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  1. 27 points
    via Imgflip Meme Maker
  2. 26 points
  3. 25 points
    Looks like some people didn't see the announcement, so to clear up any confusion: you can find out more about the new Worldhopper Accounts, including exclusive content and subscription prices, at the following link. www.17thshard.com/forum/worldhopper
  4. 21 points
    I made this one a looooong time ago (though I did steal the idea from someone else who did a similar one for GRRM):
  5. 20 points
    This is a speculative theory to be sure, but I think there is a very good case to be made that the Dysian and Siah Aimians are of Cultivation. Possibly even the case that the Aimians are to Cultivation what the Honorblades are to Honor, heavily invested intentionally created splinters of Shardic Investiture created Specifically to fight Odium. I. QUICK SUMMARY OF THEORY: The Siah and Dysian Aimians are splinters of Cultivation that are Independent operatives of Cultivation that are used instrumentally to affect her long term plans. The Dysian Aimians, being deathless, never sleeping, with a body comprised of a widely dispersed array of sensate sub-organisms, are uniquely positioned to monitor everything of Interest to Cultivation. These sub-organims, the hordelings, of a given Sleepless are not just a vast sensor array (though they are that for sure), they also are able to manipulate their environment, and I believe, one of the likely ways that they are able to manipulate their environment is by increasing a proximate sentient being's access to Positive Fortune (or Luck). The Siah Aimians exist because of the strictures of the Old Magic, Fortune is both Positive and Negative, so in order to create the Dysian's Aimians Cultivation had to balance out the Sleepless' boon of bestowing Postive Fortune by creating a separate species that had a Negative Fortune (or Bad Luck) effect on proximate sentient beings. Bad luck, when controlled, can be used just as Instrumentally as good luck. I believe that the Old Magic paradigm is a net neutral framework, the positive boon has be offset (I think in equal magnitude) by the negative boon. I think this is one of the restrictions of Cutltivation's shardic Intent, and I think this is part of the aspect of natural balance that she represents. We know that Cultivation has influenced Dalinar, Lift and Taravangian directly through their intentional trips to the Valley of the Old Magic. I posit that the Aimians are more akin to her operatives in the field, responsible for gathering specific information, tracking specific people and for making infinitesimal and constant adjustments to all of Roshar to keep her plans in line. II. PRELIMINARY REMARKS: We know that Cultivation has been active on Roshar from this WoB: We also know that Cultivations shardic intent is fairly complicated, and is more compatible with the Intent of Ruin than Odium's Intent is from this WoB: This would seem to suggest that she is not a shard whose Intent would be viewed as solely Good or Bad, but rather as a more complicated case of an Abstraction of a natural process. But I believe, given the net neutral constraint of her shardic intent, she has cleverly figured out how to create tools that balance each other out, but when taken as a whole still maintain a net neutrality to the system. We know from this WoB that the Old Magic has been intentionally developed to be opaque, so the best way to approach an intentionally opaque system is reasoned surmises (added bold emphasis): I think this might be more in reference to the unpredictability of the boon/bane, but it's an interesting point. All life on Roshar, with the very possible exception of Shinovar, is Invested with Cultivations power due to the crem/highstorm cycle. All the supporting WoB's for this are spoilered below: Cultivation, through her being invested in the crem from which all food (except in Shinovar) grows and which is found in trace amounts of all water drunk on Roshar (except possible shiovar), has invested all sentient life to a small degree. I believe this would give her Aimian gardeners a sympathetic anchor for their proximate Fortune affects to push or pull on the individual Fortunes of the sentient beings that need to be effected. Here is the WoB that shows that Parshedi can bet boon/curses from the Nightwatcher as well: III. TEXTUAL AND WOB EXAMINATION OF THE AIMIANS: We know from this WoB the Aimians are functionally immortal (important bit bolded): And from this WoB: We know from this WoB that the Dysian Aimians, or Sleepless, are the authors of the In world quotes on the backs of the books: And here are the Sleepless quotes: From TWoK: From WoR: and from OB: All of these taken together show a very active and prescient degree of surveillance, the Sleepless are obviously watching the fledgling knights radiant, and further they have insight into the deep seated motivations and broken natures of the fledging Knights. There are 2 possible reasons why they are watching: They are watching in regards to their own plans/self interest. They are watching them in regards to another's plans/interests (I think this is by far the most likely) The only Dysian Aimian that we have seen as a fully articulate character (and not just an unusual cremling that happens to be around when something important is happening) is Arclo from Edgedancer. Here are some quotes that @Wit Beyond Measure pulled out of Edgedancer that are quite informative: Though honor is not captilized in the quote, it does seem to be hinting that the Sleepless may having been fighting in this war since the days when Honor the shard was still alive (but this is a surmise) and we have this: This implies a certain amount of autonomy for an individual sleepless, but also suggests a broader coordination of their collective actions as well. We know from Edgedancer that Arclo's pet immortal project is to build a grand Philosophy, but I think being immortal and never requiring sleep would give the Sleepless the time to fulfill their primary function of information gathering / slight nudges of influence to help along Cultivations plans while also tending their own pet projects. And finally this: And we have this WoB that might shed some light on how this is accomplished, specifically the holding of memories portion: So, the use of Hemalurgy on a specific singular organism would cause the Sleepless to lose contact with that individual cremling, so this seems to imply that all of the composite cremlings of a particular sleepless are linked by a Spiritual Connection. And further that the spiritual connection is necessary for the Sleepless to do things like store memories into a individual cremling. This is like a living coppermind, and I posit that some form of usable Investiture is necessary for this transferrance to occur, and is likely derived from Cultivation. This is an interesting WoB that explains a little bit more about what the Sleepless actually are (and is inline with my theory that they are a heavily Invested Identity with access to Investiture that allows them to coordinate/disperse this Identity and Connection to all of the composite beings that make up their total being: IV. THE TWO AIMIANS AND NEGATIVE AND POSITIVE FORTUNE I think that one of the fundamental properties of the Old Magic is that it is a balanced magical system. For something positive to be given, something negative has to be given as well to achieve a net neutral state. I think this is pretty obviously manifest in the nature of the boons/curses given by the Nightwatcher, but I think this might also be visible in the two different species of Aimians, with the Dysian Aimians given the boon of Positive Fortune (Good Luck) and the Siah Aimians given the curse of Negative Fortune (Bad Luck). So, we know that the Siah Aimians are believed by Rosharans to be Bad Luck, and further that they are thought to leave curses in their wake. Here is the section from the Rysn interlude in WoR where she sees our favorite spren collector hanging from his ankles: It's interesting to note that Rysn is worried most specifically about getting close to the Siah Aimian, as if the curse could be spread by mere proximity. The proof for Dysian Aimians have access to Positive Fortune is more tenuous, but I think this is a place where more textual analysis might be in order to try and find, after the appearance of a suspicious Cremling, if anything fortuitous happens to one of the Protagonists under surveillance. I will say that the we know that Hoid uses Fortune to always be where he needs to be (without knowing why he needs to be there), this could be something that the Sleepless also have, and given that their physical self is made up of innumerable small sensate organisms, this could be occurring in multiple simultaneous locations (pretty useful characteristic for a spy network to have, to always know when they need to be somewhere). And as @Wit Beyond Measure pointed out in her Moon Story Thread, there is the part in the Epilogue of WoR where Hoid is waiting for Jasnah Kholin to come back from Shadesmar and Hoid is talking to an ugly lizard-crab thing that Brandon has confirmed is a Dysian Aimian: Here's the WoB that confirms this: V. FURTHER PROOF THAT THE AIMIANS ARE WORKING WITH/FOR CULTIVATION AND AGAINST ODIUM: @Vortaan has a compelling theory that Soulcasters are similar in function and Composition to Honorblades, [OB] Soulcaster Engineering Principles. I would extend this to the reasonable surmise that Soulcasters were created by Cultivation. We know from the Kaza interlude that Roharan's used to get Soulcaster's from the Island of Akinah which is in Aimia. Further we know that at least one Dysian Aimian is guarding this Island. They could be guarding Akinah for their own reasons, or they could be guarding Akinah because they have been charged to do so. I favor the second option. One of the primary reasons the Sleepless cook gives for having to kill Kaza after she and her group penetrated the Magical Storm defense and bypassed the Soulcast shipwrecking artificial rock formations was this (bold emphasis added): The bolded portion above heavily implies that the Unmade Moleach might be able to get this information from Kaza. It is speculated in Hessi's Mythica that the Unmade Dai-Gonarthis is responsible for the Scouring of Aimia: So Aimia was (most likely) attacked by Odium, the reasons for this could be either he wanted to get something that was contained in Aimia or he wanted to destory the Aimians because they were an Antangonistic force. I believe it's a combination of both. We know from Dalina'r vision of Aharietiam that Dysian Aimians fought and died (there is a pile of smouldering cremling remains), and I believe that they have violet blood (which is described in the Prelude of TWoK when the Heralds abandon their Honorblades to be mixing on the field of battle with red and orange blood). The Sleepless themselves in the back of book quotes explicitly say that they are fighting with the New Radiants, and it is implied quite heavily, that they are fighting against the forces of Odium. But who is their general, who do they take orders from? Could be they are a group that is only protecting their own self interest, or they could be working in concert with Cultivation to try and undermine Odium's plans. And from the Urithiru Gem Archive we have a possible hint at what the Sleepless are guarding at Akinah: This is an interpolation, but with the "cost being the ends of worlds" for not keeping the secrets at Akinah protected, I think it is very likely that the undersea caverns contain the Dawn Shards. Another interesting point is that Akinah was one of the Cymatic cities that Kasbal mentions to Shallan in Kharbranth as a proof of the existence of the Almighty. VI. CONCLUDING REMARKS: This is just a theory, but I think that there is quite a bit of evidence to at the very least tie the Objectives of the Sleepless to the Objectives of Cultivation. And I think it's not too much of a stretch to say that not only do these Objectives align, but they are in fact the same, and the Sleepless are active agents of Cultivation. I think it might go even further, and that they are actually Splinters of Cultivation and further down the speculative chain, I think that the Siah Aimians are the necessary concomitant, the necessary wood left over after hewing out the perfect tool. But like I said above, I think they are still a useful tool, but in a way that is like a wrench in the machine. They are the Schlemiels that inadvertently trip a whole line of marching soldiers, they are like a living plague of bad luck, and if positioned carefully, could provide nudges in an opposite direction to the nudges from the Dysian Aimians. If this theory is true, then the Dysian Aimians are the many eyed, many limbed, fortune bestowing tools on the ground that Cultivation uses to prune and monitor her organic plans. And further they are working to actively undermine Odium's plan at the same time.
  6. 18 points
    Hello everyone, I do not expect this to be a popular post. My apologies in advance. But I have to step in here. We have deliberated and we have decided to close this topic. This post will be explaining exactly why that is. I'd like to state for the record that we are not out to get anyone. What is a forum if you can't post your opinions? That's obviously very important. People are allowed to dislike books. People are allowed to dislike things in books. This forum should be a safe place for everyone. That's the thing, though. Forums should be a place where people feel comfortable discussing things. We had this occur last month, for instance, the classic distinction in our community where some hardcore theorizers shot down some theories from newer, less hardcore members. We can do better as a community to balance, as always. So that leads us into this thread. We have seen many, many reports on this thread, with many people on all sides saying things like, "this is allowed? Seriously?" That's basically everyone. This thread has been described to us privately as "toxic" and "a cesspool." Many have told us that they never want to join in the thread again. They feel unsafe in the thread. Opinions would be attacked immediately. That's absolutely terrible and unacceptable, full stop, and we should not be okay with this being the status quo of discourse here. We on the mod team wanted to keep this open, because we know this is a contentious issue. Some will always think we're just doing this to silence criticism of Oathbringer, because I don't know, they think all the mods are yes-men who love everything Brandon written. (Never mind that that is completely false, and any day of the week you can chat with us on works some staff didn't like, some things very aggressively so.) Just know, we have let this sit for a very long time to see how things panned out, and as you can plainly see, plenty of threads that are critical of Oathbringer are visible and active right now. It's clear that this thread is causing people to feel unsafe, and that, as moderators, makes us very nervous. It really worries us that this might be the thread people see and it's one of the first they participate in, and they get into something that's very heated and they immediately nope out of the thread. You can very clearly see that members who briefly join the thread don't continue pages later. Generally discourse has been very poor in this thread, with all involved thinking they are excellent at arguing, and of course, you are definitely accepting the other side, but everyone else isn't listening to your amazing arguments. Is this you? Then you should think about that. People are making others feel unwelcome, and this is a major issue. Have rules been broken? There have definitely been attacks, and we've tried to tone things down, but the discourse hasn't really improved. I'm personally not sure what we should do as a moderator team to make better rules on things so we foster good discussion. This is a case where a thread hurts the spirit of the community while (for the most part) being within the letter of its rules. Here are some musings: A Reddit thread generally has a limited shelf life. Comments in a YouTube video die off after a while. But forums are somewhat perfectly designed for this sort of thing to evolve, where people have intense opinions and through sustained effort, drive away reasonable discourse. It's worse in this case because so much of Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin controversy has been in this thread, and so it's continually gotten more extreme as things progress. Forum topics don't close so this could literally progress ad infinitum, years from now, and that's very concerning. I think opinions have been said at this stage, in extensive detail, and don't need to be continued. When the cost to the community is the impression that the site is overall toxic, we need to act, so we have decided to close the thread, and hopefully things should cool down. Just to be clear: if you like Adolin, that is not an inherently bad thing and is not a thing that is to be said dismissively. (As in, "oh, you just like Adolin, so I'm disregarding what you say.") Similarly, critique of Adolin and saying that Kaladin and Shallan are way better for each other is a completely valid opinion to have, and we expect people to (obviously) continue to have that opinion. But we can treat people way more respectfully than has occurred in this thread. Please remember that as we move forward. People are entitled to their opinions, but at some point people are just talking over each other and it hasn't been productive for anyone. Please feel free to discuss this with me. We are always willing to listen if you have a concern, and are looking for ways to improve.
  7. 17 points
    To repeat what's already been said in different words, "character development" does not mean improvement. Yes, Shallan regressed. And? This isn't a power up anime. We aren't trying to see what the next super sayan level is.
  8. 17 points
    Disagree on pretty much everything. Kaladin is one of many "main characters" and it was nice two not have this book bold down to Kaladin saves the day. And without digging into every point... There was a lot of character development in this book. Just because it didn't go in a direction you expected/wanted doesn't mean it wasn't there. Dalinar and Shallan both had major development. Dalinar is a more complete character and had to fight to maintain who he is in his own eyes because of it. Shallan is arguably not the same character as she was at the start of the book. Those kind of changes are character development. Edit: and no, Oathbringer isn't the story I thought it would be. And that's a fantastic thing. If a writer only gives me the story I expect what's the point?
  9. 15 points
    Personally, I’m hoping for it to be the behind the scenes Marsh story he mentioned to me at a signing a couple months ago. It’s probably not, but I can hope, right? EDIT: by the way @Dunny, you totally failed with your thread title. You should have named it “there’s always another secret project”
  10. 15 points
    We need to talk about the silver plating on Vin's earring! Somewhere between the moment Vin's mother drove this little bronze spike through Vin's sister into Vin's ear, and the moment we first see Vin in Book 1, this bronze earring became plated in "silver" (which must negate its Hemalurgic effects for reasons I'll explain) and then locked away inside of a box. Even ignoring the larger implications of Silver throughout the Cosmere, and isolating our attention only at Scadrial's magic system... We know that silver on Scadrial has no known Allomantic, Feruchemical, or (most importantly) Hemalurgic properties at all. If the earring were silver-plated before spiking through Vin's sister, then that silver would have nullified the spike's ability to behave as a hemalurgic spike and accept a hemalurgic charge. In contrast, if the earring was silver-plated after receiving a hemalurgic charge, then the silver would have blocked the earring's effects on the wearer (much like Nightblood's sheath blocks his power). If this bronze earring was plated in silver, then it's logical to infer that even if Vin wore it like that (fully silver-plated), then Ruin wouldn't have been able to reach her, nor would she have been able to tap into the extra seeker properties with which the spike was charged. Interestingly enough, that silver plating was notably wearing away throughout Vin's story. From Well of Ascension - Chapter 33: "Vin stood quietly. Absently, she pulled out her bronze earring—her mother’s earring—and worked it between her fingers, watching it reflect light. It had once been gilded with silver, but that had worn off in most places." From Hero of Ages – Chapter 54: "Silver. Useless, unburnable silver. Like lead, it was one of the metals that provided no Allomantic powers at all. “An unpopular metal indeed . . .” Yomen said, nodding to the side. A servant approached Vin, bearing something on a small platter. Her mother’s earring. It was a dull thing, Allomantically, made of bronze with some silver plating. Much of the silver had worn off years ago, and the brownish bronze showed through, making the earring look to be the cheap bauble it was. “Which is why,” Yomen continued, “I am so curious as to why you would bother with an ornament such as this. I have had it tested. Silver on the outside, bronze on the inside. Why those metals?" I figure that neither Reen nor Vin could've done this silver-plating to the bronze earring. They wouldn't have been concerned in the least with having it silver-plated while they were poor and had a hard enough time staying [relatively] safe and fed. I think someone who was cosmere-aware or, at the very least, was "Ruin-aware" was responsible for having the earring silver plated. I doubt Hoid would have done this, as well. My imagination says that he would have sooner destroyed or stolen the earring if he really wanted to interfere with Ruin's plans. Hoid wouldn't have preserved the earring so carefully. The fact that the earring was neutralized/silver-plated rather than destroyed... and the fact that it was placed in a box and that box was kept rather than disposed of... well, I would guess Preservation was behind this silver-plating. I think he did what he could to influence people and events around Vin to protect her while keeping in line with his own will to 'preserve' above all else. From Hero of Ages – Sazed's final Epigraph (just before the epilogue): "Vin was special. Preservation chose her from a very young age, as I have mentioned. I believe that he was grooming her to take his power... I believe that she must have drawn some of the mist into her when she was still a child, in those brief times when she wasn’t wearing the earring. Preservation had mostly gotten her to stop wearing it by the time Kelsier recruited her, though she put it back in for a moment before joining the crew. Then, she’d left it there at his suggestion." If the earring had been placed while Vin was an infant and left in her ear, then it's a safe assumption that Ruin would have had her entire lifetime to work his influence... if, of course, it hadn't been for the presumed efforts of Preservation to buy her as much time as he could. I asked Brandon Sanderson "Who was responsible for getting Vin's bronze earring plated in 'silver'?" and apparently that question was good enough to award me an RAFO card. :-) I will be framing it. Don't judge me. Who plated Vin's bronze earring in "silver"? When did they do it? Why? Is the plating on Vin's earring really silver (or just perceived to be Silver by the Scadrians)? ...is it the same metal as Nightblood's sheath? It seems to me that the silver plating on Vin's earring and Nightblood's famous "silver sheath" were essentially there to perform the same job. What do you think?
  11. 12 points
    Let me start by saying im not a new member to this forum, just been awhile since was on here, new phone etc and cant remember old log in details or even the email used. Just finished Oathbringer yesterday, had only started reading it on monday, had it for awhile but didnt have the time to read it. That said i will focus on the thread title now. I found this book to be underwhelming and a disapointment. Main reason being the book was mainly filler, (no doubt people will take exception to that point but nonetheless it is true.) There was little to none story progression, for 1233 page count book there was very little of the actual story told, mostly just filler material to bulk out the book. Character progression was non existant, some characters actually regressed imo, Kaladin. Best character in the books imo. Basically has become relegated to a side note. Shallan After WoR, expected alot more from her character, instead she had identity crisis the entire book. She is annoying at this point and most her povs were pointless and she just makes me cringe, Dalinar Flashback sequence was good, why he went to the nightwatcher was rather pathetic though. Also the dalinar we knew from previous books was a lie and find it hard to believe a spren nevermind the stormfather would bond to the man he was or that people ie kaladin and bridge 4 also Szeth would follow him knowing the truth. Szeth Swearing the 3rd ideal of the skybreakers to follow dalinar when he doesnt know him is also rather odd, found this part to not make a great deal of sense. Adolin I remember after WoR this forum was full of theories about what killing sadeas would do to him, most of ye will also recall this, turns out he just didnt care lol Renarin Useless as ever and bonded to the bad spren, but thats ok.........yeah..... Jasnah Seems altogether to powerful compared to the others, maybe its just her experience but wish was more pov chapters from her. Taravangian Having seen the diagram was wrong so much should of realised even at his smartest he was still woefully inadequete to predict future events and turned from the diagram instead latched on to small bits were right and joined odium Venli Seems to of bonded a normal spren just as a counterpoint to renarin bonding a odium spren in my opinion, eshonai bonding that spren would of made some sense venli bonding it made none. Shadesmer The trip here served no point but to take kaladin/shallan etc out the way for awhile, the chapters about it could be taken out the book and would make no difference Lifr Should be more chapters about lift, interesting character Moash His story unlike most the others did progress and found the direction he went to be refreshing (mirrored kaladins to an extent, difference being he accepted something kaladin refused to), and would of liked more povs from him. Bridge 4 Very lightly involved this time around, teft suddenly being a crack head was a bit weird, and out the blue, everyone suddenly being able to be a squire and proto radiant was also a bit strange imo, bridge 4 understandable, all the other random people joining in hopes of being a squire was bit much and rlain was underused and the little we got was left hanging, Voidbringers Was obvious the humans were the real voidbringers since book 1, found this revelation to be kinda silly and it being the reason for the recreance a bit of a cop out. I realise this isnt going to be a popular train of thought on this forum but it is my opinion, that the book we got wasnt what it should of been, best characters and stories pushed to the side, no real progression in story or character arcs, for the story we got the book could of been cut to a 3rd, as alot was filler material for shake of it, shallan dominated the book and was just a repetive stroy arc all through the book at that, kaladin basically a sidenote and support act, The way of kings was a 5/5 star book Word of radiance was a 4.5/5 book Oathbringer is 3/5 star book at best. I hope the series doesn't keep going on the downward spirial it seems to be going. I realise this (most likely) is all going to probably be cut to pieces by a lot of people, but before ye do that, ask yourself this, is oathbringer really the story ye thought it would be? Or the story ye wanted ? If ye say yes that it is, then id be shocked. If spelling mistakes i apologise, using my phone
  12. 12 points
    I have a different take on the fourth Ideal than the general consensus of this topic seems to be converging on. Here’s my version: “No one can be strong all the time. I will accept the protection of my allies when I cannot protect myself.” For that matter, here’s my take on the fifth Ideal while I’m at it: “I will lead my allies in the defense of _________.” Where “_________” is left up to the individual Windrunner to decide. Maybe it’s as restrictive as “my little brother Oroden”. Maybe it’s as broad as “Roshar” or even “the cosmere” for the really ambitious. But let’s get into reasons. (By the way, this is my first post; I don’t really…. do… forums usually, but Sanderson has enough books out with enough subtleties that it’s nearly impossible for one person to pick up on everything by themselves. So here we are with the exception to the rule. I mention this in the event that I violate some rule or etiquette without realizing it. My sincere apologies if so.) When trying to work out the fourth Ideal, I focused on different moments in the Stormlight Archive than other people seemed to. I considered the moment in Way of Kings where Kaladin nearly saw Bridge Four wiped out in a retaliatory strike after distracting the Parshendi with his bone-covered armor, only for Dalinar to save the day by deliberately cutting down the enemy archers. Or when Kaladin killed the Chasmfiend in Words of Radiance, but only managed to do so by borrowing Shallan’s shardblade and taking advantage of an assist from her illusions. Or during the climax of Oathbringer, where Kaladin and Shallan are out of stormlight and Adolin is injured, and the only reason all three of them didn’t die right then and there was another assist from Dalinar. In all of these scenes, Kaladin curses himself for not being able to protect those around him on his own. And that’s what I think the fourth Ideal really needs to address: the fact that, powerful as he is, Kaladin must accept he is just one man and cannot do everything by himself. He needs allies. More importantly, he needs to understand that sometimes HE is the one those allies will need to protect, and that he is just as deserving of that protection as everyone else. Syl even flat-out tells him this during the climax of Oathbringer (chapter 119) when she says, “Maybe you don’t have to save everyone Kaladin. Maybe it’s time for someone to save you.” In context that quote comes across as her merely reassuring Kaladin that everything will be okay, but I think it was actually more hidden-in-plain-sight foreshadowing from Sanderson. Keep in mind that this quote came immediately after Kaladin tried to say the fourth Ideal so he could claim more power and save his allies. If my suspicion about what the forth ideal entails is correct, this would neatly explain his failure to do so. His intentions at the time were in direct conflict with the oath he had to swear. Notice as well that the wording of this oath is specific. “I will accept the protection of my allies.” Not, “I will leave others to die.” Not, “I will throw innocents into harm to better save my own skin.” No, the protection has to be just as freely offered as Kaladin’s protection of others, and from allies who are therefore presumably capable of offering that protection. A child could not rightly be considered an ally in a war, so there’s no worry about a conflict of oaths if Kaladin refuses to let a five year old fight his battles for him either. Finally, I see this oath as a stepping-stone in the Windrunner’s oaths moving from protection to leadership, since those are the attributes they are supposed to be representing. The progression of oaths would therefore be: Second: declaration to protect others. Third: refinement of the previous oath. The Windrunner will protect for selfless reasons. Fourth: the Windrunner will work in a group to better protect people from dangers no one person can handle on their own. Furthermore, the Windrunner must accept that this means that those allies may be ones getting hurt in defense of the Windrunner rather than the other way around (as a Windrunner would naturally prefer; this is the part giving Kaladin issues right now). Fifth: refinement of the previous oath. The Windrunner assumes leadership of his or her allies in the defense of some favored group or individual. So what do other readers think? Personally, I believe this is a much more positive oath than vowing to accept that some people can’t be saved (which seems to violate Life before Death to my mind) or that it may be necessary to murder innocents for the greater good (which seems to violate Journey before Destination), while solving many of the same moral issues.
  13. 11 points
    I just received my Well of Ascension Dragonsteel edition so I thought I'd share my Q &A. I was trying to leave as little wiggle room as I could, but I couldn't be as specific as I wanted due to the constraints on numbers of characters. But, it's still an answer : Q: "Can Stormlight give enough extra strength that a humanoid could use a Shardbow w/out Plate? A: "Not normally" This was basically me trying to hammer down what was going on with Rock and the Shardbow. There was a good conversation a while back about Rock and the Shardbow that can be found here:The Future for Rock. Don't want to type out all my thoughts again, so I'll just paste what I was saying then: So, if Stormlight doesn't vastly improve strength then I think Rock being able to shoot it accurately, twice, can only be explained by so many things: 1. Rock is not just strong, or unnaturally strong; he is the strongest man on Roshar. I find this hard to believe. 2. Rock is aided by something or someone unknown and unseen. Now, I think it has to be #2 but what is he aided by? I don't think he's bonded an honorspren, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is(and has been since we've seen him) already bonded to an unknown spren. But I actually think it is less of a 'traditional' bond but more of a symbiotic relationship that Horneaters have with spren, a la' greatshells, Ryshadiums, and the like that grants extra strength and other abilities. Maybe it's all Horneaters, or maybe Rock's bloodline makes him extra special(I'm inclined to the latter) but I think Rock has a deeper relationship with spren, then he wants to admit. Not because he's unnaturally secretive, but because if true, it's likely one of the great secrets of Horneaters..You know? The one you don't tell anyone. Ever. I think spren-symbiosis could go a long way towards explaining the weird 'spren-things' around Rock. And Rock is certainly a man of secrets: I think the lies he has been telling them, is everything he's ever told them about spren and his abilities with them. I can't wait to my next reread so I can go through Rock's parts, looking for lies So anyways, Brandon's answer isn't exactly a definitive one since there's a ton of wiggle room in "Not Normally",..But by using the powers of confirmation-bias I'm going to claim it as a point in my favor!
  14. 11 points
    Dealing with the crisis at Hearthstone mostly turns back into Brandon subverting the idea of the Voidbringers being rampaging monsters, which was basically already subverted in WoR. Personally, seeing Kaladin meeting his family, Laral and Roshone was more satisfying than anything else. Shallan did interact more with the Ghostbloods. We didn't learn too much more about them, but Brandon's playing the long game with them. Can't blame him for not giving up the game immediately. Jasnah did get information, but she mostly kept it to herself. What she did get has already come in handy, as seen in the last part of the book. She may even have some more nuggets tucked away. Again, your problem seems to be that Brandon has not given away the game in one book. This is a ten book epic. Everything can't be revealed at once. Adolin killing Sadeas directly led into House Sadeas' defection to Odium though. As for personal consequences to Adolin, it eroded his father's view of who he thought, or rather wanted Adolin to be. Moash joined odium instead, which makes him more significant. In fact, seeing as the Diagramists are, at least for now, Odium's side, he did end up joining them, in a way. One of the problems of reading a long running series like this are that people get entirely too comfortable with what they want to happen and mix it up with what the author foreshadows, or they end up being far too invested in their theories and aren't able to fully accept what the author actually writes.
  15. 11 points
    This is mainly in response to The One Who Connect's reply about there being more than nine desolations, and could solve the mysteries about sapience, etc.... What I'll posit here is that there were more than nine desolations, and this is directly related to the multiple sections of each unmade's name and their sentience. It is known that: 1. There were more than 9 desolations. 2. There are 9 unmade. 3. There are 10 heralds that were tortured in the interim between each desolation. OP posits that: 1. Each breaking corresponded to a new unmade ( there's a slight problem with this, due to point 1 in the above section) 2. Each unmade corresponds to one herald, except for Taln, but that's because Taln is the man and never broke until now (Which raises the idea that there should be a new unmade now, but I'll get to that) This theory, while not currently backed up with too much solid evidence, could still work. What I'll suggest is that each new breaking of a previously broken herald gave the corresponding unmade a new "piece" of them, adding to their sentience level and the number of name-sections of that unmade (Under this logic, Ishar was the weakest-minded of the heralds and broke thrice, hence the unmade "Ba-Ado-Mishram" corresponding to him.) We can use this to calculate what is possibly the actual number of desolations that there were. Using the herald-unmade connections provided by Rainier (His reasons for these connections being provided in his reply): Ishar corresponds to Ba-Ado-Mishram. He was the weakest and broke thrice, instigating three desolations and giving an unmade a level 3 sentience. Vedel corresponds to Re-Shephir. She broke twice, started two desolations and gave Odium two units of sentience to make a level 2 unmade. Shalash corresponds to Sja-anat. Broke twice, kickstarted two apocalypses, creating a level 2 sentient unmade. Battar corresponds to Dai-gonarthis (Or an unknown unmade, but we're just going with it). Broke 2 times, started two desolations, gave away 2 units of sentience. Kalak corresponds to Yelig-nar. A "willshaper"'s will broke twice and he made a level two unmade, starting two desolations. Jezrien corresponds to Nergaoul. Credit where credit is due, the Herald King broke only once, giving an unmade a level 1 sentience and starting only one desolation. Nale corresponds to Ashertmarnn. THE LAW broke once, starting one desolation, and giving a level 1 sentience to an unmade. Chanarach corresponds to Chemoarish. One breaking, one desolation, and a level 1 sentience unmade. Pailiah corresponds to Moelach. Again, one breaking, one desolation, and a new level 1 unmade for Odium to play with.SThe Last, but by no means least, Taln the Man. He broke only after 4500 years of torture, and under my theory, created a new mystery unmade (Which I like to think is the Everstorm itself) According to the statistics provided, there would have been 15 desolations, excluding the Final Desolation. TL;DR: I'm doing whatever I can to save this theory and coming up with unconfirmed statistics. Feel free to tear my reply to shreds.
  16. 10 points
    Hey everyone! After some much needed distance from the books and world of Roshar, I am diving back in from the very beginning and reading through to the end of Oathbringer. Unlike the 7 or 8 times I’ve read the first two books, where I did so for the pure pleasure of it, this time I am rereading with a specific purpose in mind: an in-depth analysis of one of the most confusing and unreliable characters in Stormlight, also known as Shallan Davar. Before I get started, I want to thank those of you who have welcomed me onto the Shard and liked my posts up until now. I have really come to enjoy the Shard, and it's nice to talk about the Cosmere with those who care about it as much as, or more, than I do. Special thanks go to @SLNC, who frequently is able to phrase things I am trying to say in a more concise and direct way, especially when my posts are nearly half a page (on here) long. I'd also like to thank @Fifth of Daybreak, who helped me immensely in developing my "forum voice" and was willing to carry on a rather lengthy debate and call me out when I was getting too heated, without ever making me feel like my thoughts were insignificant. @maxal has also frequently been a rational and contrary voice that explains the opposite side of the fence from me in coherent and well-thought out replies, which is crucial in any effective discussion. Let me preface this analysis by saying that this is a project I have wanted to tackle for a long time. Originally, I intended to do this as a set-up for Oathbringer, but with the birth of my second daughter and complications after, I ran out of time. Then, I planned on doing this immediately after my first read-through of Oathbringer, but other things in life and my own mental state after reading the book forced it to be put on hold until I could be at a place where I could approach this from a more neutral ground. As a little bit of background, when I first read through The Way of Kings, I fell in love with the character of Shallan almost instantly. As an artist myself who has often lived on the side of the fence where I never seem to fit in, no matter how I changed myself or what I did, she resonated with me and spoke to me in a way that almost no other character in any fiction has ever done. Her sense of humor is right up my alley, and having been raised in a somewhat sheltered environment, I see a lot of myself in this character, and the more I read The Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, the more I grew fascinated with her story and how she came to be. Then I read Oathbringer, and her story was hard for me to read, but not because it was tedious or boring, but rather because in a small way, it mirrored something I went through in high school. I love the character--in fact, I believe I actually love her more now than before--but with the chaotic mess that was Shallan in Oathbringer, I believe this is now the right time for this analysis to occur. In some part, this analysis was inspired by @maxal, whose analysis of Adolin pre-Oathbringer was one of the motivating factors in my joining the Shard in the first place. I’ve also observed, as I’ve seen many people comment on the character, that a large majority of readers have a difficult time liking or understanding the character, and some skip her chapters entirely. As Shallan is by far my most favorite character in the entire Cosmere, my hope is that through this analysis I can bring some of what I find intriguing and fun about this character to everyone else. The inconsistency and unreliability of the narrator are only part of the fun. As I progress through this read-through, I will be making a bunch of notes privately, that will probably be completely incomprehensible to anyone else. If you really want to see them, ask and I will post them; however, I will revise those notes into a coherent document that will be updated as I read. During my analysis, I will focus on a few things about the character. Yes, there will be a little bit of analysis of the shipping involved (be warned), but I will strive my hardest to approach it from a neutral ground and point out the good and the bad, as I see it, on both sides. Other aspects of Shallan’s character that I will focus on and try to analyze and explain are: How her past (as it is mentioned in the text) has influenced the narrator we’re reading. Modern influences on the character of Shallan and how that affects the narrator we're reading. Mental jiggery-pokery, or in other words, her mental side-stepping habits, and the immediate and long-lasting ramifications of it. Contradictions in the narrator’s voice, and why those contradictions are occurring. Comparisons between Shallan and Kaladin, with respects to interests, mannerisms, interactions, and mental states Comparisons between Shallan and Adolin, with respects to interests, mannerisms, interactions, and mental states I should note that comparisons between Shallan and the two boys will occur primarily from Shallan's standing. My reasons for the view I have comes entirely from the standpoint of Shallan as a character, not from whether or not I think Kaladin is a better match or Adolin is. As I said, I will try hard to be impartial in my analysis here, and will try to stay away from my opinions on Kaladin or Adolin, generally. SIDE NOTE: I like both of them and I like both of them for her, and for different reasons. I just happen to think one is better than the other, but that is neither here nor there. Comparisons between Shallan and Wayne (from Mistborn Era 2) There are some similarities between what Wayne and Shallan do, and also some stark differences on how those actions affect their mental states. And I’m sure there are other topics that will come up as I read. If there’s something about the character that you feel I haven’t mentioned that you would like included in the analysis, please let me know and I will do my best to incorporate it. If you have thoughts on something I've written, tell me. Discussion is encouraged--I merely am hoping that this will help to make Shallan a more enjoyable character for everyone. One thing I do ask, however, is to stay away from flippant and antagonistic comments--to disagree with me is okay, and it doesn't matter to me if we never agree. On that note…here we go. Let's start The Way of Kings again. Chapter 3 - City of Bells: Chapter 3 Analysis.docx
  17. 10 points
  18. 10 points
    I get what you're saying though I largely disagree. I just want to mention one thing. Mental health is rarely a linear progression. There are a lot of false starts, regressions, tangential struggles, and so forth. There are often plateaus and setbacks, even when you generally manage to progress. Expecting characters to always make substantial improvements and stay there is unrealistic, and Brandon does too much research to be able to do that. Also, it wasn't humans are voidbringers. Read the passage again. It ws the real and distinct fear, promised by their god, that they would destroy Roshar, as they did Ashyn. Not liking the reason is fine, but make sure you get the reason right
  19. 9 points
    Here's the deal that I've seen with every complaint about OB, and you said it in your first post. The problem isn't the story itself, which if you don't like for what it is fine. The problem is expectation. Kaladin isn't the main character, he's one of a cast. The main complaint is his reduced arc though. Which I find odd, as the build up of the Parsh as people instead of cartoon villains, and his wanting to defend them leading up to his failures was a beautiful arc. In the back 5, he's going to be a more minor character like Jasnah, so this is something people need to get used to. For Shallan, I'm not sure what people expected, but swearing an oath doesn't mean you have to get better. We have Savants as one way in which we've seen progression does not equal progress. Even the the back of the book mentions that the bond can widen the cracks in the soul. For Adolin this is the major thing. The community built up the repercussions of Sadeas' death into a major story, but Adolin has never been a major PoV character. He's always been there to supplement the others, and the storyline made perfect sense. Sadeas death sparked the Midnight Essence, which confused the issue, and then Adolin was placed at the head of the investigation ensuring it went no where. The political strife of nothing being done made the ending with the Sadeas army possible. Fr Adolin personally, he worked himself constantly to avoid thinking about it, and in the end decided he was sorry. It all made perfect sense but it wasn't the story people expected. The complaints I've seen, both here and from others, are a result of wanting the story to progress one way, and creating their own disappointment. My only issues with OB are some pacing problems. It's not Brandon's greatest ever, but the characters progress naturally other than Moash's abrupt 180. Droo the expectations before you start reading and it's a pretty good book. Go in thinking it's a different story than your getting...
  20. 7 points
    Now, I know this really isn't true, but just pretend it is for a minute and let's see how far we can take it. I was just making a list of the ten types of pancakes in Yeddaw for someone, when I realized something suspicious about them pancakes. There are 9 physical pancakes and 1 imaginary/spiritual pancake. Now, these here numbers sound just a bit familiar. Yes, indeed, it is now quite obvious that these pancakes are a representation of Odium and his 9 Unmade! In Oathbringer we learn a lot about the nine Unmade, powerful spren of Odium. Perhaps I can explain it through this overly complex and detailed chart which only the wisest of the wise and discerningfulest of the discerningfuls will be able to understand: 1 imaginary pancake - Odium* 9 other pancakes - 9 Unmade* *Storms, just look at the complexity! It all becomes clear now, the universe explained through pancakes! But I am sure there is still much to learn and discover, which is why I ask for you, fellow sharders, to help me in the quest for evidence and information to support this theory. Perhaps you could help ascribe certain pancakes to certain Unmade, or find other things which support this theory. I have a list of pancakes here: I dunno what we can find, but I can assure you that this will become the strongest theory to ever pervade the Shard!
  21. 7 points
  22. 7 points
    Traditionally, it's promoting the idea of two characters having a romantic relationship and explaining why you love the idea of them together. Here, anything which discusses a romantic relationship is considered shipping, as some people seem to think Brandon plots and foreshadows every aspect of his books besides romantic relationships
  23. 7 points
    Here are all of my Stormlight parodies (all of these can be found in the Cosmere! The Musical thread, and some of them are found later in this thread. I update this post every time I have a new parody.): My Awesomeness (to the tune of Sound of Silence): Truthless (to the tune of Blackbird by the Beatles) The Bridgeman (to the tune of "The Boxer" by Simon and Garfunkel) "Empty Vests and Empty Sandals" (to the tune of "Empty Chairs and Empty Tables") Carry On My Wayward Son sung as a duet between Odium and Dalinar with literally 0 changes "Bridge Down" (performed by Kaladin, Gaz, and The Bridgemen) I know we already have a parody of "Stars" but: "Highspren" (To the tune of "Stars") The Ashspren National Anthem (another one with zero changes): "You'll Be Back" (Sung by Odium, to the tune of the song with the same title from Hamilton) "City in the Clouds" (To the tune of "Castle on a Cloud" from Les Mis) Szeth's Suicide (to the Tune of Javert's Suicide from Les Miserables) "Fire and Rain" (as sung by Dalinar) To the tune of the song with the same title by James Taylor "Defying Gravity" (as sung by Moash and Kaladin at the climax of WoR to the tune of the song with the same name from Wicked) "Thrill's in the Battle" as sung by Dalinar to the tune of "Cat's in the Cradle" by Harry Chapin "Highstorm" (As sung by Kaladin to the tune of "Hurricane" from Hamilton): "Killer Queen" (to the tune of the song with the same name by Queen)
  24. 7 points
    So much agreed here. Dalinar was absolutely awesome when he denied Odium. Free will > evil gods. I think he's gonna be a Radiant, actually. Just not yet, though. Sure want to see how this is going to develop in the future!
  25. 6 points
    Admittedly, I'm coming into this discussion late, but I'd like to make some observations here: First, @IronBars, if you want to perpetuate a discussion, you need to tone down your arguments, bud. Reading through all three pages, I get the repeated consistency that you're either A) getting too heated in this debate, or B ), you're not rereading your replies before posting them because you're coming off quite abrasive and antagonistic. Good discussion is perpetuated when both sides are willing to discuss what they have read, which I have seen several people attempt to do on here. You, however, are not encouraging a discussion--you do, however, appear to be perpetuating an argument where you're not willing to budge unless everyone else deigns to acknowledge how right you are, which most people appear to not be. I, and many others I'm sure, don't mind discussing the particulars of OB with you--however, in order for that to occur, you have to get off your high horse and actually read between the lines of what others are saying, and not simply react off the cuff to whatever you disagree with. Acknowledging someone else's arguments, even if you disagree, goes a long way to perpetuating an open forum. Second, punctuation and spelling. This is largely one of the reasons your arguments are coming across as off the cuff, rather than carefully considered. Lack of proofreading makes it difficult to read your words without frustration. Third, while I understand you're disappointed by Oathbringer, I found most of your points to be the opposite in actuality. However, judging from the way you write and the complaints you raise, I'm assuming you prefer overt developments rather than subtle. I'm also assuming you prefer conflicts to occur through big moments, rather than small developments here and there, and I imagine you probably disliked The Well of Ascension because it dragged on for you. If I'm wrong, I would love for you to enlighten me on how exactly, because as I see it, Oathbringer was a phenomenal book for plot and character development. While I agree that the character arcs were largely shunted aside in favor of the overall plot, as @Calderis and @maxal noted, to say that no character development occurred at all in OB is to basically say you either didn't comprehend the development, or you were frustrated by the lack of progress that occurred. Overall, there was a lot of development for Kaladin, Dalinar, and Shallan. That has been noted repeatedly on here. The development was not generally forward (progress) for Kaladin or Shallan, but that does not mean that they did not change. Fourth, I've noted this elsewhere but I'll say it again here: Lightweavers do not swear ideals beyond the first. Unlike Kaladin, who literally binds himself to an ideal (i.e. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves), Shallan binds herself to an aspect of self-awareness. We call these Truths, but they do not operate the same way that ideals do--Shallan can't "mean" her Truth before she makes it because it is an ongoing process of self awareness. Finally, I would do as @RShara recommended above: I do this routinely, and it helps me to see things develop. Brandon writes foreshadowing all over the place--but he also writes in an avalanche style. His books start off slow, then build, and build, and build, until they're racing down the plot mountainside and reach "the big moment" near the end, and being able to see these things happening with a fresh eye helps me enjoy them a tremendous amount more.
  26. 6 points
    Something that could just as easily be said to you with regards to the Stormlight Archives. You have all of these complaints, yet you also seemed to have missed a lot of the little bits in the earlier books.
  27. 6 points
    My five cents: Oathbringer is and isn´t a disappointment. SA is such a huge series, with a lot going on. Some parts are bound to disappoint some fans. Its unavoidable (is unavoidable a word btw?). Personally, I wasn´t really happy with how Amaram was handled. I would have liked to see more Ghootsbloods (specifically Mraize). I hoped to get to know Aesudan. I would have liked for Axies to show up. Graves was killed far too quickly. Adolins arc wasn´t entirely satisfactory. I was more bothered by Lift than I have ever been before. The explanation for the Recreance felt weak. But at the same time, I am very pleased with a lot of stuff in the book. It was incredibly entertaining, from start to finish. Szeth was better than in the previous two. The entire sequence in the Kholinar Palace was great. Killing Elhokar, Eshonai and Jezrien were good decisions. Dalinars arc was beautiful, and does touch me on a personal level. Kaladins arc was great too. I loved the lore we got. Parts of the final battle in Thaylenah were awesome. It was funny. The Unmade are nice. Odium was great as a character. Will we always be pleased with what Brandon does with the Stormlight Archive? No. Will some fans stop following the series because it moves in a direction they don´t like. Yes, most likely. In the end, it depends on what you care about, as a fan. Was Oathbringer a disappointment? Dunno. There is no right, and no wrong. (off-topic, but I have to know: @Ammanas, is that Warcraft Greymane in your sig, or another Greymane?)
  28. 6 points
    Yeah. This conversation isn't going to go anywhere. I couldn't stand Shallan in tWoK, she grew on me in WoR, and she developed into an amazing character in OB. If you honestly think that she hasn't changed or developed at all, then your requirements for "character development" are very very different than mine. Same with Dalinar. He says himself that his personality over the recent years has been based on a lie, and has to fight to reconcile who he is with who he's become and it almost breaks him. That's the entire point of his arc, and what allows him to speak his third oath. He faced his past, and still chose to be a good man. What is your definition of character development? because I don't understand how you can say it's not present here.
  29. 6 points
    Era 1 is technically over. Yes. I know it seems a small thing to have noticed. But Brandon still has plenty to explain from Era 1 and plenty of ways he could go about doing so... as we've seen with Secret History and the clues uncovered about Era 1 during Era 2 and specifically at the end of Bands of Mourning. We still have another book from Era 2 and, moreover, Era 3 from the Scadrians. So far, the more obscure events of Era 1 have continued to be relevant whenever BS write from Scadrial. To me, this is less about the just earring itself... but moreso, this is about the mysteries of Silver, its properties within the Cosmere, and (most importantly) who would be knowledgeable of such things. Firstly, from just Scadrial... and secondly, possibly throughout the cosmere. This is part of my larger investigation into Silver in the Cosmere. Figuring out whoever did this could be a major clue. I asked Brandon more specifics about Silver during the AU release and I got a very curious answer in response. I asked "Nightblood's sheath and Silence's dagger are silver... Does silver have more secrets to reveal to us? Does it have some Cosmere-sized significance?" He said "Nightblood's sheath is indeed of cosmere-sized significance... but it may not be actual silver." Interesting wording, don't you think? I am wanting to know everything I can about so-called "silver," so-called "aluminum," and especially the people in the Cosmere who seem to know more than others about their/its properties. What metal is Nightblood's sheath made of?
  30. 5 points
    Nightblood, Others,
  31. 5 points
    I actually found Adolin's arc extremely satisfying. He knows he's not a major player, and yet strives to do his best within the role he's been given. And then actually beginning to form a bond with his shardblade.. learning her name.. it's obvious that he will one day return her to life and become a radiant (I assume edgedancer by her physical appearance in shadesmar). I was hoping we'd see a bit more from Shallan's proto-squires.. I was looking forward to Gaz growing his eye back.. alas, next book.
  32. 5 points
    Here's another one for your humble enjoyment. Szeth's New Knife (Sung to the tune of Mack the Knife from The Three Penny Opera) Oh the Sword has an aluminum sheath, dear Just to keep it, from leakin' Night That's a bald shin Szeth Son-Naturo, Yeah its you know, the Assassin in White. When the sword fights without his sheath, dear Midnight billows start to spread, lots of Stormlight needs shin Szeth, dear So he doesn't wind up dead In the Purelake, some poor crim'nal Lies in the water losing life Szeth the detective talks to sword Nimi "Why did that Reshi have a knife?" In a prison stinking awfully, Only one guard is found dead "Shouldn't you be Destroyin' Evil?" His sword Nimi, says in his head. Then shin Szeth finds the beefy Noble, who's been skimmin' off the cash. And then Nightblood destroys that evil, Did our Shin do something Rash? Here come Listeners, and Ner-agoul, that's Yelignar, and Odium Oh the chances look mighty slim, dear Glad sword Nimi's back in town
  33. 4 points
    It didnt sound harsh, but how it comes across is you shift your arguement, first your arguement was he never said that about SA, it was the cosmere and tried imply i thought random things from other of his works would happen. Then shifted to how it is a complete stand alone volume. I dont mean this in an offensive way so dont take it that way, and im sorry if anyone takes it badly but i don't know another wording of this to use - but you seem like the biggest fanboy ever. Every post in this thread iv seen from you is jusfifying why sanderson was right to do this or that and you don't seem to have any arguments against what i or others say besides justfying what actually was in OB. At least thats the impression i get. Again apologies if it gives offence its probably poor wording on my part but its how it at lesst seems to be. Again sorry. @Vissy i said at the very start OB was an ok book, just not good/great, to me personally it just has alot of shortcomings,
  34. 4 points
    Birds sure were having a party at BYU today. Happy birds = happy Sunbird. Cedar Waxwings (4 photos): Black-capped Chickadee, Spotted Towhee, and Lesser Goldfinch (3 photos): Robins (2 photos):
  35. 4 points
    I have to say: How exactly did Brandon Sanderson promise anything? How is he breaking a promise? How did he keep a promise before? A promise is something an author makes outside the text of his book. If there's a WoB somewhere that says all those things will happen, I'd like to see it. Foreshadowing, however, is a technique that authors use inside works of fiction. Here Brandon foreshadowed some things, but others may have just been the result of a forum full of crazy obsessed people that have 3 years between books to analyze every word in a set of enormous books in order to predict future events....(hmm, wait a minute, side note: we are VOIDBRINGERS). I personally think it's awesome when Brandon plays with our expectations by hinting at something to come, then in fact taking things the other way. As someone pointed out above, the visit to Hearthstone very likely was written in that way to cause the reader to feel the same way Kaladin did. His surprise was our surprise. Why, exactly, is that a promise broken? Why would we want everything that is foreshadowed to become a checklist to tick off in the next volume? Wouldn't that make life kinda boring?
  36. 4 points
    That's 100% our own faults. We, like Kaladin, assumed there'd be a crisis because we assumed we knew things about the Voidbringers. The Hearthstone bit was done that way on purpose, to start us on the path of "maybe we're wrong about them," and facilitate Kaladin's internal moral conflict for the future. The non-radiant population seems to have trouble navigating Urithiru. The Radiant population(minus Jasnah) aren't the most scientific bunch. There's also the end of the world to be dividing their efforts. In the face of these, a lack of extreme progress is understandable. I'd say the discoveries of the giant Fabrial and the gemstone library are a good start on the mystical side, and the plumbing/air currents are a good start on the more mundane side(though it'd be good if they learned the secret to agriculture). The problem with the Recreance explanation is that it's become abundantly clear that there was no singular cause to the Recreance. Any singular scene revealing Recreance info is gonna come off as an unsatisfactory explanation to use because it's only one piece of the puzzle. The internal conflict of who to defend, the "Voidbringer" revelation, shattering the plains, creating the Parshmen, the "we won" declaration, etc... until a character puts all the various pieces together in-world, we've got to do it ourselves. We've gotten theory-crazy around here: we want to work for our answers, rather than getting them on a silver platter, and it seems like Brandon has noticed this. I'm sure it'll be spelled out in book 4 or 5 for the more casual readers, but I think that Brandon is giving us a puzzle, and is letting us solve it instead of just spelling it out for us(for now). A lot of things that were "supposed to happen" got interrupted by the arrival of the Fused. Remember those supply caravans that never arrived during one of Kaladin's chapters with the Parshmen? These aren't broken promises, it's just the way life goes.
  37. 4 points
    @The One Who Connects I have been getting some work done (sad I know), but during my down time I have been putting quite a bit of thought into this. Examining the prima facie evidence, we know that onscreen conjoined fabrials have only been used when the fabrial that is being manipulated by the conjoined fabrial that is being actively moved is at rest (spanreeds are set in specific predetermined spots, the archery platform was stationary before the conjoined platform was lowered). This means that the effects of engaging a conjoined fabrial while in motion have not been shown, and as such are pure conjecture. Furthermore, and even more telling (as in telling the death knell for this far fetched and impractical means to make flying airships work) the chapter where conjoined fabrials are fist discussed in WoR is called "The Multiplied Strain of Simultaneous infusion". In that chapter Navanni explains to Adolin and Rushu that the things that they are having the most trouble with for these reversers working to raise the archery platforms are that the distance between conjoined fabrials and the weight of conjoined systems both increase the likelihood that the reverser fabrial gemstones will crack under the strain. But in thinking about this more, I think this was never an idea that would have worked. In examining the scene in chapter 35 of WoR where Navani is testing out raising the archery platform, it is clear that there is a magical effect that is at play. The ardents engage the fabrial of the raised wooden square platform, then remove the wooden supports for the raised square and it hangs in space ostensibly unsupported in it's current position. This implies that conjoining a system sets a baseline frame of reference, where the conjoined object at rest becomes the baseline for this conjoined framework. After the ardents lower the engaged suspended platform down to the ground and the previously at rest conjoined fabrial + archery platform rises into the air in equal measure to the lowered square platform, they tie the lowered platform down. This implies that the conjoined system would return to its initial state, with the engaged fabrial trying to reach the baseline height before it was actively lowered and the raised platform would try to return to its previous position at rest on the ground. I believe that this is pretty clear evidence that the magical effect of the conjoined fabrial lies in the creation of a baseline shared frame of reference at the time that the conjoining fabrial is engaged. Furthermore, I think that this is not an absolute frame of reference but a relative frame of reference that probably takes into account the intent of the person that engages the conjoining mechanism. This point becomes more obvious when you look at the practical ramifications of using conjoined spanreeds to communicate between the shattered plains and Tashikk. Based on this amazing map or Roshar, which was approved by Peter, the longitudinal separation between the shattered plains and Tashikk is ~110 degrees of longitude. Here is a view of the map with approximate orthogonal normals shown in black, showing the relative directions of up based on the relative position of both spanreeds. Looking at the map it becomes fairly obvious that some relative (and possibly cognitively reinforced) frame of reference needs to be established at the moment of conjoining to make sure that something as precise as the re-dipping of the spanreed quill into the spanreed system inkpot can happen. If the framework was an absolute framework then the spanreed when lifted up would be lifted in relation to the surface normal of it's relative position, and if this was translated as absolute movement to the conjoined spanreed it would be essentially lifted at angle nearly orthogonal to the direction that is up in relation to it's relative frame of reference (essentially it would be moving to the right instead of up). Here is another map of Roshar, with the plane that is orthogonal to the relative position of the spanreed at the shattered plains that should clarify what I am talking about: So based on this analysis, I think that we can safely say that conjoined fabrials have the following base characteristics: At the time that they are actively conjoined, each fabrial has a relative frame of reference that is linked to the relative frame of reference of it's conjoined pair fabrial, and that movement of one conjoined fabrial is translated into relative movement for the other fabrial in its own relative frame of reference. A baseline state of equilibrium is established between the two conjoined fabrials at the time that the fabrials are actively conjoined. This is the rest state. Each part of the coinjoined system, if no external force were applied, would return to this base state. I think we have primary evidence for this in the form of the archery platform (in that the portion lowered needs to be tied down in order to have it maintain it's position), but it would be interesting to know if the conjoined spanreeds have a force that is attempting to re-position them into their initial base rest state. These are small, relatively light pens, so the force attempting to reinstate them in their initial equilibrium rest position would also be somewhat negligible, but the farther away in any of the 3 axes you get from the rest position, the greater the resultant force to return to the rest position should be (this should be noticeable as a tension, kind of like an elastic string, tying the spanreed to the position where it was first engaged). This is a magical property, and possibly the frame of reference for each conjoined fabrial is imparted by the user that engages the fabrial. This would be a further proof of the quantum nature of fabrials (and spren in general) that the observer sets the functional parameters. This is the great causal I of the quantum system. The determinant nature of the frame of reference of the system is based on the perceived frame of reference of the user. I don't recall any references in the SLA of spanreeds being used in conjunction with compasses, so I am assuming that the cognitive interpretation of the spanreed user establishes the relative frame of reference. Up is towards the top of the spanreed board, right is to the right of the spanreed board, etc. This is the most flexible way to use this technology, and also it's probably part of the underlying magic that these considerations and translations of position are done automatically. But the root cause of these translations probably has to do with the perception of the user. So based on the above, I have to say, the idea of using a system of weights and counterweights dangling from Urithiru to provide vertical ascent/descent to flying airships is ridiculous and completely untenable. Till next time @The One Who Connects, when we see what topic unleashes an unholy war of ideas that can only be settled by the surgical use of WoBs and the clarifying use of diagrams. As always this has been diverting and edifying.
  38. 4 points
    A lot of people have said something close to what I was thinking. "I cannot save everyone, but I will save those I can". "I will not let those I can't save prevent me from saving those I can" was what I was thinking "I will let learn to let go of those whom I cannot or could not save." Those are all around what I was thinking. Something about growing callouses, like his father always told him to, but Kaladin was never able to. He knows, and has known for a long time, that he needs to learn to move past those he can't save and not let that hold him back, but has always had an incredibly difficult time doing so. It's the one thing he's still unable to accept and swear.
  39. 4 points
    Not-so-subtle dig. I'm all over the A/S/K thread but don't call me a shipper. The clues are either there and mean something or they aren't and they don't. It's either foreshadowing or not, and that has very little to do with me wanting one thing or another. Frankly I think that shipping is a slur used to diminish people who talk about it, as if we can talk about magical theories but not personal ones.
  40. 4 points
    Sel would create a very beautiful and by far the fastest ship - which would run out of investiture shortly after the starting line. Curse that geography limited magic! Nalthis would look promising initially, but due to having a dodgy awakening of the sail command - "Fly me" - end up contorting its pilot into the shape of an insect and subsequently buzz around annoying the spectators. Roshar would be fast and powerful, but inefficient, being designed for a highly invested world. They look like they're going to win, but, Scadrial, though slow and plodding for the most part due to the limited access to investiture wins, because Kelsier refuses to let anyone else win. Not death nor gods nor fate will prevent him winning. Kelsier throws one of those control box grenade things for the Scadrial ships at the Rosharan ship, sucking the investiture from it and disabling it, and Scadrial many hours later plods over the finishing line first. Sixth of Dusk observes the whole episode and wonders why these people think they are Aviar.
  41. 3 points
    My point wasnt the fanboy thing, it was the fact all he does it cut under peoples opinions by justifying the choices of the author, which isnt actually a valid point against anyone who says something not in praise of OB thats just my opinion though. I did apologise several times so my intent wasnt to cause an arguement or any such I do enjoy most of brandons books by the way, just some act like he is infallible and just defend what happened within OB rather then have there own actual opinion.
  42. 3 points
    @IronBars because, as I thought was abundantly clear by this point, I liked the book and think it does stand on its own. I can absolutely dispute that, because it's an opinion, not a fact. Edit: I didn't mean that to sound as harsh as it did, but I mean...you can't tell me that it's impossible to dispute something that is based on a subjective outcome. The fact that we feel differently makes either of our opinions just that.
  43. 3 points
    I think this is a great post which summarizes greatly how many readers reacted to this book. Truth is Oathbringer isn't making unanimity and critics are more numerous for this book than with the previous ones. My personal take are, with OB, Brandon focused way too much onto the greater narrative, ignoring the smaller characters oriented arc, but at the same time, he spent way too much time over given arcs to the point of making the repetitive. Did I like Shallan in this book? Nope. Not really. Not because she didn't get character development, the idea Shallan didn't get character development is surprising because of all characters, she definitely got the most, but because her overall arc dragged and extended its welcome. I do not mind characters going down regression paths, but I felt Shallan's regression should have ended with the Hoid chapters, it shouldn't have further slipped. It also over-powered part of the narrative by being horribly irritating as we were forced to read Veil most of the time. Now, I can't speak for everyone, but I literally hate Veil. She is a fake character, with a fake past and fake skills set: hearing her being spoken so highly out of her falseness was terribly grating. Those parts of the story could have used some spicing up: we had four characters evolving within the same narrative, but they barely talked one to another. Shallan's arc was thus way too internal for my personal taste, not external enough and it being combined to Dalinar and Kaladin's also very internal arc made the story feel sluggish. As such, I do think by choosing to have his three main protagonist enter what ended being very similar arcs wasn't the right narrative move. It also yielded bland simplistic and comical-relief Adolin because Brandon needed contrast. Did I like Adolin in this book? Nope. Talk about a disappointment. There isn't a day where I do not attempt to try to make it sound more satisfying but, in the end, Sadeas being murdered just turned into the most unsatisfying resolution of a book ending climax I have ever read. I never thought I would get to read this level of dissatisfaction coming from Brandon Sanderson and yet it happened. Of all authors I have ever read, he was the one I counted on for pulling out a climax and not to disappoint, yet this time around, he did. Four months after the book, I still do not understand why he thought this was the right narrative to play with, why he didn't add more Adolin viewpoints to make the arc feel more satisfying. I just cannot understand. Did I like Amaram? Nope. He had been built-up to become an interesting villain, not a card-board black character but one with motivations and beliefs which contradicted with his own personal sense of honor. The potential for conflict was gigantic and yet he was turned into nothing more than a mindless minion. His transformation is not brought upon clearly enough and it feels as if the author just wanted to be done with him. Did I think we needed Lift in this book? Nope. After her novel, I didn't feel like she needed more viewpoints: they distracted me from the ending climax. I had built-up a strong liking and empathy towards her character after reading Edgedancer, I didn't feel OB built on that, worst, I felt it hack through it. I no longer want wise-chull-cracking out-of-context Lift, I want caring deeper thinking Lift, but maybe that's just me. This being said, other arcs turned to be better than I anticipated. Szeth was definitely an arc I dreaded which surprised me by actually being interesting to read. I ended loving reading Venli's arc which was one surprise I had in the book. Against all odds, I actually appreciated the Bridge 4 viewpoints, especially Skar and Rlain. I felt Skar, within one chapter, became such an interesting character I now hope to read more of him. Maya was also a nice addition and the a small band-aid to put onto the disappointment Adolin turned out to be, the only reason left to hope for more and better Adolin within future books. Dalinar's flashbacks were absolutely awesome and I love how they also fleshed out his relationship with his sons: quiet often forgotten Renarin and vividly imaginative Adolin who's was born to live up to his father's expectations. Dalinar/Evi's relationship lived up to the expectations, it was both more heart-breaking, sadder, but also more grim and brutal than I expected: truly amazing. The small tip bit we got on Jasnah's past was enough to help humanize an otherwise very cold character. I also don't share the dislike of the original poster for Taravangian's story arc. I read him as an old man, frail, having thought for one moment he was the smartest man in the universe only to find out his brilliant plan had flaws. He then hangs up to few valid pieces and bargains with Odium to save his people, at least. I read him as a man having failed in a spectacular way, knowing he has lost, but trying to save a remnant of a remnant, trying to do some good with an endless string of bad decisions. There is still much potential for this arc... How far will Taravangian go? In the end, I do agree we aren't always going to be pleased with how SA turns out to be. There will be books where favored protagonists, such as Kaladin, take a small step towards the background. There will be character arcs which never really happen such as Amaram, but I do hope Brandon will NEVER pull put another Adolin, another arc implying so much additional development for a viewpoint character only to have it all end in a rather anti-climatic way. This, I hope to never read again. For the rest, there is no way around it.
  44. 3 points
    Happy Koloss Head Munching Day everyone! In honor of this momentous occasion I am sharing seasonal holiday songs (which like our seasonal holiday songs are often more about the season than the holiday) from throughout the Cosmere. Here is the Rosharan one (others can be found in the link in my signature): Let it rain! Let it rain! Let it rain! (sung by Dalinar to Navani to the tune of "Let it snow! Let it snow! Let it snow!")
  45. 2 points
    And it's fine if he liked it, and it's fine if you didn't. This thread is not productive if we are going devolve into just calling who's a fanboy or not. (I mean, to be clear, probably a lot of us generally really enjoy Brandon's books here.) It's fine if you didn't like the book but Calderis can also say why he liked it and try to divine why Brandon chose to do what he did. We aren't going to devolve into a thread where people are called fanboys (as if that's bad) or saying that someone who doesn't like the book is bad.
  46. 2 points
    While I may not agree in the specifics of @galendo 's post, I think he was spot on when he said that the reason why Oathbringer may be "underwhelming" (a strong word IMO) is that there were things that we expected but didn't receive/ weren't adressed in a satisfactory way. But we have to remember that while we didn't get some things we wanted, we also got things we couldn't have dreamed of. To me, the whole Dalinar arc was the best thing Brandon ever wrote. It was so emotional, so powerful, I couldn't stop reading. I think there are things in OB that diminish how good the book is, and that's why I don't think it is the best SA book yet, but it is still a REALLY GOOD book and some parts of it are simply fantastic. The lesson here is that we simply cannot expect Brandon to completely outdo himself every single time. Yes, he put aside some plotlines. Yes, he did some things that may people may not like now. But in the end, we have plenty of books showing that he thinks ahead. Maybe, in the end, we will realize that some of these "bad" parts in OB lead to something great in the future. Also, I would like to say that I've seen good arguments on both sides of this discussion and would like to remind everyone that just because you disagree with the overall opinion of someone, that doesn't mean that you have to disagree with everything that person says.
  47. 2 points
    This phrasing is a little misleading, but when Brandon talks about writing (I'm mostly thinking about Writing Excuses here, but I know some of his BYU lectures are online and I expect he uses similar vocabulary there) he talks a lot about being aware of "what promises are you making to the reader" and the importance of fulfilling those promises in a way that's satisfying but not necessarily what the reader expects. There's a significant overlap between Sharders and Writing Excuses listeners, so I expect that's how the term came to be used that way here.
  48. 2 points
    Report it with the little flag.
  49. 2 points
    ^ I like it, @hoiditthroughthegrapevine. Here's "Worldhopper Cameos", by The Kandra Minks
  50. 2 points
    @hoiditthroughthegrapevine. These are seriously good. I am (almost) speechless! I know its Disney, but I could kinda see Shallan doing a Little Mermaid (A Part of that world) or Mulan (Reflections). You could probably do a real bitterweet "Thank-you for the Music" play on Evi - ("I'm nothing special, in fact, I'm a bit of a bore" sounds like something she'd think about herself - and she probably thought she was lucky despite all evidence to the contrary) And you could totally have a scene of "So Long, Farewell" (The Sound of Music) where all the Bridgecrews say goodbye to Sadeas after Dalinar frees them I'd love to help but I am not sure I'd even know how to begin!
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