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      Oathbringer Spoiler Policy   11/13/2017

      Oathbringer is out! Let's make our policy on spoilers clear! 1. You must preface topics with Oathbringer spoilers with the prefix [OB] in the front 2. You are only allowed to post spoilers and spoiler topics in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board, Cosmere Theories, and some select work-related forums. 3. For posts in the Oathbringer Spoiler Board you do not need to use spoiler tags inside a topic marked [OB]. For Cosmere Theories, you also do not need to put spoiler tags inside your topic if the topic has [OB] in the title. However, for Cosmere Theories, if you are adding Oathbringer stuff to an old theory without the [OB] tag, those must go in spoiler tags and you must make it obvious outside the spoiler tag that the spoiler is regarding Oathbringer content. 4. For select things that do require talking about OB spoilers, in Events, Coppermind, and Arcanum forums, those are allowed but keep OB spoilers in spoiler tags 5. Avoid and minimize spoilers in topic titles--even though those two boards will not appear in the Recent Topics ticker, topic titles still appear in Recent Activity and the forum home.  6. You aren't allowed to post Oathbringer spoilers in places other than listed, even with spoiler tags.  It will be nine months and then the Oathbringer board will be re-merged with the Stormlight board and you will not need to tag these spoilers. If you'd like to move something in the Stormlight Archive board to the Oathbringer board, to update it with new Oathbringer information, Report the post and we will happily move it to the Oathbringer spoiler board. Part-by-part Reactions Though the Oathbringer Spoiler Board will be very spoilery, very fast (maybe don't come there until you've read the book, as people do have copies that bookstores sold early), you'll have these five topics for reactions if you want to nerd out: Part 1 Reactions
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  1. 62 points
    I managed to get my copy of Oathbringer a bit early and have been thinking and trying to make sense of Dalinar's awesome transformation at the end. In crafting a theory to explain this, I made a list of some important details and thought I would share those with y'all in the hope of a good discussion: Important Details: UNITE THEM! - Chapter 119 - I'll start off with the obvious detail, when Dalinar freaking grabs the fabric of reality with his hands and merges the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual realms together into a perpendicularity. We've had tidbits of perpendicularities in Arcanum Unbound and different things but to my knowledge, we've never seen anyone short of a Shard or splinter do something this powerful in the Cosmere as of yet. According to the Arcanum Unbounded, this generally requires "concentration of so much Investiture" that "creates points of ... friction, where a kind of tunneling exists". As far as I know, only Shards themselves have caused this in the past and it seems well outside the powers of a bondsmith so the question is how is Dalinar doing this? Syl says its Honor's perpendicularity so we at least know that it is Honor's power that Dalinar is wielding somehow. Whatever this power is, Dalinar seems to be able to do it on command now since he overcharged Kaladin with Stormlight in Chapter 122 before Kaladin takes off to find his missing bridgemen. I am Unity - Chapter 119 - When asked what he is by Venli, Dalinar responds with the awesome phrase "I am Unity", which could have many interpretations. Is this referring to his overall goal of unifying? Is it simply a cool way of leading into his unifying the Realms? Or is the capitalization of Unity important and does that signify that Dalinar has become something far more? WE KILLED YOU! - Chapter 119 - Perhaps my favorite detail is Odium's reaction to Dalinar's epiphany. Not only is Odium shocked by Dalinar's resistance, he seems to be downright scared here. And most interesting is the choice of pronouns here. In their previous discussion regarding Dalinar's sins, Odium always said "I" as in "I was there, influencing you", so this doesn't seem to be a royal "we". With the available information, I can see two possible explanations. One, Honor's death was a cooperative effort between Odium and some other party such as Autonomy though this seems unlikely since all of our evidence so far indicates that Odium killed Tanavast by himself. Second, and more intriguing, is the shattering of Adonalsium, which seems to better explain the anger, outrage, and fear in Odium's statements. What about Dalinar's Unity frightens Odium so much? What does Dalinar look like to Odium's eyes? How? What have you done? - Chapter 119 - Despite being the Cognitive shadow of a god, the Stormfather has no clue what or how Dalinar just accomplished. Is this just the typical Spren forgetfulness since he hasn't been bonded in millennia? Their later conversation seems to indicate that this really hasn't been done before... We are something different - Chapter 119 - Dalinar's own words to describe this event are "We are something different. His remnants, your soul, my will". This is interesting to me since it could be interpreted in a realmatic context as the combination of Physical (his remnants), Cognitive (my will), and Spiritual (your soul) components though the remnants seems like it should really be of all three and not just Physical. Dalinar was not supposed to Ascend - Chapter 122 - Another Odium line that stands out since the topic of Ascension has a known definition within the Cosmere: a vessel taking up a Shard of Adonalsium like in the Mistborn series. The context of this phrase is a bit murky though since Odium and Mr. T are talking about events in the past, present, and future so it's a bit unclear whether this is directly referring to Dalinar's display or if it is some future event that both Odium and Mr. T have foreseen. Still, this clearly indicates to me that something major is going on with Dalinar and it seems like Odium thinks that this is not a one-hit wonder use of power on his part. Interesting side note is how the heck do y'all think the "Renarin Kholin" reference fits into this conversation? Was he the one who should have Ascended or was he the catalyst that caused Dalinar's Ascension (perhaps in that one flashback where Renarin breaks Dalinar out of his drinking and makes him realize a bit how awful he is being)? A warmth that he had known once before - Chapter 119 - Right before Dalinar Unites, he feels this weird warmth. As far as I can tell, this seems to refer to Dalinar's curious dream/vision in Ch 89 of WoR, where he seemingly relives a childhood moment before stepping outside where "warm light bathed him. A deep, enveloping, piercing warmth. A warmth that soaked down deep through his skin, into his very self. He stared at that light, and was not blinded. The source was distant, but he knew it. Knew it well. He smiled". Still don't have a good explanation for what's going on here but we do have confirmation a few pages later that the Stormfather did not send this. Since all of Dalinar's previous interactions with Honor have been mediated by the Stormfather, what could this warmth be? Unite them - Throughout all books, Dalinar's thoughts are almost always drawn to a single phrase "Unite them" that has driven a lot of his actions so far. Presumably, the first instance of this was the vision that Honor/Stormfather gave him but it continues to be repeated time and time again in Dalinar's viewpoints. It's a phrase that has been interpreted to mean many things over the books like "unite the highprinces", "unite the world", and "unite the radiants" but here we see it once again in probably the most spectacular fashion as he physically unites the realms. Are these words just Dalinar's continual introspection on these words or is this an external voice speaking to him? The Stormfather said it wasn't him in Chapter 111 and Dalinar definitely perceived it to be an external voice. Was it always an external voice or just this time? Who or what could this be? Theories: Looking at the available evidence, I have come up with three possible explanations for the power that Dalinar is wielding now: Dalinar has, or is in the process of, reforming Honor and is its new vessel - I believe we have some WoB that this is possible but very difficult. The "something different" and "we killed you" details seem like they dispute this but either one could be interpreted to support it. Syl claiming that the perpendicularity is Honor's does seem to support this however. Another possibility is that he has somehow accumulated enough of Honor's Investiture to become something like a mini-sliver like a Herald or above. Dalinar has somehow accumulated enough Investiture to become something new, Unity - Perhaps not a full Shard but something akin to or above a Herald in power and not necessarily linked with Honor alone. At this point, he's had direct interactions with three Shards/remnants of Shards, which seems unique, and could somehow have taken some measure of power from each. To be specific, Odium has been shaping him into a Champion for what seems like his entire life and likely had to sink some Investiture in him to do so. Cultivation took a piece of him and perhaps gave something in its place when he visited. And we all know that he has a big piece of Honor in his pocket in the form of the Stormfather. Syl's claim that the perpendicularity was Honor's could just be her best guess or it could be that the bulk of Dalinar's new power is of Honor and that's what she's sensing. Has the combination of all of this Investiture made him into something unique? I think this is the most likely theory though the "we killed you" detail doesn't seem to quite fit. Dalinar is, in some way, connected to Adonalsium on a deeper level than we thought - This is a bit more out-there than the other two theories and is predicated mostly on the "we killed you" detail. I think there's a WoB out there somewhere that Dalinar was one of the first characters of the SA that Brandon came up with (number 17 here) and this makes me curious. I'm probably reading too much into this random detail but could Dalinar be something like the reincarnation of Adonalsium? We've had absolutely no evidence of this before now but it kinda fits the fear in Odium's reaction to Dalinar's Ascension. Of course, I would expect a god to pick up on that fact if he's been watching and influencing a dude for most of his life but maybe there's more going on than we know? There was also that curious exchange between Wit and Dalinar in WoK regarding Adonalsium (Chapter 54) that could support this theory but there's a WoB (number 1 here) saying that was probably not that significant. Building off the previous theory, perhaps Odium interprets Dalinar's combination of the three Shard's Investiture as a preliminary attempt to reforge Adonalsium.
  2. 59 points
    My guess would be: "I cannot save everyone, but I will save those I can".
  3. 55 points
    This is a fork of a hastily-posted and incorrect previous theory that had some very interesting replies. I wanted to write up everything in a new thread with references; special thanks to CaptainRyan, Wandering Investor, lookingglass, Subvisual Haze, and ROSHtaFARian2.0. THEORY: The third Bondsmith is bonded to a large and powerful spren that powers the Urithiru fabrial network. For simplicity, we will refer to this spren as "the Sibling." Three Siblings and Three Bondsmiths In OB Ch 64, Dalinar talks to the Stormfather about the other Bondsmiths: Later, in OB Ch 111, they discuss the three siblings again: It has long been suspected that there are three Bondsmiths because there are three Shards on Roshar. We have long assumed that the Nightwatcher was the second spren, which the Stormfather seems to be confirming in this quote. Following this logic, the conclusion would be that Odium also has a "giant" spren and that the third Bondsmith has the job of wrangling them. I assumed this in my original post, and assumed that the Sibling referenced by the Radiants (see below) was clearly not a voidspren and thus must be the Nightwatcher. However, thanks to the clever people in that thread, I think this must be false. As an aside, in the WoR Ch 44 epigraph we learn that one Bondsmith "was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru." Honor and Cultivation When thinking about Honor and Cultivation, it's important to remember that their Vessels were lovers, so it seems reasonable that they would have children. It would be totally reasonable for the children of Shards to be spren, I think. Based on the Stormfather's language, I think now that the Sibling is a combination of Honor and Cultivation. In retrospect, this makes much more sense than having the Bondsmith be Connected to a big, nasty voidspren. There is no reason to believe it is impossible, but I don't think that Odium would allow a particularly powerful Spren to lend its aid to the enemy. In fact, as the Bondsmiths are the most powerful individuals in Honor's magic system, I find it unnatural that they would be Connected to Odium. The Radiant's thoughts on the Sibling We know much about the Sibling from the gemstones left by the Radiants. They are generically supportive of the entity, which suggests that it is not of Odium or the Unmade. We can also draw some conclusions: I think it safe to assume that the Sibling was a large spren, and either withdrew from men or was forced away (Ch 68 and 70 epigraphs, respectively). Note that zircon is the stone for the Elsecallers, experts on spren and Shadesmar. The Sibling leaving was at least correlated in time with the abandonment of Urithiru and possibly of the Knights themselves (Ch 87 epigraph): The Urithiru fabrial I'm presenting this theory a bit backwards - the original impetus came from my earlier thread and the many good replies therein. Nevertheless, I think much of the logic still hangs together. Urithiru is an interesting place for many reasons. Even in the book, Shallan, Renarin, and Navani have already realized the tower is huge fabrial (Ch 44, 44, and 109): However, they can't simply turn it back on by re-infusing the pillar (Ch 44): This seems to imply that the spren that powered the fabrial is no longer present. It's important to note that the pillar would hold an almost unimaginable amount of Investiture. In fact, if we wanted to store a spren with power on order of the Stormfather, I think we would need something like that pillar. Lastly, the tower provides magical defenses against the Unmade (Ch 73): Cultivation's influence on the tower My original idea had the Nightwatcher pegged as the inhabitant because of the following quotes (Ch 69 and 107): The first seems to imply that growing things in Urithiru was relatively easy up until something went wrong, and the second seems to imply that the issues persist. Urithiru is supposed to be the Knight's stronghold on Roshar, and having a good food source is part of outlasting a siege. As Urithiru was almost certainly created by Honor and probably Cultivation for humans, it would be not very logical to fail to provide a source of food for the tower. But given the climate, plants would ordinarily struggle to grow. A major Splinter of Cultivation living nearby would probably be more than enough to compensate, allowing for plant life. It is entirely possible that the plants growing are just another part of the fabrial network, but this does not change the conclusion if we believe the captured spren would still need to be significantly related to Cultivation. PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER If we take the Stormfather's words literally and keep in mind Honor and Cultivation's romantic relationship, it seems entirely reasonable that the third Sibling is mix of their two powers. This Sibling is mentioned multiple times in reference to Urithiru, which has been established as an enormous fabrial. Putting these together, we can reason that this third Sibling powers the Urithiru fabrial and encourages plant growth. The third Bondsmith bonds this Sibling, which prompts them to stay in Urithiru. When this Sibling leaves Urithiru (either willingly or not), the tower's defenses fail and the Unmade can move in. How and why this occurs, how it is related to the Recreance, and the current status of the Sibling (apart from hurt and asleep) are all up for debate. The importance of Urithiru suggests that someone will need to find the Sibling and convince them to come back. Final thoughts My sincere thanks to everyone in the prior thread who contributed to these ideas. I welcome all commentary, and look forward to learning more. As a postscript, in my mind I imagine the Sibling as a huge warrior in Shadesmar, fighting off the influence of the Unmade.
  4. 49 points
    So let’s talk Renarin, shall we? Now, if you fine folks are anything like myself, you might have found yourself confused by some of the reveals that Oathbringer brought about regarding Renarin and his powers. This was a twist that I saw coming a long way off, and so I was more than ready when we found out that Renarin had been affected by a voidish corruption and that this was the reason for his strange and ominous visions. If you’d like to see how WoR foreshadowed this moment, you can check out my theory Renarin’s Visions and Truthwatching and see all the reasoning for this twist. However, what I want to do here today is get into the nitty gritty of what’s really going on. Is Renarin a Voidbinder or a Surgebinder or both? Is Glys a Voidspren? How do the visions work? How did this happen? All those good questions are the ones that I’d like to try to tackle here. Theory Disclaimer: Most of these things have not been confirmed in canon and Brandon has been cagey about answering or confirming. However, this explanation is the one which seems most plausible to me based on the evidence at hand. So let me do a bullet point run-down of what I think is happening: Glys is actually a valid Truthwatcher spren, not a voidspren. Renarin is a valid Truthwatcher Radiant and therefore a Surgebinder with access to the surges of Progression and Illumination. Renarin uses Stormlight to power his surges, just like other Radiants. Glys has been corrupted by the Unmade Sja-anat. As a result of this corruption, in addition to his normal Truthwatcher powers, Renarin is afflicted by involuntary visions of the future which neither he nor Glys can control. The points above are those that I feel are fairly concrete, and I’ll go into the reasoning behind those ideas later below. However, upon this assumed situation, I believe that the following ideas are viable possibilities. The following points are less certain than those above, but these are the ideas that seem the most plausible to me, given the circumstances: The powers that the Fused display are expressions of Voidbinding. Renarin’s future visions are possibly also an expression of Voidbinding, but his other powers are not. If Renarin’s Voidbinding and Fused Voidbinding work in the same way, it is possible that all Voidbinding powers come from the influence of the Unmade, in that Sja-anat can grant Voidish future visions while other Unmade grant different powers, like illusions, frictionlessness, or gravity, as we see other Fused use. And upon these assumptions, we find several questions arise regarding the nature of the situation: If both Renarin and the Fused are Voidbinders, is a spren involved in the granting of Voidbinding powers to the Fused in the same way they were granted to Renarin? If Voidish powers are each affiliated with an Unmade, why are there seemingly 10 powers on the Voidbinding chart if there are only 9 Unmade? Does Odium grant a Bondsmith equivalent himself? If Voidbinding powers are not granted by the Unmade, how are they gained? In what way are Renarin and the Fused similar in situation that grants them the same powers? What caused the hypergraphia that accompanied the visions of the Everstorm, and why does that no longer happen when Renarin gets visions? All of which are fascinating, but unfortunately, more likely to get a RAFO than an answer in a signing line. The first I have already asked and been RAFO’d and I believe the others are going to be answered similarly, if attempted. If I had to guess, these are reveals that will happen in Renarin’s flashback book. Considering that book is in the back five, we’ve probably got a while to wait. Alas. Regardless, no use fretting over the information we don’t have when it’s so much more fun to dissect the information we do have. And Oathbringer certainly gave us plenty to dissect. So, let’s take the situation that I’ve outlined above and break it down with some textual evidence to help explain where these ideas come from. Glys the Truthwatcher spren and Renarin the Radiant This is one of the easiest points to guess, considering the wealth of information we have on the topic. A lot of this is due to the Renarin point of view chapters in Part 5. (Thank you, Brandon, I owe you my soul for those.) Renarin’s surges seem to work perfectly normally. He heals people with Regrowth at several points in the novel, fairly naturally. I believe we see a slight, unconscious use of Illumination in the scene with Adolin and Gallant, when Renarin makes a perfected vision of Adolin appear. Renarin also mentions trying to train with Shallan in using Illumination, but he has difficulty with it. Now, it could be assumed that Renarin’s failure to grasp Illumination is a sign that his surges are wrong, and yet I think this is simply another example of a Radiant finding one surge more easy to pick up than another. Shallan is naturally better at Illumination than Transformation. Lift is better at Abrasion than Progression. It seems common enough that Radiants have an affinity for one of their surges over the other. For Renarin, I believe this is that Progression is easier than Illumination. In addition to his surges, Renarin’s other expressions of Radiant abilities seem normal. Glys is able to form as a Shardblade, which no one deems as looking out of the ordinary. It also functions to open Oathgates. His healing factor works as the other Radiants’, albeit augmented by his power of Progression to make healing extremely rapid. Most tellingly, his powers use Stormlight, just as all the others do. Ivory says that there is a rightness to the bond between Renarin and Glys and that spren of Odium should not be able to bond with humans under normal circumstances. Through all of these things, one can assume that Renarin and Glys have a valid Nahel bond and are bonded as Radiant and spren, just as the others are. Sja-anat’s Corruption However, in addition to the normal suite of a Truthwatcher’s powers and the Nahel bond, there is another factor in the mix: Sja-anat. When Sja-anat speaks with Shallan she speaks of her son when telling Shallan that she is not an enemy, as though he would vouch for her. This is undoubtedly Glys. It’s interesting to note that this seems to indicate that Glys is working with Sja-anat, possibly willingly. Perhaps she approached a Radiant spren hoping that by giving changing one of them, she would have an ally who would help the Radiants trust her. Or perhaps it’s something else. Hard to say at this point. Regardless, it is because of this that Renarin can see the future, and why he is consumed with visions. Though it is possible that other Truthwatchers have a manner of foresight, I don’t believe it would manifest as Renarin’s does. Ivory states that future sight is a power of Odium, as the Vorins believe. I believe Sja-anat has been hoping to swap sides and is using Glys as a way to do it, as well as helping Shallan instead of killing them when they went through the Oathgate. Voidbinding So in the end, what is Voidbinding? Hard to say with certainty, since despite how often we see Voidbinders, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of answers about it. Working under the assumption that the Fused’s powers are Voidbinding we can see a few things, at least: Voidbinding seems to line up with surges in many cases, as we see Fused manipulating gravity and friction, just like Kaladin and Lift. It’s hard to tell if this means that Renarin’s corrupted sight is also a form of Voidbinding as well, since it doesn’t seem to line up with a Surge the way the others are. The Listener Song of Secrets speaks of Nightform, a form of power which can see the future, which seems as though it might be more similar to what Renarin can do than anything else we’ve seen. The question is, Renarin is getting his void-powers from a corrupted spren, but I don’t believe that the Fused have a corrupted spren giving them powers, which initially made me think that Renarin’s visions were not Voidbinding like the Fused. Now, I’m not so sure. For the moment, I think I will lean toward the idea that Renarin’s visions and the powers of the Fused are both Voidbinding somehow, even if we don’t have details to confirm anything either way. There’s just not enough answers for the moment. Time will tell. If anyone can get answers out of Brandon regarding this topic, I’d be greatly appreciative but I doubt he’s going to answer things. Conclusion There’s a lot that we just don’t know yet, but I’m excited to see where this goes in the future. For now, this is my best guess at what’s really going on until we get some more information on all of it. One thing that hasn’t changed is that I adore Renarin with all of my heart and somehow Brandon continues to write his plotline and character arc in ways which are intensely fascinating to me. Oathbringer has been a triumph and I can’t wait to see what’s in store!
  5. 42 points
    A bit of background for those who have remained blissfully unaware of this meme (such as @Kurkistan, apparently). Early in 2015, after Brandon's Firefight tour, he came to Chicago and did an impromptu signing where I asked him about Renarin and his Words of Radiance visions, mostly because they didn't feel explainable with either one of the Truthwatcher Surges. The exchange in question (behind a spoiler tag, for brevity): https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e64 What you don't see in this exchange is my commentary where I explain that I can share as much as another eventgoer would've been able to glimpse - that Brandon asked me for my copy of The Way of Kings, the US hardcover, and pointed me to a specific page in it. A page that supposedly explained the visions. And a page that would come up in both public discourse and private messages every few weeks to few months. Well, Oathbringer is out, I've gotten a chance to check in with Brandon and make sure it's okay to do a reveal, and he said that it was. So, since I am running out of ways to tease - or troll - you all, I'll just drop it here, without my 2 years worth of speculations, and see what you do with it. A wiser man might've prepared a proper theory to go with this, to catch you up on my thoughts, but I am honestly too tired (and, to be honest, busy) to this right now. So. The Page
  6. 39 points
    As we all know "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead." On the topic of dead spren didn't anyone find it weird that the spren's eyes were scratched out and when you kill someone with a shardblade their eyes burn? Is it the spren imitating what happens to humans in the physical realm o something else? Eyes are windows to the soul after all, so does that mean the line between a spren's spiritual realm is broken?
  7. 36 points
    "I will not let those I can't save prevent me from saving those I can" was what I was thinking
  8. 34 points
    Preface: The most part of it is solidly grounded in facts and WoBs. You can rely on it. Some part of it is reasonable speculation, so you should not treat is as a fact, but like a theory. Sorry it's so long. The Letters. The one in The Way of Kings was written by Hoid to Frost (WoB), and the one in Words of Radiance was Frost's response to Hoid. The Letters are written after events of First Mistborn Era (WoB). In Oathbringer we got three: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters#Oathbringer_Letters What can we conclude about the identities of the writers and recipient? Well, the first thing is that two of them are adressed to Cephandrius - known as Hoid's alias - and the Third to "Dear Friend", but it's commonly assumed it's also adressed to Hoid. The Third writer almost certainly is Harmony. But my interests are in the First and Second. First, some WoBs on the topic: What are the Shards we have seen or know of? Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Harmony - Ruin & Preservation (Vessel: Sazed) Endowment (Vessel: Edgli) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Odium (Vessel: Rayse) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) The last two are questionable, as Brandon may be refering to the knowledge from books and not necessarily from WoBs. But then we have another WoB that will help us narrow down the identity of the first writer: What are the worlds we have seen? Taldain Sel Scadrial Nalthis Roshar (depending on how you understand "have seen" - also Ashyn and Braize) Threnody First of the Sun Well, this excludes Shard not on a planet and possibly Ambition, as Ambition is not on Threnody. I also doubt the Shard that is hiding is on the First of the Sun, but we'll get to that later. With Harmony having written the Third and the First Letter mentioning Rayse, Aona, Skai and Uli Da by name, we're left with: Autonomy Endowment Honor (dead and Splintered) Cultivation Judging by the fact that the Letter is supposedly a response for Hoid's plea for help against Rayse and that the writer is dissapointed that so few of the Shards kept to the agreement of not interfering with each other, we can also remove Cultivation. Which leaves us with two possible candidates: Autonomy Endowment If we believe Khriss words in Taldain essay about Autonomy's interference with other planets, it leaves us with Endowment as having written the First Letter. The Third Letter is written almost certainly by Harmony (I say that just because Brandon did not outright confirm that in a WoB but I doubt it's not Harmony). Second Letter So we need to update our list of who might have written the Second Letter. It also mentions Rayse, so we can cross out Odium: Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) Well, that's still a lot, isn't it? Well, let's assume that these Letters are really responses to Hoid's plea for help against Odium. It doesn't make sense then that he'd write to Rosharan Shards. We can cross out Cultivation and Honor (who is also very, very, very dead at the time of Oathbringer). The Letter in The Way of Kings also mentions Aona and Skai being dead and their Shards Splintered, so I think we can reasonably assume nobody has Ascended to them since. Which leaves us with... Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) At that point there is no much to go off of - unless we assume Brandon in that first WoB up there at the beginning of this wall of text meant the Shards we know from books, not WoBs. Which leaves us with only two: Autonomy and Ambition. I'm gonna analyse each separately. But first, a WoB on the topic: The line "That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic." probably refers to an earlier WoB in that event which confirmed that all Investiture in Cosmere is associated with a Shard, even if it was not on Yolen on the time of the Shattering. It got assigned to Shards, but it's not part of what the Vessel of the Shard commands. Two important things that we can take from this WoB: First of the Sun has Investiture that is directly associated with a Shard and the island Patji is a Shard. With big asterisk. one of the letters in Oathbringer references First of the Sun Reading through the letters, the only one left that can reference any place is the Second Letter. (Unless we take " I noticed your many intrusions into my land " from the First Letter as reference to First of the Sun, but that's another can of worms, one I do not intend to open). It's either the place the writer is or the Obrodai that's being referenced. For now, let's analyse possibilities of Autonomy and Ambition. Autonomy Certainly a fan favorite, if I may say so. Many of us believe it's Autonomy, and there are certain clues that point to it, although some of that fierce conviction seems to be based on the assumption that the Shard assaulting Scadrial during the Second Mistborn Era is Autonomy. Not an unreasonable assumption, given what we know of Autonomy meddling with other worlds (if Khriss essay on Taldain is to be believed), having multiple religions or having entire pantheons where every worshipped god is actually Bavadin. Especially the last one seems to point in that direction, when you remember that the islands that Patji is part of are called Pantheon. Some people believe that Autonomy's modus operandi of creating personas is the reason for why the Letter is written by a collective. It's reasonable, but personally I doubt it - there's one thing in crafting personas and letting them attract attention, but it's not a reason for Autonomy to actually be a mind collective. Which leads us to... Ambition That is my favorite. Yes, Uli Da is dead, and Ambition is Splintered (WoB). But... Splintering can be a vague term sometimes. And we've seen Ambition's influence (which most of us ascribe to Shades of Threnody) and things that happened with Ambition have had ramifications across many places in the cosmere. Recently Brandon added that "this specific Splintering has had far-reaching effects" (WoB). From essay on First of the Sun we know Khriss is certain there is no Shard there... but her essays are more contemporary (sometime after Ascension of Harmony, and definitely long before Sixth of the Dusk happens: #1 #2) and she does not know what we know about First of the Sun: #1 #2. That is weird: ... since now Brandon has stated that Patji is a Shard. (With big asterisk). Hm... What if Ambition is not on a planet... what if it's on planets? What if Ambition's Splinters - maybe larger than the usual Splinters like spren or seons or skaze, but instead massive like Unmade, Nightwatcher or even Stormfather - have formed a collective mind? It would explain why the writer is speaking like a group. Let's see what is said in the Letter: It implies mutliple beings. They are hiding part of their being on a world and were surprised and are intrigued how Hoid has managed to locate them there. It would explain why Khriss is certain there is no Shard there - there is just a Splinter and it actively hides its presence. They have many realms. They wish to be alone. They do not believe in interfering with another Shards - does it fit the meddling Autonomy? I don't think so. Admiration of his initiative - it would be strange if it's Ambition, right? Since Odium has mortally wounded Ambition. But... Preservation admired Rashek just because he did not change. Even though he was a tyrant and responsible for many deaths, it was a quality to be admired. Why then cannot Ambition admire Odium's initiative and will to act? They have claimed a world - for me it fits Ambition to claim multiple worlds, to add it to their many realms. If it was Autonomy, why an avatar is beginning to manifest? Autonomy's personas are more of a masks Bavadin dons. And the new avatar was instilled with some preference - it suggests truly another mind, part of Ambition's collective, and not just a persona Autonomy uses. This reeks of Ambition to me - for Hoid to be deemed worthy of further communication, he must prove himself by overcoming tests (perhaps getting to Patji's eye?). It's only fitting that one can earn Ambition's respect by overcoming obstacles - it's a proof of your determination, will to act, drive... ambition. tl;dr: Harmony almost certainly wrote the Third Letter, the First one was written likely by Endowment and Second Letter was written either by Autonomy or Ambition (and I personally think the latter).
  9. 34 points
    Obviously, boots are well suited for running jokes.
  10. 33 points
    Probably my favorite was the description of all of the newly changed parshmens behaviors. Especially the Azish who decided to formally lodge a formal complaint as opposed to outright war.
  11. 33 points
    I was extremely disappointed. Not because of the result (well, the reasoning is iffy, but more to that later), but because the Kaladin/Shallan angle isn't even remotely explored. All this teasing - for nothing. And that continues right through Oathbringer... Kaladin has his thoughts, Shallan has her thoughts, Adolin has his thoughts. Nobody talks. I think, that it could just have been left out to be honest... nothing would have changed. There was 1 (one) meaningful conversation between Shallan and Kaladin, which then was misinterpreted by Shallan as Kaladin actually encouraging her to use Veil and Radiant, while he was actually referring to her ability to just "push" stuff away into her mind. And he didn't even encourage her, but rather him just saying, that he would like to be able to do that. And that was it. Great. The reasoning: Adolin knows her? Christ, he maybe recognizes her, but doesn't really know her. Ironically, he actually encourages her usage of Veil by being the accepting fiancee, now husband. Something that Shallan seemingly criticized about Kaladin... I think, Shallan just took the easy way out. Like always. Pushing her attraction to Kaladin on Veil was the icing on the cake. Basically another big fat lie. And don't tell me, that Adolin recognizing her was the catalyst that helped her with her problem. No, that was Hoid. Personal matter/opinion: Shadolin is cheesy, boring and bland. I really hope Book Four adds some spice into that. You know, something interesting? That one conversation on the boat between Kaladin and Shallan had more meaning and chemistry than every single interaction between Adolin and Shallan in Oathbringer. Not to talk about Adolin's observations about Shallan watching Kaladin and her own subconscious actions (drawing etc.) In my eyes, Kaladin is able to connect with Shallan on a level, that Adolin will never be able to achieve. Because he isn't even interested in it. Not unless something happens to Adolin... And I think that is something we all don't want. Maybe something through Veil... I don't know.
  12. 32 points
    Can I just say right here how lovely Renarin is as a person? He just cares. He’s so nice. I love that kid so much - and all the while he’s worried that he’s turning evil - so much so that he’s willing to let his cousin kill him because he thinks he’s dangerous. Even more; he saw it coming and just accepted his fate. Which leads to Jasnah’s best scene. Also, Evi. Can we talk about Evi? One of the most consistently kind, loving, generous people in this world? So much so that she walks herself into a condemned city in order to give it one last chance at life. The woman who raises her kids to love and honour their father, because of the goodness she sees in him that struggles to break through his addiction to the Thrill. And all the while she’s living in a society that mocks her and everything she stands for. That thinks she’s weak for disliking killing, that thinks she’s weird for liking (and being public about) hugs, that thinks she’s slow for not being constantly biting and cruel to those around her through a wit she hasn’t honed. She’s the only one who’s happy to hear that her husband didn’t murder a child. She’s a vote of sanity and peace in a brutal and insane culture. Do you wonder that we like Adolin and Renarin so much? They are her children as much or more than they are Dalinar’s. They have the power and honour of the Dalinar, tempered by the gentle loving nature of their mother. We need more Evi’s in the world. (Roshar and Earth).
  13. 31 points
    Something strange is going on with Nohadon. I trust Dalinar when he says that it's a vision and it's unlike the rest. Nohadon, inside that vision, speaks to Dalinar with familiarity, and directly addressed the manifestation of the thunderclast. The Stormfather also says that Dalinar was shown all the visions of Nohadon. And yet, in the vision, Nohadon addresses Dalinar directly: This is something that has not happened before. This is also the first time we see the question "what is the most important step a man can take," which will have great significance later on. Before I go any further, I want to extend some thank yous to the folks who beat into my head the possibility of this being a thing over on this thread. It took a lot of hard convincing but they finally won me over, so thanks for sticking with it everyone, especially @hoser and @Paragrin So the essence of that thread was trying to figure out who Odium was referencing when Dalinar Ascended and he said "No, we killed you." While I'm supposing that person is Nohadon, I don't want to get into that discussion per se, but rather, the proofs behind whether it's possible and what people think about him on a broader level, as a quick search didn't show a Nohadon topic. To boil things down, I think that Nohadon was a Bondsmith, and he was bonded to the Sibling. I think that after he died, he bound his cognitive shadow to the spren in a similar way to what Honor did, preserving him for the future and allowing him to connect with Dalinar. There is some textual evidence to support this theory. First off, of any order, the Bondsmiths would be the ones who would be able to accomplish something like this. The Way of Kings is also very much about unifying people. It's the book that inspired Dalinar to become a Bondsmith. Nohadon exhibits those traits of uniting instead of dividing. But let's continue on past this point. The evidence is not hard, but plausible, that Nohadon could both be a Bondsmith and accomplish such a task. We know there are only three Bondsmiths. In Oathbringer, we learned a few more things. So one Bondsmith that generation. They fear it's because Honor is changing. I put forth that it because this is when Honor intentionally splintered himself into the Stormfather. I say this because we know that Dalinar is the first to bond the Stormfather since the change. This means we can infer they had been previously bonding the Stormfather and one other spren since they were aware of their concerns with Honor. We have this information from an Elsecaller, saying that one Sibling had withdrawn. I put forth that this Sibling was bonded to Nohadon, and she discovered that Nohadon had preserved his cognitive shadow inside of it. Paragrin has solid evidence that with Connection, you can interact with people from the spiritual realm, even without it having a direct influence on the way the text formatting is displayed, or the internal voice is distinguished in the character's mind. I'm still going through my reread, but, in the chapter 'Bondsmith,' I found another little piece that made me think Nohadon was nudging Dalinar along. Dalinar has his reaction, the Stormfather rumbles around, as he is want to do, and then there is a disappointment beyond that. Which is what I am putting forth to be Nohadon's Cognitive Shadow bonded to a spren, using Connection to interact with Dalinar. He does this again later, answering the question he gave Dalinar earlier as Dalinar struggles for meaning against the pain of his past and questions the answer he came to so easily. On a more personal note, the way Brandon answers this question makes me feel like he wanted to see if they had picked up on some foreshadowing he had put into place, but I haven't scrutinized WoK or WoR, and this is from when WoR was published. He's reacting similarly to the when I asked about Helaran not being bonded to a spren during the WoR signing. So, brief wrap up, plausible evidence that it could be possible using a Bondsmith's power, Nohadon displays the right temperament to be a Bondsmith, Nohadon interacts with Dalinar in a way that could not be a vision and Dalinar recognizes to not be a dream, we have evidence that using Connection a character can interact with another in a way that doesn't alter book script, and the italics during Dalinar's Ascension pick up right where they left off conversing in the dream, where Nohadon answers the question he posed to Dalinar.
  14. 30 points
    I've never posted here before, but I'm a regular reader of the forum. However, I have a theory that may be totally crazy and it isn't backed up by any evidence. Adolin does not appear to broken in the same way that most of the other Radiant's are. The guilt he suffered over Sadeas' murder doesn't seem to qualify as at the end of the book he makes it clear he felt he made the right decision. What if instead of him speaking the words of the Edgedancers, Mayalaran has to speak the words to be revived and create the Nahel bond? It is clear that Maya is regaining some semblance of consciousness and quite frankly I find the symmetry appealing. Also I factored in the fact that Adolin didn't have anything to do with Maya's initial death.
  15. 29 points
    Dalinar: Do you have a weapon? Lift: Nope. Can't read. I loled
  16. 28 points
    So, finished Oathbringer last night. I was talking with my husband, and he made an interesting point. When Dalinar reconstructed Honor's perpendicularity, it seemed to unite all three realms. Evidence: Stormlight doesn't originate in the cognitive realm (it manifests as a wave there too), but the perpendicularity released a huge amount of Stormlight. Whatever that means, I want to focus on Odium's reaction. Odium/Rayse looked on in horror and said "No! We killed you!". Note that he said we, not I. Since he hasn't used the royal we anywhere else, that means he was talking about a group of which he was a part. From this, I think he was looking at the Spiritual Realm and seeing Adonalsium, not Honor. Further evidence: whatever he saw made him shrink back in horror and lessen the Everstorm. The only thing that would be more powerful than a shard (save Harmony's two shards) is Adonalsium his/itself. I think that, in the Spiritual Realm where everything is perfected, Adonalsium never died. To paraphrase Navani, if it was really God, it couldn't have been killed. I think that the shardbearers merely broke the part of Adonalsium that showed up in the Physical and Cognitive Realms. What do you think, sirs?
  17. 28 points
    I've been thinking about this, and I think we might be proscribing too large a significance to who he is talking about. Here's the scene condensed. As much as I also want to put huge cosmeric weight to those words, I think Odium is more concerned with the immediate present. He's also probably as familiar with shardic theory as anyone is, having splintered multiple shards after ascending himself, and he repeatedly states that as Bondsmith Dalinar has authority to speak/act for Honor, so it seems unlikely that he would be surprised at a shard starting to coalesce around Dalinar, the one most currently aligned with its power. Instead, I think Odium is entirely fixated on this moment and why it failed. I don't think it's an unfair assumption to think that Odium is seeing similar visions to Renarin and flat out assumed Dalinar would bend to his will without much of a fight. The reason for this is because they removed the biggest obstacle to this moment years ago. I use 'they' in the same context I think Odium is using 'we:' Dalinar and Odium. I think Odium is talking about Evi. Odium was sure that by using the thrill to have Dalinar kill the one source of light in his life, he had recruited himself a champion for life, but then Dalinar reaches into the spiritual realm and receives forgiveness and peace, destroying Odium's plans and visions. In that moment of shock, he cannot comprehend someone reaching out from the spiritual realm, especially an obstacle that he and Dalinar took care of. His shock is manifested in what he says. "No! No! Dalinar and I killed Evi. WE KILLED YOU! YOU CAN'T FORGIVE HIM" (My interpretation added.)
  18. 28 points
    Oathbringer has given us a much more in-depth look at Odium's forces, particularly the Unmade. Unquestionably, one of the most interesting of the Unmade is Ba-Ado-Mishram. This is a promising villain. The mindless Unmade are terrifying enough, let alone an Unmade that commanded Odium's troops. Surely she has to be a major villain in this book series. However, a question remains. Where is she? Both of these are possibilities. However, returning to Damnation seems unlikely, the rest of the Unmade seem fairly active. We've seen evidence that Nergaoul, Moelach, and Chemoarish have remained active, if subtle during the Era of Solitude. In fact, we know that it is impossible that Ba-Ado-Mishram was destroyed during Aharietiam or returned to Braize afterward. These epigraphs are from the gemstones left behind in Urithiru, from around the time of its abandonment before the Recreance. So Ba-Ado-Mishram was still alive around the time of the False Desolation, allowing the singers to take on the forms of power and providing Voidlight. A strike team went to go to imprison her, and nothing has been heard of her since. Since the arrival of the Everstorm, she has made no appearance at either Kholinar or the Battle of Thaylen Fields, the two largest direct conflicts so far. So it seems possible that they succeeded. So, if she is imprisoned, where could she be? We know that she is crafty and that she provides Voidlight, which seems to have been entirely absent in Roshar since her imprisonment. With one notable exception. Gavilar's dark spheres have long been a subject of discussion. Some have considered the possibility that those spheres contain Unmade. Given what we've seen this book, I consider that to be unlikely. We have at least six of the Unmade accounted for, with only Dai-gonarthis, Chemoarish, and Ba-Ado-Mishram absent. What are the odds that Gavilar happens to have two perfect gems each containing an Unmade and that he values them so little that he's willing to give them away? The most simple explanation is that these spheres are charged with Voidlight. Where could Gavilar have gotten it from? The easiest answer prior to the Everstorm and the new Desolation is that he got it from Ba-Ado-Mishram. Gavilar seems to give additional credence to that idea. The spren he refers to must be Ba-Ado-Mishram. How does he know about this? He's presumably seeing the same visions that Dalinar did (I'm making the assumption that he bonded the Stormfather because there is no evidence so far of a connection between Gavilar and the Nightwatcher and the Sibling remains elusive). Dalinar knows nothing about the capture of Ba-Ado-Mishram from his visions, so how does Gavilar? Gavilar has long seemed to know things he shouldn't. He even mentions a new storm here, something that did not appear in Dalinar's visions (one may make an argument about the destruction of Kholinar vision, but that doesn't match the description of the Everstorm, more like a metaphorical wave of destruction in my opinion). Gavilar has also taken the Stormfather's visions in a much darker direction than Dalinar, trying to trigger the Desolation to unite Roshar rather than prevent it in the first place. It has long seemed to me that he may have been in contact with some sort of nefarious force that was manipulating him to its own ends. The fact that Gavilar has Voidlight, implies that he was at some point in contact with Ba-Ado-Mishram, who has the ability to provide Voidlight. Even if Gavilar was not being manipulated, he must have come in contact with Ba-Ado-Mishram to gain the Voidlight and perhaps learn about how she was imprisoned. So the question remains, where is she? The Fused are destroying a portion of the palace for a specific reason. I believe that the reason is that Ba-Ado-Mishram is imprisoned somewhere within or below the palace in Kholinar. Gavilar as a budding Bondsmith came into contact with her somehow and she spoke to him and gave him Voidlight. Gavilar may have intended to release her to trigger the Desolation or he may have been following her instructions to start it some other way. The question remains, why was she imprisoned beneath the palace? Well, when the ancient Radiants captured her, they needed to put her somewhere. Urirthiru is the obvious choice, however the city was failing by that point. The Radiants were abandoning it in droves. Where else could they put the prison? Perhaps in the capital city of Alethela, the ancestral homeland of the Radiants? Where else could have been better defended? When the Radiants fell, this knowledge was lost and the location of Ba-Ado-Mishram's prison was forgotten. The Fused focused on taking Kholinar first to ensure the return of their finest leader, who will become a real problem for humankind in the next few books.
  19. 27 points
    - Moash: I presume it's only usable by a human. - Vivenna: She specifically says it's a sword that she's chasing (and the person who took it): It might be Vasher, though her reaction if that's her actual quarry is a bit odd: While she says she's looking for him, she doesn't offer to go with them to find him, making me believe that he's not her primary target. - Cryptic: Not sure why it would go back to the Cognitive because Elhokar died. No reason to think that's the case (not sure the spren would have enough self-awareness to even do so). What would be crazy is if this was actually Tien's spren who ended up following Kaladin to Elhokar. - Elhokar's son: Magic. Probably literally, using the last bit of their connection to Kaladin's Windrunner powers. Being able to fly makes getting away somewhat easier. - 10th person: Almost certainly Venli, who was there but Dalinar didn't know about. - Szeth's hiring: AFAIK Dalinar already knows. Taravangian implies that he was forced to pre-emptively admit his objectives to Dalinar near the end because Szeth did or would in short order tell Dalinar what he knew about Taravangian. - Third black spren: Um, no idea on this one. I must have missed it. - How will fourth book be even better: by including more scenes with Jasnah.
  20. 27 points
    In the epilogue Hoid mentions that the man, to whom he entrusts the orphan girl, is named Cob. That is the name of Wax’s carriage driver
  21. 26 points
    Jasnah is confident bordering on arrogant about her intelligence. From what we’ve heard from others in the books, this does not seem unwarranted on her part. Does she need to hide this fact to make others feel better? I say it’s not a fatal character flaw, just like Adolin doesn’t need to hide the fact he is better at dueling than anyone else (he’s confident bordering on arrogant regarding his skill in that.) I also think Jasnah is a bit hot-headed and it can be easy to get under her skin in the right context; we see this in both her conversation with Kaladin and with Amaram. With Amaram she admits he got to her and she went for the lowest common denominator - calling his mother promiscuous. She knows this is bad, but she can’t help herself, so she seems to be aware of this flaw. Regarding the two specific instances you mentioned... Putting yourself in Jasnah’s shoes, she gets parachuted back into a world which has been drastically changed. She’s a princess and a powerful lighteyes, and she gets challenged by a darkeye who is essentially the leading Radiant in many people’s eyes, while she likely sees herself as the “founder” of the Radiants. (She likely has had her powers longer than anyone else, and is certainly the most skilled at her powers.) Kaladin also gets under a lot of people’s skin (Adolin, Shallan, almost every lighteyes ever); he’s incredibly assertive about his opinions and often in a caustic manner. Like Jasnah, he’s used to being obeyed. I was fine with how that interaction panned out, because they both seems to have a mutual understanding of respect at the end of it. With Shallan, Jasnah doesn’t know the character growth we’ve seen - when last she saw Shallan, she WAS Jasnah’s ward and scribe who was very defirential. Shallan doesn’t want to go back into that box (understandably), but I don’t judge Jasnah for thinking of her that way. We also see the negativity of these interactions mostly from Shallan’s perspective, and clearly she’s chafing at the suppression of her new found freedom. She did whatever she felt like in WoR, and she really liked that. Of course she’s not going to want a minder again. Jasnah isn’t perfect, and she isn’t always mature. If she didn’t have flaws, she wouldn’t be interesting! She is incredibly badass and no-nonsense. She’s brilliant, and as we saw in OB, she is not without humanity (Renarin!) I love having a strong, unapologetic female character, so I love Jasnah! ETA: I think had Jasnah killed Renarin I could see more strongly the Amaram/Mr T comparison, but in the end she’s not willing to go through will any means to justify an end. This is a huge difference between her and them.
  22. 25 points
  23. 25 points
    Just got back from the signing, and I now have enough blood flow to my fingers to type again. I was able to ask a few questions, hope you all enjoy the answers; he congratulated me for not getting RAFO'd, so I hope you all find these useful. Unfortunately I just know I'm going to think of half a dozen questions tomorrow when I can't ask them.
  24. 25 points
    Not only is he both a Surgebinder and a Voidbinder, but he isn't unique. It stands to reason that to have a bridge you need to have two ends. Now we do; Renarin and Venli.
  25. 25 points
    "I can lash if I want to, I can leave your friends behind. Because your friends don't lash and if they don't lash then their no friends of mine." - Windrunners 4th Ideal
  26. 25 points
    These are all good guesses, and likely very close to the truth but I worry that they sound rather callous. I agree that from a logical and efficiency standpoint Kaladin would be more effective if he "grew calluses" like his father recommends, but at the same time the fact that he cares so much for his people and the lost is his best leadership attribute. I would say in the real world there is no better characteristic to have in a leader/mentor, than to know that they truly care about you and your well-being. Perhaps it will be something like "I will honor the fallen" (in contrast to just mourning the fallen) or even just a re-phrasing of "I will place the lives of others before death, their journies before their destinations". I think this hits at a very important theme with Kaladin. Almost all of his "failures" as he sees them, were actually successes. Sure, he has seen the death of many under his protection, but almost all of them died with more purpose/hope/happiness than if he had not been protecting them. It was an end, but a better end. Tien knew his brother was there, his soldiers in Amaram's army felt hope and purpose in a pointless war, his bridgemen felt more alive than ever in a hopeless situation, Elkohar finally felt like a hero etc. Even Syl says she first sought Kaladin out because of how he made the soldiers under his command feel. Sizgil makes similar statements in WOK, at first he hated Kaladin for giving Bridge 4 false hopes of survival, but in time came to accept that even if Kaladin couldn't save Bridge 4 he was like a surgeon easing their suffering. I don't want Kaladin to stop caring, but him being able to see the effects of what he's doing on people's quality of life beyond just lived/died seems the most important revelation he can have.
  27. 24 points
    There's a passage near the end of the book that immediately bugged me from initial reading: The obvious interpretation is that there should be a representative of each of the Orders here. The KR that are represented for sure are: Bondsmith - Dalinar Windrunner - Kaladin Skybreaker - Szeth Edgedancer - Lift Lightweaver - Shallan Elsecaller - Jasnah Truthwatcher - Renarin These are the 7 Radiants Dalinar appears to be referring to, leaving Stoneward, Willshaper, and Dustbringer. Malata is pretty clearly not being counted here. We know there's actually a 10th that Dalinar isn't aware of at the battle (Venli). So the question becomes: which slots do Venli, Taln and Ash fit? (As an aside - I did consider the possibility that one of the existing KR are in the 'wrong spot', but the only candidate for which that seems potentially likely is Renarin; for this argument I'm going to neglect this as a likely possibility) Taln seems pretty obviously the Stoneward. I think Venli is probably the Willshaper, as the spren she's bonded to doesn't look like what I'd imagine an 'ashspren' to look like, and she fits the epigraph description of Willshapers pretty well (though it also says Willshapers are pretty varied in the first place). So that leaves Ash. While the most obvious Order to associate with Ash is Lightweavers, Shallan is already in that spot. We also know that most of the Heralds probably didn't join their own Orders: The wording is interesting because Nale doesn't say that none of the other Heralds became KR, but specifically that they didn't join their own Order. While this also would technically disassociate Taln with Stonewards, Nale allows for room for not knowing about it, or (more likely) the Heralds that did join the KR (including Nale) probably did so after the last Desolation (which obviously would mean Taln didn't have an opportunity). That said, she's probably not actually bonded to a spren at this point given Baxil's interlude: So presumably she doesn't actually have a Shardblade, but she thinks she could get one, which suggests she's not actively bonded (no Shardblade, but doesn't see any reason she couldn't use a dead one). I'm not sure if this would preclude her from having previously been bonded, however. We also know that Ash's behavior is pretty destructive with regards to images of herself, as well demonstrated in pretty much every scene with her. This is quite anomalous from what we'd expect from Lightweaver behavior (artists) but fits pretty well with what seems to be pretty typical Dustbringer attitude. Finally, her name is 'Ash'! Okay, so not really evidence, but it'd be rather ironically fitting. So my hypothesis is that Ash is the Dustbringer representative - either she was one, or she's going to be the 'main' Dustbringer of the series. The other possibilities are that it's not necessarily one of each Order (though it otherwise fits so well that it's hard to imagine otherwise) or Dalinar is looking for a pattern where there isn't one (obviously because she's not actually a Lightweaver...). It seems like an odd scene to throw in either of those cases, however.
  28. 24 points
    So, I've been going through these posts and haven't yet seen an updated list of the Knights Radiant and what we know of them. So I've made the attempt if theres another, or someone has other info that I didn't collect, I would love to hear about it. We currently know 10-13 out of 37 Oaths, counting the 1st Oath as 1 instead of 10 and not counting truths, which vary. Also taking into account certain theories regards spoken oaths. The Oaths/Ideals of the Knights Radiant tend to go in this type of order. 1st Oath - Fortifies bond with spren, one begins the path towards Knight Radiant. 2nd Oath - Not yet Radiant, but already Surgebinder fully bonded to spren. 3nd Oath - Become a Knight Radiant and receive your Shardblade for most Orders. 4th Oath - This is where most Knights Radiant end their progress, they possibly receive Shardplate and increase in powers on this level. 5th Oath - Ultimate Oath, only a few Knights Radiant reach this Oath, it's about becoming one with what your Order represents . Bondsmiths - These Knights use the Tension and Adhesion Surges and follow the Herald Ishar. There can only be 3 a time as they Bond the Siblings. The Stormfather of course, and possibly the Nightwatcher and Cusicesh. Gloryspren are also associated with Bondsmiths. Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. 2. I will unite instead of divide. i will bring men together. 3. I will take responsibility for what I have done. If I must fall, I will rise each time a better man.(Note: We have WoB via Hoidonalsium that Dalinar only spoke 1 Oath at the end of OB. He has only spoken his 3rd Ideal.) 4th and 5th Ideals still unknown. Known Bondsmiths - Dalinar Kholin. Bonded to the Stormfather. He has sworn the 3rd Ideal. Windrunners - These Knights use the Adhesion and Gravitation Surges and follow the Herald Jezrien. They Bond Honorspren. Windspren are also associated with Windrunners. Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. 2. I will protect those who cannot protect themselves. 3. I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right. 4th and 5th Ideals still unknown. Known Windrunners - Kaladin Stormblessed. Bonded to Sylphrena. He has sworn the 3rd Ideal. Teft. Honorsprens name is not known. He has sworn the 3rd Ideal. Lopen. Bonded to Rua. He has sworn the 2nd Ideal. Most of Bridge Four, some thirty or forty men and woman are squires. Many have spoken the 1st Ideal and some have probably spoken the 2nd including Skar and Drehy. Lightweavers - These Knights use the Illumination and Transformation Surges and follow the Herald Shalash. They Bond Cryptics. Creationspren are also associated with Lightweavers. Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. After the 1st Ideal, they speak truths instead of oaths. Known Lightweavers - Shallan Davar. Bonded to Pattern. Pretty sure we have WoB that she is one step ahead of Kaladin. So 4th Ideal. She spoke the truths that all Shardblades were flawed except for hers and that she had killed her mother at the end of WoR. Also, it is said that her other two truths were 'I'm scared" and 'I killed my father''. At least one possibly 3 squires including Vathah. It is suspected that Elhokar was about to Bond a Cryptic, which eventually left with Hoid. Elsecallers - These Knights use the Transformation and Transportation Surges and follow the Herald Battar. They Bond Inkspren. Logicspren are also associated with Elsecallers. Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. All other Ideals still unknown. Known Elsecallers - Jasnah Kholin. Bonded to Ivory. It is suspected that she has sworn the 4th or 5th Ideals based on her control. Edgedancers - These Knights use the Abrasion and Progression Surges and follow the Herald Vedeledev. They Bond Cultivationspren. Lifespren are also associated with Edgedancers(Info courtesy of PhineasGage). Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. 2. I will remember those who have been forgotten. 3. I will listen to those who have been ignored. 4th and 5th Ideals still unknown. Known Edgedancers - Lift. Bonded to Wyndle. She has sworn the 3rd Ideal. It is suspected that Adolin Kholin will eventually Bond Maya, who's Shardblade form has an Edgedancers glyph. Truthwatchers - These Knights use the Progression and Illumination Surges and follow the Herald Paliah. It is not known what spren Truthwatchers Bond, but it is stated in chapter 53 on page 525 of OB that their spren look like light on a surface after it reflects through something crystalline. It is currently unknown which other spren are associated with this Order. Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. Other oaths still unknown. Known Truthwatchers - Renarin Kholin. Bonded to Glys, a corrupted spren. His progression is currently unknown. He is technically only half Truthwatcher, the other half being from the Voidbinder side. Also, the orphanage caretaker Lift met(Called the Stump, courtesy of Rider of the Storms.) is supposed to be a Truthwatcher. It is confirmed by WoB that Ym would have been a Truthwatcher(Info courtesy of Aleksiel). Skybreakers - These Knights use the Gravitation and Division Surges and follow the Herald Nale. They Bond Highspren. It is currently unknown which other spren are associated with this Order. Known Oaths - 1. The Ideal of Radiance. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. 2. The second oath is the Ideal of Justice, an oath to seek and administer justice. They must Bond a spren before swearing the 3rd Ideal. 3. The 3rd oath is the Ideal of Dedication. They dedicate themselves to a cause or a person. This is where they learn Division. 4. The 4th is the Ideal of Crusade. They must choose a personal quest and complete it to the satisfaction of their spren. 5. The Ideal of Law. They must become law. Become truth. Known Skybreakers - The Herald Nale. His spren is currently unknown. He has sworn the 5th Ideal. Szeth. His spren is currently unknown. He has sworn the 3rd ideal. There is a full Order of perhaps a hundred Skybreakers, many who have sworn the 3rd and 4th Ideals, but none save Nale the 5th. Shallans brother Heleran was a member of the Skybreakers, but probably hadn't sworn the 2nd oath due to not having a living Shardblade of his own. Killing Amaram was probably his mission which would have allowed him to swear the 2nd. Dustbringers - These Knights prefer the term 'Releasers' and use the Division and Abrasion Surges and follow the Herald Chanarach. It is hinted that Dustbringers Bond Ashspren(Info courtesy of psc92). It is suspected that firespren are also associated with this Order. Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. All other oaths are currently unknown. Known Dustbringers - Malata. Bonded to Sparks(Info courtesy of Aleksiel). It is suspected that she has sworn at least the 2nd and possibly the 3rd Ideal. There is a theory that Shalash, Herald of the Lightweavers, Bonded an Ashspren, though this is still unconfirmed(Info courtesy of Rider of Storms). Willshapers - These Knights use the Cohesion and Transportation Surges and follow the Herald Kalak. It is suspected that they Bond Lightspren(per Capt Ico's daughter is Timbre theory). It is currently unknown which other spren are associated with this Order. Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. All other oaths are currently unknown. Known Willshapers - Venli of the Listeners. Bonded to Timbre. She has sworn the 1st Ideal. Stonewards - These Knights use the Cohesion and Tension Surges and follow the Herald Taln. It is suspected that they Bond Stonespren. It is currently unknown which other spren are associated with this Order. Known Oaths - 1. Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination. All other Ideals still unknown. It is suspected that an unknown oath Brandon wrote in a signed book "I will stand when others fall." is a Stoneward oath(courtesy of Calderis). Known Stonewards - The only Stoneward we have seen so far is the Herald Taln, if you count Heralds. It is unknown if he, or any other Herald, has sworn the oaths and Bonded spren like Nale. (Edited: Added secondary spren based on the suggestion of Erunion and info by Aleksiel. "I will stand when others fall." ) (Edited: Corrected the specifics of when Skybreakers Bond their spren. Courtesy of rjl.) (Edited: Added a list of Ideal progression at the beginning. Courtesy of Beatsmorn.)
  29. 24 points
    On my way to class this morning I was thinking how the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin triangle might be mirroring the Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar one, and how it would cheapen both plots. But then it hit me. What if it's just different enough to work. What if instead of Adolin=Gavilar/Shallan=Navani/Kaladin=Dalinar we have Adolin=Evi/Shallan=Dalinar/Kaladin=Navani. Indulge for a minute. Adolin like Evi is a genuinely good person but, in Ialai's word's about Evi, a bit vapid who try to help their partner the best they can (Evi consoling Dalinar and telling him that he doesn't have to be like a beast/ Adolin being, well, Adolin with Shallan). Shallan is the one pressured into the marriage by Jasnah and Navani, while Dalinar is pressured by friends and family, with the added bonus that they both have some kind of mental issue and they both idly fantasize about Kaladin and Navani respectively, but in the end the give in to the internal and external pressure. Regarding the connection between Kaladin and Navani I don't have much due to the lack of prespective from Navani, just that the odd looks she gave Dalinar vaguely fit with Kaladin and his actions, the fact that Navani has said, in The Way of Kings, how much she hated how Evi seemed to fit Balinar perfectly, a sentiment that Kaladin has also expressed in regards to Adolin and Shallan. So what does this hold for the future? Well, I think that Shallan will continue to ridicule Kaladin as Dalinar attempted to freeze out Navani, giving the wrong message (That he hated her.) and that Kaladin will make the safe choice regarding his romantic life, whether it'll contain a partner or not. So what do you think? I know that it doesn't exactly fit, but that's what I find most promising about it, is just similar enough as to not copy the other plot and different enough that it suggest that the endings won't allign (Adolin/Evi dying). Too far-fetched 0r not far-fetched enough or by the Almighty @DimChatz you'll grasp at all the straws and nothing actually fit, you just make it seem like the do?
  30. 24 points
    This is my Public Service Announcement- Taln is now my adopted character. He's the most honorable person on Roshar. Storms, he was still gracious to Ash. So if you have beef with Taln, you'll be going through the Steeldancer first. *cracks knuckles* on a slightly related topic, who else thinks it's dope that Naln bonded a Highspren? That's pretty cool. What is his surge binding efficiency like?
  31. 24 points
    So, if we are lucky, we will also have the audio from my recording too. However, there was a mixup and my phone vanished halfway through the signing. It was an honest mistake and I'll have it back soon, but the recording may not have survived the ordeal. However, I have some notes of my own and several inscriptions (with photos), so I'll post that. EDIT: removed a question/answer from an unpublished book, put pictures and text in spoilers (for ease of use and Oathbringer spoilers)
  32. 23 points
    I finished Oathbringer last night, and few choice quotes sprang out at me while reading. With some recent threads as jumping off points, I decided that we need to fundamentally reassess how we view the nature of the Surges, Surgebinders, and their placement within the Double Eye of the Almighty. The ten Surges we are familiar with reflect fundamental forces of the universe. Khriss, writing in "The Rosharan System" (Arcanum Unbounded hardback, p. 535), states: My contention is that while we have mostly been shown the Surges being applied in the Physical Realm, they each have powers and applications that are unique to the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms, as well. There is precedent for this within the Cosmere, as each of the Allomantic and Feruchemical metals can be categorized according to its effects on the Physical, Cognitive, or Spiritual aspects of the user/target: Iron, Steel, Tin, and Pewter are Physical; Zinc, Brass, Copper, and Bronze are Cognitive; and Chromium, Nicrosil, Aluminum, and Duralumin are Spiritual. There is a fourth category that may overlap here, but which feels like an artifact of Scadrial's system being dependent on the number sixteen -- sixteen Shards with sixteen Intents, sixteen allomantic metals, etc. Dividing that number into four groups of four is nice and tidy, and makes numerological sense in a way that they don't on Roshar, where Three, Nine, and Ten (especially) are given precedence. But I digress. While speaking to Dalinar in OB, chapter 65, the Stormfather says the following: We have, at this point, seen multiple Physical uses of adhesion -- in WoK, Kaladin scales a chasm wall by adhering stones to the surface and using them as handholds; in OB, Dalinar similarly uses a spray of Stormlight against a wall to adhere a chair to its surface and climb into a ventilation shaft. We're familiar with this usage. What we have yet to see until this scene is this specific naming convention (Spiritual Adhesion), and the revelation of a new set of abilities that applies to a person's Spiritual aspect. I think the existence of “Spiritual Adhesion” indicates that what we’ve seen before is “Physical Adhesion,” and implies that we may also see “Cognitive Adhesion.” If each of these abilities is different, it may imply why we seem to see a degree of fluidity in how Orders who share Surges utilize those Surges: if Jasnah and Shallan both utilize Transformation, but Jasnah excels at Physical Transformation and Shallan at Spiritual Transformation, then their approach may be completely different (and may lead to the development of different resonances as well). What appears to be certain characters' penchants for particular facets of their abilities may not just be a quirk of that character, but may be a fundamental aspect of their Order as well. Below, I will list the three Realmatic variations of each Surge, as well as my best guess for how they function. Note that the following are merely some possible expressions of those powers, and not the only possible applications of the Surges in each realm. That is, Spiritual Adhesion has been depicted as being used to share language, but it could be possible to use Adhesion on the Spiritual plane for other, similar effects. Adhesion Physical: Stick two objects together Cognitive: Make lots of disparate people start to view themselves as a group? Whatever Dalinar did at Thaylenah to bring the buildings back together (but that might be Tension). Spiritual: Create a connection to another person’s Spirit, so that you can comprehend their language. Gravitation Physical: Basic and Reverse Lashings. Cognitive: Spiritual: Division Abrasion Physical: Change the strength of friction between two objects Cognitive: Spiritual: Transportation Progression Physical: accelerate the growth of plants Cognitive: heals a person’s body so that it matches their own Cognitive Ideal of themselves Spiritual: Illumination Physical: Create complex illusions, using a Memory as a base, and the manipulation of the electromagnetic field. Cognitive: Spiritual: Remotely view events happening around Roshar (Shallan sketches an image of Szeth’s assassination of the King of Jah Keved, an image depicting “...a lavish room with a thick, ornamented rug, swords on the walls. A long dining table, set with a half eaten meal. And a dead man in fine clothing, laying face-first on the floor, blood pooling around him.”) This is presumably where the “Watch” in Truthwatcher comes from as well. (Spiritual) Transformation Physical: Utilize Stormlight to transform the spren of an object into another object (Soulcasting) Cognitive: Manipulate the spren of an object and force it to appear in the Cognitive Realm (Manifesting) Spiritual: Transform a person by giving them aspects of their most idealized Spiritual form. (No name, but performed by Shallan multiple times in WoR). Transportation Cohesion Tension Physical: Cognitive: Whatever Dalinar did at Thaylenah to bring the buildings back together (but that might be Adhesion). Obviously there are a lot of blank spots in the list. Part of that is that we haven’t been granted a viewpoint from a representative of each Order using their own abilities. The other is that some of these abilities are probably mislabeled, or are just Resonances (as opposed to being a direct result of using a Surge). What do you think.
  33. 23 points
    If each person in Kharbranth married a ton of people not from Kharbranth, you could save the entire world.
  34. 23 points
    @SLNC I've never been a fan of the "not broken enough" argument. Kaladin and Shallan are extreme examples. So is Dalinar. Adolin has easily been through as much as Renarin. Just because he puts on a happy face for the world doesn't make his life "peachy." He lost his mother. Thousands of men at the Tower. Watched his father descend into a drunken mess. He snapped and killed Sadeas, which while it hasn't had social consequences, has still had mental ones. If he's not broken enough, then neither is Lopen, Lopen seems happy too.
  35. 23 points
    Basic moto of the site: We can't be wrong if we predict every single possibility!
  36. 23 points
    Completely agree. I'm a big fan of Sanderson's work, and one of the things I love is that he writes a lot of great and varied female protagonists, which is sadly STILL something of a rarity in the genre. But we've now had Elantris, Warbreaker, Shadows of Self, Bands of Morning, Words of Radiance, and now Oathbringer where the success of arranged marriage is actually a major plot point. And yeah, I'm not a female reader, but as a feminist this is starting to bother me. The whole Laral parable in particular seemed a little off. That exchange got almost as much focus as Kaladin learning he had a brother! Seriously? Why was it important to emphasize that she was just peachy marrying an old man (someone who by rights is basically a murderer)?! The more I think about it the more it irritates me to be honest. A related issue is how female many characters end up "settling down" with literally the first person they have ever been in a relationship with, even when it is not actually an arranged marriage. Siri and Susebron. Sarene and Raoden. Vin and Elend. Laral and Lord Piece-of-rust. Shallan and Adolin. Each one of these is essentially a Disney princess storyline, where the romantically naive and virginal young girl marries royalty. I actually cannot think of a single female protagonist's love interest (meaning married or explicitly in a romantic relationship by the end) in the cosmere books that is not a nobleman, prince, or god-king... But back to Oathbringer. The romances here bother me because they seem to more blatantly peddle the whole arranged marriage = good trope, in a way that feels a little disingenuous. The Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin dynamic is set up as the classic love triangle. You've got the (again romantically naive, virginal) young woman choosing between the passionate, dangerous, "bad-boy" option, and the loving, romantic, "safe" option. This is clearly set up by the fact that Veil, Shallan's "street" persona with "terrible taste in men" keeps focusing on Kaladin and his wildness/passion. Adolin is described as the guy who "knows the real her" and always makes her feel safe. Classic trope. Except...that makes absolutely zero sense here. How is Kaladin the "dangerous" option? His biggest character flaw (after "getting over" his completely rational hatred of an oppressive class structure) is literally not being able to stop himself from trying to protect everybody! That and he is grumpy (mostly as the result of, you know, clearly battling chronic depression). He is the only character of the main protagonists to have a serious moral crisis about killing the Singers BEFORE it is revealed that, whoops, humans are the Voidbringers after all. Adolin, the "nice guy," has killed Parshendi without remorse for years, and still doesn't seem to have much of a problem with it in this book. But still we have this repeated reference to Kaladin's "passion" which is obviously meant to parallel the reveal that Odium is the god of Passions, and sets Kaladin up metaphorically as the "dangerous" choice in the love triangle, when in fact Adolin almost certainly has a MUCH higher body count and seems to feel less bad about it too. He also passionately murders Sadeas basically right after Kaladin makes a vow to protect people according to what is right and not according to his passions. And aside from the amount of murder that each guy has done, we also know that Adolin has courted a comically large number of women in the warcamps, and it is implied that at least a few of those relationship ended because of him essentially cheating on the woman (or not treating them very well in one way or another). This is written off as him just not having found the right person yet. Kaladin, meanwhile, is implied to have been in exactly one relationship, which ended because she moved away and he felt it was his duty to stay in the army and protect people. My point is not that Shallan should end up with Kaladin. I actually think it would have been awesome if the three of them were just close friends. I think this would have been much more in character for Shallan, frankly. My point is just that the triangle was written in such a way that there needed to be an excuse for why Adolin, the arranged spouse, was the "right" or "safe" choice. In other words, there couldn't be two viable choices that Shallan was legitimately torn between. One (Kaladin) had to be artificially presented as the "wrong" choice based in Veil's "horrible taste in men." In essence, it robs Shallan of agency because it frames it as though there is only one "genuine" choice for her. The reason given for her not to choose Kaladin could frankly apply equally well if not more so to Adolin. But this is ignored in favour of what is more or less the classic Disney princess ending. I'll point out again that I love the actual characters involved. I just feel like in this situation they were forced into romantic archetypes and tropes in which they really, really didn't fit. And it does seem like this was done to fit into a broader trend that, as @firegazer said, is a little bit troubling.
  37. 23 points
    Adolin lets her be her. He doesn't need or want her to be anything else. That's everyone's reaction to Kaladin. It's not Shallan specific. It's what Kaladin is. Sure he's a protector, but even more than that, he's a leader. He inspires others to be better than they were. This will be IMO where his next Ideals will go.
  38. 22 points
    Discussion of intent has come up quite a bit lately, so I feel it's about time to formally put down this theory. I've listed many of the points I'll make here elsewhere, but I've never strung them together in one place (excluding Discord). Section 1: Origins To begin, we must address the Shattering. We know that a group consisting of at least 16 people somehow killed a divine entity, and split it's power among themselves. Each of these pieces has an intent which demands the power they hold be used in certain ways. I believe that these intents are quite literally Adonalsium torn asunder. I believe that Adonalsium had no Vessel. The sheer amount of investiture that comprised the sum of all shards means that when it developed a mind it easily surpassed sentience, and became a sapient being. When a Shard is splintered, the Vessel is no longer holding the power and it is separated from the mind that guided it, whether that Vessel was killed or merely gave up the power. This was not an option for Adonalsium. It was the power. When it was Shattered, the mind was shattered with it, and the remnants of that mind became the intents that drive the Shards we know. Section 2: Interpretation The intents of the shard are, by this idea, far more malleable than is often stated. This is speculation, and I base it largely on Ati, and I see no real way to confirm or deny this until we see a single shard change hands and be held long enough to express its intent. A mind is needed to guide the Shard. The Vessels can alter the way that that power is made manifest. My view on this, is that the names of the Shards that we know is not the pure intent of the Shards themselves, but the interpretation of that core concept by their Vessel. Much of this grew out of my head canon for Ati. In the letters between Hoid and Frost we are told that Ati was a "kind and gentle man," and yet he become a monster that reveled in the death and suffering of all. I believe that the kind and gentle man viewed Ruin as a monstrous force that needed to be contained, and Leras agreed with him. They worked together to attempt to contain this immeasurable force. It was Ati's belief that was his undoing. His interpretation of the force of Ruin as monstrous and destructive created the very monster that he feared. His interpretation forced the Shard to manifest in the way he believed, and this was so at odds with his nature that it overcame and consumed him. But a Shard still requires a mind to guide it. So while his interpretation of Ruin subsumed his personality, it was still shaped by the belief that caused it to be so violent and sadistic. Sazed in contrast views Ruin as a natural force. I don't think he would become that creature even if he held only Ruin. For a hypothetical example of what I mean, look at Vin. She did not hold the Shard of Preservation long enough for us to know what the outcome would be. Considering her immediate actions, I propose that she could have been called "Salvation" or "Protection." Shifting the focus away from stasis, to "preserving" life. It is a drastically different interpretation of a concept that exists at the core of both words. The protection of what is. Due to this interpretation, I don't believe that any attempt to categories the Shards is possible until we see them with different Vessels and are able to try and determine what the actual core concept of each is, and what was actually taken from Adonalsium itself. So perhaps Rayse is not lying, and Passion truly is the core intent of what he holds. The name Odium is known though, and regardless of what he states, I think it is the intent he has made manifest.
  39. 22 points
    So I've been focusing a lot lately on Shallan and Adolin, but I was doing some rereading and came across some text that I want to bring up concerning Kaladin and his decision making. At the end of the book, when Kaladin is reflecting on things while also looking down upon our soon to be newlyweds, we see him performing an action during his contemplation. The full scene: So, there is a lot going on in this very small scene. But the thing I want to focus on is the decision that Kaladin is making here, and how it is very much symbolically tied to another decision he has made via the stone. The last time in Oathbringer we saw him make a decision related to his romantic feelings towards someone, guess what was present? So in the scene with Tarah, Kaladin is confronted with making a choice that he is not capable of making, because of the weight he is carrying around, symbolized by the rock that reminds him of his brother. For him, at this point, it's not even a choice, because he is incapable of setting down the burden he has chosen. I think that I'm safe in saying that most of us would agree that Tarah's last physical words to him are a good clue as to the thing that Kaladin has to accept as part of his next oath and progression for him. He even seems to know what it is, later, and is unable to commit to it. I find it interesting that Brandon chose to tie these two scenes together with this symbolism. In the scene concerning Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin is relieved that Shallan has seemingly made her choice, because it relieves him of the burden of having to make one himself. He gets to keep carrying his rock. In both scenes, Kaladin is confronted with a challenge to prioritizing his feelings for the living (in the form of women he loves), or to dwell on his past failures and the dead left in their wake. Making the decision he did with Tarah was not right for his growth and acceptance of himself, and that scene is symbolically tied to him making the "decision" about Shallan and Adolin, which is also not right for his growth and personal acceptance. I find it interesting symmetry that both Shallan and Kaladin's progression (or their abrupt halting of it) is so very neatly tied up with romantic feelings. Shallan allows Adolin to decide who she should be, and what she should do. She thinks the choice is hers, while simultaneously forcing the opinions of the other facets of her personality to the back. She gets to stay right where she is, because facing those other facets of herself scare her, she doesn't want to move forward. Similarly Kaladin refuses to make a choice, and instead finds comfort in giving up that choice to someone else, because it allows him to stay where he is. He didn't feel resignation either. Instead he felt ... agreement? He feels agreement because this is also what he wants, to not make a decision, to not have to act on this, because he's afraid of stepping forward. Contrast what he says in that chapter with what he says earlier in the book: I don't believe for a second that Kaladin could have some of the most pronounced and detailed feelings that we've seen from his POV yet here, and then turn around and wave those away as simply "I felt ...something. A lightening of my burdens". During the scene on the roof when Shadolin are making their passion for each other known, Kaladin is still trying to work out his feelings for her, and he decides, yet again, that they are less than what they are. Not only because she is already "taken". Not only because of his respect for her betrothed. But because it allows him to continue to hide, to remain static, to do what he has always done. Shallan and Kaladin are both making choices, or not making choices, that leave them in a static state, unable to progress further on their own respective paths of Radiancy. And these choices are both wrapped up in denying the feelings they have for each other. If that isn't an indication that they are not done, then I don't know what is. You know, sometimes I wonder just how people who were happy with the romantic ending at the end of OB could NOT see this stuff. Then I think, perhaps, Brandon is happy with this state of affairs, as it means he is doing something right, hiding it so well, that a large chunk of the readership are going to be primed and ready for his next big surprise for them. ...then again, it could also be I who is the dupe...
  40. 22 points
  41. 22 points
    I just want to talk about this a bit, because after OB, I really dislike Jasnah Kholin. She has never been a favorite of mine, but I have found her to be alright. She has some good moments in WoK. In Oathbringer, that wasn't really the case (she has cool scenes here too, in the Battle of Thaylen City) since I found her to be a straight up douchebag. Here goes why: 1. The Voidbringer talk in Part 2. Here Jasnah wants to condemn the Heralds to eternal torture as opposed to Kaladin, who wants to spare them. Jasnahs drastic methods aren't why I didlike her (I like both King T and Amaram). What I dislike is her being a total douchebag to Kaladin when he disagrees. She quickly starts insulting him, and talks down to him. That is what I don't like. Granted Kaladin asks if she is insane when hearing about her plan, but I don't really think of that as an insult, but more a strong objection. Jasnah instantly starts insulting Kaladin, suggesting that he lacks logic, and that he isn't grown-up. 2. Her treatment of Shallan. Shallan has become an accomplished Radiant, who has saved the entire Alethi force, found Urithiru, and fought off an Unmade. Jasnah makes her a scribe. I understand that Jasnah is more experienced, that she can teach, and that Shallan needs to learn things, but giving her scribe duty is stupid. For one, it shows that Jasnah considers Shallan to be below her in status. Two, Jasnah should be able to figure out that Shallan might start to feel rebellious if she is treated like a random servant. Three, Shallan deserves to be treated as more of an equal, after all she has done. In short, I cant help but read Jasnah as someone who is convinced of her own brilliance. She thinks that she knows best, and that her ideas should be followed, while looking down on others who lack experience, or disagrees with her. She is domineering and self-important. Her aura of "I know best" is hugely bothering, and her borderline refusal to look at things from other peoples perspective is a glaring flaw. I also have a quick question. Jasnahs tactics do lack emphaty, and when suggesting that they kill the Heralds, Jasnah even says that it is better to sacrifice a few to save many. How come that everyone loves her anyway, but hates the likes of King T and Amaram? Where lies the difference? So, is there anyone who can explain/defend Jasnah? I'd love to hear peoples thoughts about her.
  42. 22 points
    I was actually really not a fan of the potential that "triangle" had to lead to super stupid decisions and conflict in that trio... but I really liked the way it resolved. It resolved in a way that involved Shallan making a choice, realizing that Adolin understood -- and where he didn't understand, he accepted. That's something that Shallan has always needed, is someone who understands where possible, acknowledges that it's not always possible, and accepts her as she is. He's encouraging, but doesn't feel the need to try to "fix" everything for her, which would be a major problem from her perspective. The way it turned out made the whole thing a point of growth for all three; in short, I felt it was actually healthy, which is the exact opposite of about every other "love triangle" you see in fiction (and the reason I usually hate them).
  43. 21 points
    I thought it might be fun to write our own scenes for the 1 year time gap between Oathbringer and book 4. Here's mine. It will of course be a Lift scene, because, it's mine! Please add your own. "Okay, it's been three weeks since Thaylenah, you've all had a chance to begin your assignments, and I need to know what progress you've made. Captain Kal..." Dalinar began. "Umm..." interrupted Lift. "Yes Lift?" asked Dalinar "Maybe we should break, you know, for lunch and stuff." suggested Lift. "Lift, we literally just ate breakfast. Right now. Shallan is still chewing hers, and the plates have not been cleared off the table." replied Dalinar. "Yeah" said Lift. "Yeah what?" asked Dalinar. "Yeah, we just ate breakfast" replied Lift. "Okay, I'm glad we sorted that out. Captain Kaladin, could you..." Dalinar began again. "What about lunch?" Lift asked hopefully. Dalinar sighed audibly "Renarin, could you please ask the kitchen staff to send Lift some lunch. Captain Kaladin, how is the training progressing with the new Wind runner recruits?" "Unfortunately sir, there have been some injuries. Nothing life threatening, but a number of recruits will be out of action for several weeks." replied Kaladin. "What happened?" enquired Dalinar. "The Lopen happened." Kaladin responded unenthusiastically. "He thought it would be a good idea to train adhesion by sticking new recruits to the ceiling and seeing who stays up the longest. Apparently it didn't occur to him that the tower has stone storming floors." "Fine." said Dalinar, visibly annoyed now. "We'll move on. Shallan, how is the training of your lightweaver squires progressing." "Umm, not much progress yet. We... I mean... I... umm..." Shallan blushed furiously and glanced at Adolin furtively before mumbling something inaudible. Dalinar rolled his eyes, "Right, well, just don't forget the whole apocalypse thing, okay? Szeth, any progress on the negotiations with Nale? Will he agree to join our side?" "Of course Dalinar-son-god. You have said it must be." replied Szeth. "Damnation, I told you a hundred times. I am not the son of god! Honor isn't even god!" shouted Dalinar. "Of course Dalinar-son-god, if you say it, it cannot be otherwise." replied Szeth characteristically dispassionately. Dalinar took a deep breath and ploughed ahead "So Nale has agreed to come to our side?" "Not yet Dalinar-son-god." replied Szeth. "But you literally JUST said he was coming to our side!" exploded Dalinar. "Yes, you have told me this is true." replied Szeth. "Did you let it back out?" asked Lift. "Let what back out?" asked Dalinar, perplexed. "The red angry thing. You're kind of red and angry. You're old though. Old people are often red and angry. I can't tell." Lift replied, stabbing another pancake with her shardfork. Dalinar slumped back in his chair. "I give up, we're not getting anywhere here. I supposed I can take some solace in the fact that your collective efforts make my attempts at diplomacy look storming inspired by god." "This is only right Dalinar-son-god." replied Szeth, earning a further glare. "Tomorrow, same time. I want to hear actual progress then!" said Dalinar dismissively. "WAIT!" shouted Lift. "Yes Lift?" asked Dalinar. "What about dinner?" she enquired.
  44. 21 points
    Wow, was rereading part 3 and noted a disturbing bit of dialogue in chapter 74 : “Mmmm … Why are you so happy about feeding so few?” “Feeding these few is something we can do.” “So is jumping from a building,” he said—frank, as if he didn’t understand the sarcasm he used. “But we do not do this. You lie, Shallan.” “Veil.” “Your lies wrap other lies. Mmm…” He sounded drowsy. Could spren get drowsy? “Remember your Ideal, the truth you spoke.” Of course Shallan then went on with her day as if nothing disturbing just happened. Pattern seeming oblivious to his use of sarcasm as opposed to satisfied humming which implies an actual lack of understanding of both her simple statement and what sarcasm is, talking drowsily ... Is it too late to jump in the "Pattern is dying" bandwagon ? For the people looking for similarities with Syl's case, how's this for you ?
  45. 21 points
    As we all know, the epigraphs from Part Three are recordings left behind by ancient Radiants. Well... I did some work on that. Assuming that the gemstone that was used corresponds to the Order of the Radiant, here's the list of speakers: Wait! There's more! Some of the gems were in the same drawers, and as such are numbered. Here's a compilation of these two cases: Drawer 1-1, first, second and third zircon, Elsecaller: Drawer 30-20, first, second, third, fourth, fifth and final AND a particularly small emerald, Truthwatcher: I also mapped out the drawers and their gems, but found no pattern there.
  46. 21 points
    I posted a very similar comment in another thread but as it applies here, I'll make it again. I believe the Radiants made the shattered plains with their powers capable of destroying a world. Going into Oathbringer, the mystery I was most eager to find an answer for was what caused the Recreance. I was thrilled when I found out the answer would be revealed in this book. But when I finally read the cause my reaction was like "Really? Is that really enough to cause all the knights to break their oaths?" While having the power to destroy the world is a huge concern, it is also very controversial as seen in our world in debates over gun laws and nuclear weapon restrictions. While I can see some Radiants saying, "no one should have the power to destroy the world," I imagine other Radiants replying "But we'll use our powers wisely as we have done for hundreds of years." The argument so far doesn't seem strong enough to convince everyone in 9 orders to break their oaths and kill their spren. I feel like something more is needed, even more than Honor's rantings at the end of his days. What could really change the minds of many Radiants is a terrible demonstration of their powers such as destroying a whole country. Now the argument changes from "we need to break our oaths because otherwise we might break the world" to "we need to break our oaths because we are breaking the world."
  47. 21 points
    I really liked the book, but the romance stuff felt off to me, and it took me a while to really chew on why. This is not the first, the second, or even the third time that Sanderson has done the exact same romantic plotline: boy meets girl, they enter into an arranged marriage, there are potential troubles in there, but in the end they both discover the arranged marriage unexpectedly works perfectly for them. In point of fact, we got the same thing from Laral in this book too, so that's TWICE that female characters have decided they actually like their situation IN ONE BOOK. The first time I read it, I thought it was a refreshingly different take than what you normally see in the media -- i.e. asking the question 'in societies where marriages are based on factors other than love, can you still make them positive relationships.' But at this point, the feminist in me is honestly starting to get deeply irritated with this weird idealization of arranged marriages. Once was interesting. This many times is really starting to bother me as a female reader. It takes me out of immersion because I have such a distasteful knee-jerk backlash to it that colours the way I feel about all characters involved, no matter how much I otherwise like them as characters. I don't know if that makes sense, or even if it's a feeling that extends to other readers at all (I might well be unique and everyone else has zero problems with this).
  48. 21 points
    Adolin reviving his Maya is the only way I accept him becoming a Knights Radiant
  49. 20 points
    Nah, give them to Drought for being nice enough to let me write it. It was fun to get to talk about how I died
  50. 20 points
    Dalinar's arc was fantastic. I love his new oath too, those are words to live by. The moment that made me tear up the most was the return of Taln. After finding out he was tortured for 4,500 years the guy was happy. Happy that he bought humanity so much time. Taln, the truest hero in our world. I'm not a fan of where Shallan's character has gone. "Multiple Personalities" might make an interesting plot device, but it's a very contentious area of psychology. After how realistically Kaladin's recurring depression, Teft+Dalinar's substance abuse disorder and Shallan's prior avoidance mechanisms and panic disorder were displayed, I'm rather sad to see Shallan adopting a Hollywood-ized psychological disorder. Also, if she's set on Adolin now, it would be nice if Shallan stopped being unpleasant to Kaladin. She doesn't even have the thin justification that she's teasingly flirting with Kaladin anymore, at this point she's basically just bullying the poor guy. He's stoic enough to not call her out on it, but the teasing is so one sided at this point that someone needs to tell Shallan to stop acting that way.
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