn't being used as a tool for Odium in some way. I suspect that Szeth's rebirth has helped him cut whatever links he had to Odium, and he is slowly taking responisbility now - though he still has a way to go in my opinion. Yes I agree, it isn't healthy. I also think that he could have written the actual murder in such a way to make it feel more like justice than vengeance. I can sympathise with Shallan's killings for example, but Adolin and Dalinar's are alike and thus need more ramifications for the societal structure to remain intact. I would argue that Adolin has "broken his social contract" twice here - once by killing Sadeas, and second by failing to feel guilt for the action. Yes I agree with this. Adolin has got too much out of this transaction - it feels unbalanced. Hmm. I sort of disagree with this, though I understand your position. I would say that Adolin's actions are more understandable than Szeth's, but not more defensible. Szeth has a contract, one that according to his own codes (and those of his people) he cannot break. He must do what he is told. To him, the highest law is the person who held his oathstone - and to break that is worse than any "lesser law" (to his perception anyway). Szeth is neither good nor evil - from a DnD (yes its back) perspective, he is lawful neutral. He will obey the laws he holds highest no matter their intents or consequences. Under Shin law I would expect him to be exonerated. Indeed, his punishment for being Truthless is that he is no longer allowed to self-determine in any way and thus has no agency. Yes he could break his own code, but in his mind, that is worse than what he already doing. Therefore he does the least bad thing possible in a world where he only has bad options. Adolin, on the other hand, has complete agency. He could choose to try and have Sadeas dealt with in a legal matter. Dalinar currently holds all the real political power in Urithiru - so sorting a legal trial or whatever would likely be possible. On top of that, Sadeas has just threatened House Kholin whose reputation has just proven to be that of honour and honesty - even when it isn't convenient. Adolin's word as a result would hold a lot of weight. Dalinar also is a KR and that plus Kaladin plus Shallan puts the Kholin house in a very powerful position. They probably could have manipulated the situation to get justice in a more formal way. And lastly, unless the plot is dropped entirely, then who is to say that killing Sadeas has prevented pain and trouble for the Kholins? Sadeas' death caused trouble at TC and certainly opened the door for Odium to take control of people (through the Thrill if I understood the situation properly) and if the plot continues then it could easily cause more. Dalinar suggests that Adoline needs to go through some sort of "atonement" - and that in itself may cause problems for more than just Adolin. Until the books are finished, we cannot be absolutely sure that there are not going to be rippling effects from now on. I know some others have commented on this, and have done so in a much more measured way, but honestly, this just annoys me. You clearly haven't read the thread properly at all so let me summarise the actual points made on this thread: Most people here don't like how Shallan picked Adolin - it does no credit to either of them and could have been done much better to make them seem more real and less insubstantial Adolin has acted once in a way that is described as sociopathic (that is an action that is seen as being "antisocia"l and thus against the cultural, moral and legal norms of a society). He is not a sociopath, but his murder of Sadeas was a sociopathic action. Adolin is portrayed in the books by other PoV characters and they tend to represent him as a perfect prince charming. Whether or not he is one is not the issue - we get most of his story from other people. He is not a "rage monster" - he acted in rage and has shown impulsiveness which is worsened when he is angry. I know it is a long thread, but that is 4 mischaracterisations in one paragraph. I get you don't agree with many of the people in the thread, but it's just insulting to be dismissed with these kind of incorrect statements. Your further points have merit, and I hope to do them justice - but I would like the favour to be returned in kind.. (a) I agree that Adolin is likely not a serial killer in waiting. He shows no potential hallmarks of it, except his lack of guilt. That is concerning, but on its own is not enough to put him on someone's radar - his actions do not imply that his lack of guilt is causing him to reevaluate the moral code he normally lives by. That doesn't have to remain true, of course so there are some things I would watch out for in future books, but I don't necessarily expect him to go dark. (b) Online dictionary: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/vigilante?s=t for vigilante - note that vigilante justice is described thus: "done violently and summarily, without recourse to lawful procedures: vigilante justice." This is obviously therefore the opposite of actual justice. I would be very surprised therefore if the Skybreakers would actually have any truck with it. They would have needed legal permission for the execution, although the fact of Sadeas' death wouldn't likely be a problem except in that it was an illegal act. (c) Sadeas didn't "murder" half the Kholin soldiers. Well, at least, under English law, the clear defence would be a lack of causation. The Parshendi killed the Kholin men. Sadeas' action certainly increased the odds of the mission failure - but they didn't actually guarantee it. From the wiki: In this case, the main action is the war with the Parshendi - Sadeas' actions are reprehensible and should have been dealt with (it would likely be considered some kind of military crime - eg desertion of some form) by the legal system. But it isn't murder because it happens in the context of a situation where Kholin troops are already in harms way. Under civilian rather than military law, Sadeas is under no legal obligation to help them even with a prior agreement. I would be happy to hear some military legal advice on this because I suspect there is something different there, but even then I would argue that these are two allied militray forces, rather than a single army. As such, the laws would likely not be applied anyway - do we prosecute allied forces for failing to rescue our soldiers despite alliances? And this is where I personally expect most consequences to come from. Because I deeply believe that there were other options, but that Adolin chose to ignore them. I can't find this WoB - can you link me please? The only one I could find is this one: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/223-words-of-radiance-seattle-signing/#e6055 Which directly contradicts it - and maybe suggests you'd be more WR than SB If you can justify Sadeas' death with the WR ideals anyway. So here is how I personally read that scene: Neither Shallan nor Kaladin are ready for a serious relationship - with each other or with anyone else. They are both looking for ways to heal and hope to find someone to heal them rather than heal themselves. I think this misunderstanding is necessary for their relationship to proceed because they need to be well as individuals before they can be part of healthy relationships - again either with each other or other people. I also think Kaladin sees something he needs to see here a bit - he is still struggling from the effects of the fight at the palace where his own ability to lie to himself has been stripped from him. Of course he envies that ability in Shallan. He doesn't know the damage she has done to herself because she has never explained the extent of her self-deception to him. It isn't really fair for her to blame him. But equally, it wouldn't be fair for him to expect her to understand his perspective. This personally strikes me as the classic "misunderstanding" that occurs about 2/3rd of the way through a standard romantic arc - it is just that in the trope that misunderstanding causes anger and resentment rather than the more benign emotions we see from Kaladin and Shallan - but once the misunderstanding is over, there is still opportunity. No-one here has said Adolin isn't or won't be supportive. The problem is how he is being supportive. By treating Shallan's identities as separate rather than facets of the whole he is likely to reinforce her separation rather than help her reintegrate. It isn't his fault if that is the case, but that doesn't mean that those actions aren't responsible for her not reintegrating. Given the timeskip, I anticiptae that Shallan will be in no better a place (from an identity perspective) at the beginning of SA4 than she is at the end of WoR and I firmly believe that she is not in a good place. She is a mess, and whilst she my have taken the first step, I don't think she'll take the next during the time-skip. That means Adolin isn't actually helping - no matter his intentions. On top of that, how is she good for Adolin? It isn't fair that he is the one that has to do all the work in the relationship and currently I think that is the direction they are heading in. Interestingly I think Vin and Elend are a better reflection of Shallan/Kaladin than Adolin/Shallan. Spoliers Mistborn Era 1: Anyway, my point is that we can see what we want to see - there will be parallels between any completed romantic arc written by the same author. I just don't think Shallan is done with her romantic plot yet. Indeed, she may still choose Adolin, but I hope she does so for some better reasons than those she gives - they are so generic, yet Adolin has some wonderful traits that ought to be acknowledged by her. Ha, if she were given half a chance I think she would be! She is protected by both Adolin's and Kaladin's sense of propriety - neither of them push for more physicality, which is perhaps the least realistic thing in the whole fiasco They are superficial relationships - because they are all so young and they all haven't known each other that long. Real relationships take time, and ideally that time shouldn't be spent in almost constant stress. I agree. I am not sure that BS shares the opinion, but he got married in his 30s so presumably he doesn't feel that teenagers are always the best at relationships. Indeed, he says so when analysing Romeo and Juliet - he states (rightly in y opinion) that the greatest tragedy of that play is that they just needed time to get over the extremity of their emotions and then get on with life but they ended up doing stupid things because they couldn't see the wood for the trees. Pretty sure someone posted that video in this thread, but can't find it - someone help please? Indeed, I think you are right, although to be honest if the Shallan persona is enough of the "real" Shallan then it is Adolin I feel sorry for because she is actually not a very nice person - she comes off as incredibly selfish at times. I wouldn't want Shallan as she is to be with Kaladin (as I said in my very first post on this forum) because of this. I wouldn't necessarily say more cliched - there are so many romantic plots out there it would likely be impossible to write the story without some cliche. The issue is that the Shadolin cliche's speak to the Disney happy ending of the fairytale prince and princess - and we have 2 more books to the arc. So he could subvert the trope without breaking them up by adding appropriate conflicts, but it still loses all the foreshadowing for Shalladin. So I'm largely meh about Adolin - but mainly because I find the magic using characters more interesting. I don't dislike him per se, but I don't get why so many people think he's amazing. He's alright. I'd probably like him in real life but I don't read fantasy books to read "normal". I also have depression, but I am lucky enough to have a very supportive SO. I am very sorry you had a bad experience in a relationship as a result of your depression. My own experience is quite different however. I got depression about 3 years after meeting/starting dating my SO. We had lived together for about 6months before I moved to another country for school and then we lived apart - even in different timezones. About a year after that I got depressed (unrelated to our separation) and he moved over to support me. I don't think he understands my problem. He is a very level person, very much a type B personality who handles stress exceptionally well, and he doesn't get extremes of emotion. I am very much the opposite and more type A - to the extent of being aggressive in response to stress/confrontation. That being said, he is still able to support me just by being there. He has read around the subject so knows the right things to do and say, but more importantly, he knows not to assume that my bad days are anything to do with him - they aren't. That takes the pressure off him in a way because he doesn't feel at fault when I am low. He also therefore never makes me feel guilty for my bad days. As I said, I know I am very lucky. My point here was not to say that my relationship is the norm, but more to explain that whilst a serious problem can cause rifts in relationships, it doesn't have to - it depends on how much you put on the other person to help you. I don't expect my SO to help me directly - I have to fight my own mental health on my own. He can just do things like make sure I eat and sleep at decent times, and remember to pay the bills and things so I don't have quite so many stresses on bad days. I think that Shallan is expecting Adolin to help her heal. That isn't fair - he doesn't know what he's doing for one thing, and secondly, he shouldn't have to be her therapist and her husband. He also shouldn't expect it of himself - what happens when he is doing everything he can as well as he can do it? Does that mean she isn't trying hard enough or that he has failed? Of course it doesn't - but it is how most people would perceive the situation. With regards to enabling - the logical progression of someone with a problem who continues to do the thing that caused the problem is for that problem to get worse, not better. Adolin is allowing Shallan to hide within her alts. It isn't helpful. He needs to help her handle her fears in more helpful ways. If he does this, I am happy for them to grow and continue together (well aside from the foreshadowing bits, but thats another issue). The problem is that the evidence is that he is helping her solidify her alts. Awww - get well soon! Looking forward to your points I think that if you have to restrain yourself from punching someone it is possible that you would go too far in the heat of the moment. I don't think Adolin had planned to kill Sadeas in the moments before he snapped, but he wouldn't have snapped had there been witnesses as there had been previously. It was the lack of witnesses that freed him to act. *sigh* I would also argue that Jasnah's actions in Kharbranth were immoral personally. She went out of her way to put herself in danger in order to kill those thieves. She even acted before a crime had been committed against her. I doubt she knew for certain that those particular men were definitely the people who had robbed and murdered in the same place before. Sure, they probably were. but what if they weren't? There is a reason that we have the judge and jury separated in the legal system. The jury has limited say over the sentencing, and the judge has limited say over the verdict. That means they can balance their power out. In both Jasnah and Adolin's cases I would argue that they both acted as judge, jury and executioner. This is illegal because the law should not be held by one single person (you cn probably guess my opinions on Nale) because one person can make a mistake too easily - we can be blinded by our own prejudices. It is also immoral because if you make a mistake then you have condemned, sentenced and executed an innocent person. Whether or not Sadeas is a terrible human being is irrelevant - by ignoring the normal legal recourse, Adolin has undermined the very laws he is supposed to be upholding - and worse, not only would he do it again, but by hiding those actions (which seems the likely outcome by SA4) he brings Dalinar down with him by breaking those laws. Thus Sadeas' death could still have huge ramifications for the Kholin Princedom, and thus Alethkar and Roshar as a whole. He was amused - it's right there in the text. That is sadistic - definition: Pretty sure choking someone to death is extreme cruelty. I did an analysis above on these- I would agree that Shallan did commit murder on her father but that she displayed more guilt in that scene than Adolin has done since Sadeas' death. Remember by the time we first see Shallan in tWoK her father has been dead some time and she has had time to reconcile herself to it and yet she is still burying her guilt - indeed it is the 1st truth we see her speak (I am a murderer is not the same as I killed my father). I am not sure I agree with this. Remember it is Renarin that hugs Dalinar when he hits rock bottom in the flashback, not Adolin. Dalinar takes the lead when fighting Szeth ih the first attempt Szeth makes on his life. Dalinar doesn't put Adolin in the way of things when there is a better option (eg end of OB). But he does trust Adolin to manage when there isn't a better option. I think Adolin wants to feel useful and so acts like he is caring for Dalinar, but he doesn't need to and Dalinar in current events never suggests to Adolin that he needs or wants Adolin to take that role with him. Um there is this WoB which directly says he does have development That means that there is potential for growth throughout Adolin's time in the books. He has added a bigger role for Adolin and it is likely that as a result Adolin will get more development because he will be useful as a side character in multiple ways (discovery writing of a charcter allows this even more). I just don't see your evidence (sorry) - I mean the evidence is that BS picks up a theme (no matter the book) and runs with it. To a greater or lesser extent (depending on the amount of page time per character) all characters follow the themes that their story is written around. Why, in all the books, would Adolin be the exception to this? It doesn't have to come from within. It can come from an external source and there are good in world reasons to expect that to happen, but you aren't willing to entertain that thought. I personally don't think that is how Odium works. I think he nudges events at most. Amaram was responsible for his actions. Moash is responisble for his. All Odium does is allow a void to form in place of the emotions that should be present. Then humans are quite capable of filling that void with hate on their own. I suspect he inspires hate in place of other emotions, but I think he first takes those emotions. And I don't think it has to be done consciously. We know Lin Davar was acting under Odium's influence, but it is unclear how much, how long, and indeed how it started. As I've said, I worry that Adolin will go dark on us, because of the murder, but I don't think he has to. I think he still has a choice. Hopefully he'll choose well. I agree. I actually don't mind Adolin not going dark. I just worry that he could. I believe if he goes dark, then he may not be redeemed. Not sure which WoB you mean? The one I quoted above calls Renarin a Pandora's Box which is a bit of a kick in the teeth to Renarin imo. I mean, I expect Renarin is more interesting to write because he has more of the main arc attached to him. I mean Odium can't see him. Which is pretty amazing. So that means Renarin has all kinds of cool stuff to write about - including his future sight. Adolin, being more ordinary is more ordinary to write. That doesn't make him a lesser person, but BS is a fantasy writer so he wants to write about magic etc. I suspect if the Maya arc goes the way that is hinted at, then he will enjoy writing Adolin more. Agreed. Indeed they both look to each other to hide from things they don't want to confront (Adolin looks to Shallan when he is resisting being king and she nods, and he is allowing her to keep her alts) I very much agree. It happens surprisngly frequently that people kill others accidentally because they lost control. Note that control is the most important thing for Dalinar - indeed Sadeas comments that Adolin and Dalinar are alike but that Adolin controls himself less securely. Adolin has the definite possibility of going a bit Dalinar. I just hope there is enough Evi in there to stop it going full Blackthorn So I take a slightly different view (see above) but I take your final point and agree that Adolin has either not chosen to explore his motivations thoroughly, or has already decided they were good and that is why he says he would do it again. So I think him being portrayed as perfect is a feature (not a bug) of us getting views of him from other people who are inclined to think well of him. He feels more real in his own PoVs. This. So much this. I'd also blame it on the fact that Adolin's PoVs are written in the moment largely. If he does spend hours in self-reflection we never see it. I agree though, that I don't see depth. I don't see depth between Kaladin and Shallan either, though I see more potential for depth in their case. Adolin has had a tendency to prefer "vapid" young women (according to Dalinar) and I am not sure we've seen enough of him value Shallan's more intellectual side. He seems largely uninterested in the scholarship - more interested in the art itself. OK, several long posts have come in since I started this and rather than try to catch up like I normally would, I think I need to post this and take a break. I'll comment again later if I have the time.
  48. 10 points
    @Ookla the Feathered there's a lot going on in your post too I first off want to say thank you for contributing, as this is hands down the best argument I've seen for Shallan/Adolin being the endgame. Hands down. I think you fit the events within a literary perspective really well, and I've been looking for that ever since I finished OB! I want to respond to some of your specific points, but the first thing I want to note is that you came into OB really wanting Shallan to end up with Adolin (because you didn't like the Kaladin set-up), therefore you are looking at everything that happened in terms of justifying why it worked out and Shallan/Adolin is better. That's no different from someone who came into OB really wanting Shallan to end up with Kaladin (and probably for the exact same reason you didn't - those scenes which you hate, and rightfully point out display important character flaws - worked for them as a cute set-up) who now are justifying why the ending we got is not the real ending. So, just keep in mind everyone is biased Just as an aside, I had no strong preference for either ship pre-OB; I thought Brandon was leaning Shalladin, but thought that could change. I came out of OB very pro-Shalladin though, though I didn't want Shallan to be in a relationship with Kaladin at the end of OB; lots of growth needed for both of them for that to happen. I think there's quite a bit of exaggeration going on here (e.g. sociopath vs. one instance of socipathic behavior), and I don't think anyone has even mentioned (for pages and pages) in respect to the Adolin discussion that it has anything to do with him being right for Shallan or not. I don't think Shallan even comes into the discussion. I mean, in world, Shallan is fine with Adolin's murder of Sadeas, so I don't even see that murder as a valid reason for saying that Adolin wouldn't work for Shallan. I think people have different viewpoints about the morality of Adolin's actions and whether or not that will have future consequences, which is admittedly not the exact topic of this thread, but since it's gone on for over 50 pages, it's bled into a bunch of different tangents. But I think trying to pin people's various feelings on Adolin's morality in the Sadeas killing and how the author might view that in terms of a further plot arc into "you are just trying to find ways to hate Adolin because Shallan chose him" is patronizing to the discussion as a whole. In fact, this above is where I would say the bulk of posters seems to come out - that there will be something else in the future related to the Sadeas murder, and it is likely that Adolin's emotions around his killing of Sadeas (how he felt at the time and/or how he came to terms with it) will have future implications. I think your reasoning for why you feel the way you feel regarding the morality of Adolin's actions was well-thought out and I 100% agree with your conclusion, but I wish it hadn't come after making a blanket statement that the majority posters were only dissecting Adolin's character arc as a means to dismiss his relationship with Shallan. Ok, I made that point and will move on. I find this incredibly interesting. I have two main issues with the end of the love triangle. I often put this one second, but I'll deal with it first. I felt like it was a huge bait and switch, not only in terms of these meet cute shipping scenes, but in terms of oodles of symbolism and foreshadowing that ties Kaladin and Shallan together beyond the scenes themselves. By the way, I think you break down the boots scene and "Kaladin thinks it's good Shallan hides her pain" scenes (chasms and Honor's path) really well, and I think it came across strongly in the narrative that Shallan's treatment of Kaladin in the boots scene was reprehensible (he takes her to task about this in the chasms and she agrees it displayed her prejudice) as well as the fact Kaladin is incorrectly idolizing Shallan's ability to shove down emotions (it's clear this shuts down their conversation and is referenced in Shallan's speech to Adolin about why she thinks Adolin is better for her.) Where we differ, is whether or not a "long-con" is a good thing to give your readers. It's clear it worked for you, but I wonder if it would have worked had it been twisted around. If you liked the romantic set-up "stock scenes" and found a bunch of literary devices which seemed to indicate that was the author's intent but disliked the set-up for the other romance, would you still be happy at the bait and switch? I think you're a writer (right?), so it could be that you're happy with the subversion element as a literary device regardless, but of course there are many readers who aren't happy being taken on a long-con. (I would also argue our "con" didn't get cut off when Shallan chose Adolin so we're still being conned, but you can read all those points in the thread.) ETA: I just want to clarify that I don't mind a "what you see is not what you get" type of subversion, but instead the subversion of adding little literary elements to pull two characters together and then having that lead to nothing. For the "what you see if not what you get" type of subversion (I call it misdirection), you would have to make Kaladin the obvious end game in the explicit storyline with Adolin in the background and a bunch of foreshadowing that Adolin was going to be the actual choice. Instead we got the opposite, which is why it felt to me less like a plot twist and more like, just as you described it, a con. I'm not going to quote all your Adolin stuff, but suffice to say I agree with you on all of it! I think Adolin and Shallan have a great foundation for a solid relationship. Now aside from the fact I don't like being conned (see above), my main issue with Shallan choosing Adolin is not that she chose him, but how she did it. I find the idea of any woman sitting down, a man holding her hand and staring into her eyes and seeing the "real" her (or the "best" persona, or however you're interpreting what Adolin did - not going down that path about what he selects and what that could mean), to be offensive. This is obviously a personal preference; I want my female heroines to be able to stand on their own feet and recognize for themselves their real self/best persona, and then they can run into their man's waiting arms and do their romance thing. People (Shadolin supporters actually!) have redesigned that scene so it could have worked that way, so it could have totally been possible to make it a self-actualizing moment for Shallan, instead of one that, to me, makes her look weak. This is of course my personal opinion, just like it's your personal opinion that Adolin is a great match for Shallan. I think we both realize that the author can make choices for characters which we wouldn't want the characters to make, and I'm very disappointed with how Shallan makes her choice (again not who, but how), because I think it flies in the face of the strength I've seen in Brandon's other female characters. Even if the Adolin romance sticks, I'm hoping this aspect can be turned around in the next few books. Anyway, I wanted to reiterate I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts in the post! I understand that what I see as a poor literary choice (laying a bunch of literary foundation for a relationship and then subverting it) you see as a delightfully subversive long-con by the author. So I appreciate that perspective!
  49. 10 points
    And again, we have you misrepresenting what I said by applying it plural to a pattern of behaviour instead of the singular instance of behaviour that was described. I have clarified this on multiple occasions, and yet every time I open one of your comments in this thread you are doing it again. I don't know what else you have experienced here, but I can assure you, I never held any malice against you for your arguments. We can't have a discussion if everyone agrees on everything. I do take issue with you repeatedly misrepresenting what I said though - that's dishonest.
  50. 10 points

    From the album Stormlight Art of Carbonationspren

    My depiction of Jezrien's Honorblade, based off of Howard Lyon's illustration in the back of Oathbringer. I added the Windrunner glyph and some Stormlight in the background. The image viewer makes it really small since it's in portrait orientation, so click on "More Sizes" in the top right to view the larger image. You can view a stripped-down 3D version of the blade on Sketchfab at https://skfb.ly/6uZ9s

    © Carbonationspren 2017 All Rights Reserved

This leaderboard is set to Los Angeles/GMT-08:00