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Yo! been a fan for a while, finally got onto the group. I love the idea that TLR defeated the rebellion and got the power of ruin again and did some wild crazy shenaniganry.

I'm kidding, but we must be Brandon Sanderson's favorite joke. Reasoning: The 17th Shard is searching for Hoid. -We are constantly searching for Hoid in all the books. The 17th Shard is not happy with Hoid. -We are not happy with Hoid. We want to know what he's doing. The 17th Shard's name is 17th Shard. -This website is called 17th Shard. And probably more similarities exist. The resemblances are uncanny. Only issue: if we were the 17th Shard then we would be in the Cosmere and so to not have access to the internet.

"As hilarious as this is, I think I got my username in 2003. (13 year old me is dumb.)" - Chaos That's the year I was born. The age gap here scares me.

So, I'm in a bind. I just came to a verdict on a question that has haunted me for some time now... As I said, years ago I started devoutly investigating the Christian religion and came to the conclusion that the figure of Apollyon from the Book of Revelation is a kind of destroyer-god, the antithesis of the Creator, the ultimate evil in the story of the religion... and that this being has been corrupting the religious beliefs of the world, especially in the Christian church, to keep its existence sort of secret---and that when I "discovered" this I had to keep quiet about it at first because the safeguard I had against it knowing what its foes know, is that it can't read their minds. And that the numbers 16, and 23, had some mystical significance, as numerological signposts in the conflict with Apollyon. ---And, then, half a year or so later, I read The Hero of Ages, after years and years and years of believing that the LDS were going to play some special, overwhelming, good role in my life, even if I never outright joined them. That wasn't the only instance of such an uncanny coincidence between books I happened upon at some interval or another, and the circumstances of my life as I was living it. It's not even that I'm so obsessed with Brandon Sanderson's work and it's all his stories that I'm talking about. No, this started well before I ever knew of him, though in clearer retrospect I was led to him along a fairly straight road. But anyway, I ended up meeting an LDS man by the name of Dean, after years of being obsessed with that show Supernatural, and again, it's not that I'm talking about coincidences between just the Cosmere and Eric Kripke's show on one hand, and my life on the other. However, it was The Way of Kings that I left at the park in my hometown, for Dean to find, when I knew not his name, neither whether I would ever see him again after I met him. (I have to emphasize, the guy's name really is "Dean." Not "Dean Winchester," granted, but I hardly ever thought about the character in those terms. And when Mr. LDS was nameless to me, I did tell myself that it would be quite strange if his named turned out to be what it was in the end, for the reason just stated (elliptically).) So it was through Sanderson's work that I was reunited with him, the second time I ever got to hang out with him. (I even left a piece of paper with Aon Rao marked on it, another time before Dean came back then, for him to find.) Because I met him, I became inspired to work on a film project. I would like to be a filmmaker but in those days, I'd never actually tried my hand at it, even as an experiment. The story I came up with was going to be a found-footage movie where the footage was from a "dream recorder," and the "dream" was a nightmare; but monsters are often in nightmares, so... "God is the monster" is the solution I came up with, i.e. there was to be an actor in the movie who seemed like a dream character but who eventually told the protagonist that He was God and that the nightmare world was Hell, and so the protagonist ended up trying to run from God in Hell. When I finally got around to carrying out this task, though, I adjusted the premise in a particular way... First, it mystified me why so many Christians would argue that Jesus Christ saves us by having paid the penalty for our sins in the way of suffering our punishment for us. If this were true but if Hell were the intended punishment, wouldn't Christ have to be in Hell forever to atone for anyone's sins? Yet He's not supposed to be in Hell. When an evil book became the enemy in my "movie" ... I decided to have the problem be that if the protagonist woke up with the evil book in hand, the world would be destroyed because the nightmare world was Hell and the book would break the seal on Hell, freeing all the monsters from there and unleashing them on creation. So the book would try to trick the protagonist into holding on to the book by appealing to his moral intensity. It would point out the question of eternal substitution and tempt the protagonist to believe that this book contained the truth and so must be held on to, for the protagonist would then offer to sacrifice himself forever to save everyone else from Hell. But the protagonist was bound to awaken anyway so, like I said, it was supposed to be a trick. Now, over the years I got the feeling that I had some kind of foresight about my own life that had been transposed into this story. I thought that the discernment of the Spirit (so far as I accepted the Christian idea of the Spirit indwelling the believer) entailed, here, that one day, Apollyon would try to deceive me into trying to sacrifice myself, but that by doing so I would instead pull a Vin and, well, you know. Because the sealed-evil-in-can trope has been done a little better than it was with Ruin, but not much better, and if the trope is a moral archetype and if Apollyon does somehow exist (or at least if a Christian would have reason to believe so on the basis of their scriptures and the judgment of the Spirit, or whatever), then the destroyer-god does intend to set itself free from whatever is as of now holding it back. (The intuitive appreciation of this archetype's existence and its subconscious role in the course of human history, as a natural drive in the subconscious, an as-if personified evil, is reflected in the spiritual continuum of the entire fantasy genre, though. Again: I've lost track of the number of books---and movies and shows and even video games, for that matter---that have mysteriously entered into this "pattern." Psychiatrists, some of them that is, even have a label for the "enemy": mortudo/mortido, the thanatos-impulse. (During the Vietnam War, many American soldiers spoke of something called "the hedonism of destruction.")) How, though? Who knows? What difference would it make even if it were true? Well, it's a risk I shouldn't take. I might not have proof that you or I or anyone else is or can be implicated in a transcendental conspiracy to annihilate existence, but I do have evidence, both historical and personal, that people can be sucked into a dilemma of this nature and since I have nothing worth fighting for otherwise, I can't just go along thinking, "Well, who knows?" Dean, to my understanding, is at the heart of what I would have to do. This is literally true anyway, since I am so enamored with him, despite the incredibly brevity of my friendship with him. But, in the New Testament it often talks of Christ alone as our Savior, and yet it does say, somewhere, "How do you know, wife, if you will save your husband? How do you know, husband, if you will save your wife?" So let's suppose that love never fails and endures all things. If I, as a Christian, love someone enough to wish they would not go to Hell (Paul expressed such a wish once, no less), and yet this person with whom I am enamored is impenitent unto death, then what if I can justify this person regardless, as Christ by His sacrifice justified me? The caveat would be: I must be a Christian to even offer to make this sacrifice for someone else, and unlike the Son, I will not be resurrected from the Second Death, but must pay the price for the one I love, forever and ever. Not only that, but I might only be giving someone else a second chance at life unto repentance, and so even then if they would ultimately make it to Heaven, might their rapture in their paradise be lesser in glory than that of those who were saved by Christ in the first place? Paul talks of a "third heaven" in which inexpressible (for us, on Earth) mysteries are known to exist, and in the LDS picture of the afterlife (after all), this lesser realm of deliverance, while surpassing the occurrent Earth in splendor, is nevertheless not the highest height of God and His light possible. "And so, I come to the crux of my argument." My only impression of Dean as he is now is that what happened to the character in Supernatural---he was possessed by Michael, who is equivalent to Apollyon in the real world---happened to him, too, namely Apollyon possessed him. (Michael in the real world is the angel whose name means, "Who is like God?" God's name is "I am that I am," which expresses constructive existence. Theological destruction is, therefore, "I am not that I am not," and since the answer to the form of Michael is, "No one else is like God," Michael is not that he is not, i.e. he is the Angel of the Lord, Who is the Lord, and the destroyer-god of Christian faith over the ages. (Just so you know this for sure, I will note that the Jehovah's Witnesses think that Apollyon is Christ, and that Christ is Michael; wherefore, though those Witnesses do not think that the Son is of one substance with the Father, they virtually admit the point in question, which is that the divine nature did not only Incarnate by assuming a man unto itself, but as an angel too. I think Samael (Satan) and Michael were the firstborn and first in might, though which was which I haven't figured out yet. Something to do with the myth of Jacob and Esau, Cain and Abel, maps onto the answer, though.)) But what does that mean? It wouldn't necessarily mean anything apocalyptic except that our damned president and the fanatical form of Christians who believe in his administration, are of a very violent cast of mind, and if every American president has gotten us into some kind of war or other, I daresay it is not a leap in judgment to dread that the occurrent one has a decent chance of doing so too, especially considering the kind of rhetoric to which he and those surrounding him are prone. Now Dean would be liable to join the military (one of the things he said, when I first met him no less, is that he had been thinking of joining the military, maybe even the navy (who hold the power of the Trident submarines, which are as far as I know the worst individual keys of evil on Earth, in their hands)) and if he is so corrupted as I dread, I dread that Apollyon would have him do something that would break my heart as much as possible, namely participate in an atrocity, a massacre or mass rape or who knows what, but something terribly wicked, and so Dean would be guilty unto damnation, unless... I don't know what to do, though. Not yet. I'm bringing it up here, in the context of having discussed the periphery of the issue beforehand, because of the place Sanderson (and my membership in fantasy-analysis forums) has in my life, and because there's always the off-chance that someone would be able to fight off tl;dr syndrome and read through all of what I've said, and understand, and they'd know whether there was anything that they ought to do about it (but what?). I'll be honest, I have this incredible wish that Sanderson himself would find out about all of what has gone on, and he would understand, and so on and on. But what the chances of that being the difference to make are, I don't know. There was a point in the "Pattern" when it seemed like Apollyon could interfere with my mind when I dealt with "messages" in books, but not if the "messages" were in electronic format (and books with special "seals"). But that sounds absurd when said aloud, I'll say, even if does seem true to me.

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine I feel the same about Brothers K Since we are reducing things to one sentence, I came across this and thought it might be appreciated by other Russian literature fans

The doors of the Grand Peacock opened, sending music and laughter spilling out into the night. It had been a great day in Babylon Restored. A new governor had been appointed in the city and some sense of Democracy was finally taking place in the Fractured states with the passing of Calamity. “A toast!” Governor Green held his glass in the air to make another speech. (After all, that is what politicians do best.) “I'd like to thank everyone who had a part in my campaign. Soon, not only our city, but the rest of the world will be restored to a stable place for our children to grow up in. No longer will we live in fear of…” Screams rang through the banquet hall as Governor Green slumped against the table, a gleaming dagger protruding from his back. A note attached to the hilt read “We are the rightful rulers. All who challenge us will meet the same fate.” __________________________ Welcome to QF34: Reckoners CLUE You will all be suspects of the Governor's murder. The lynch is for voting who will be interrogated next by the police. The game takes place in the hotel where the murder happened. Essentially the game is CLUE set in the Reckoner’s world, so it would be fitting if you chose a name accordingly, but don’t have to. (i.e. Miss Maroon, Baron Buttermilk, Lady Lilac) Have fun! Sign ups are now open until the timer ends. Player List: Quick Links:

A thousand years ago, the Internet tried to unravel the mysteries of the largest fantasy series in the world. They failed. EDIT: On 2nd thought, we're Adonalsium. He was Shard-like but not one of the 16, so he was the 17th. And our minds Shatter and Splinter while we try to become Slivers of Brandon.

A beautiful recent wob explains (in the context of forging someone to be elantrian or allomancer) that manipulating connection and identity isn't that hard. This is one of my favorite recent wobs as it changed from previous times the question has been asked. Bear in mind though that this is all in the realm of plausibility, not an easy thing. And there are reasons forging yourself to become a feruchemist would be harder than an allomancer. And the implication is that its very time limited- probably better to do that to someone then spike out the ability (Yes i did a theory proposing this -

There are... Fou.. Um... A bunch who we watch.

We hop from world to world by going book to book, but we don't interfere in the goings on

So say we all.

Getting hung up on regional spells means your not paying attention to the important Cosmere tidbits. Language is constantly shifting and evolving. Spelling changes. Irregardless is unfortunately a recognized word. None of it matters. Gimme my Cosmere.

There is a story behind the name in case your wondering. It's a good one too. Let's see if I can remember how it was told to me. (apologizes if I step on anyones toes, this is just for some fun ) (ahem) Way back in the mists of time a website was founded by Mi'chelle Walker, also known as @firstRainbowRose called Hoid's Compendium. It was a place where those that had heard of the mysterious Hoid could gather and share what they had learned of the stranger. Then one day the skies parted and this site was blessed with the presence of Brandon himself. He gazed upon what lay before him and was greatly pleased. He blessed the founder(s) and gave (suggested) a new name, the 17th Shard. And as it was written, so it became. Or if you want the official (boring) version, look below: (taken from the About page)

Did anyone else hear Chaos say how Evi "tried so hard" and immediately think, "and got so far, but in the end, it didn't even matter"?

I read Elantris after Mistborn 1 trilogy, so curious, I divided by 16. It's 42.

Good Afternoon Fellow Sharders! So it's been a long while since I posted any kind of theory, all my previous ones were debunked by Oathbringer and I have become a little cynical about trying to out-guess Brandon. That said, I have been thinking about this one for a while. How exactly is Odium bound to the Greater Roshar system? We know he is invested quite heavily there, but why would he do that? After all we have this WoB (all WoBs will be spoilered for length): Well he seems to have spectacularly failed on that count, so what happened? I propose the answer is quite simple: He made some promises he shouldn't have. Part #1 - Shardly Promises So the first part of this is something we have little evidence for, but I am convinced is the case. That is: Shards must keep their promises. Honor himself in WoK gives us the first clue in the below: So all Shards (or the 3 Rosharan ones at the least), are bound by certain rules. One of these is the rule regarding champions that we saw in Oathbringer and has been hinted at elsewhere in the Cosmere. I propose that another one of these rules is that they cannot break their word. In Oathbringer, Odium told us this after being queried by Taravangian: Now I know what you are going to say, "but he could be lying" and yes, he could. But I don't think he is. Smart Taravangian has shown a remarkable understanding of the situation on Roshar and left very specific details on how his slow self could get the deal. If Odiums word wasn't enough I imagine he would have know. The Stormfather also claims that "Spren and Gods cannot break their oaths". Add to that the fact that Odium must abide by the rules of the challenge of champions and we have NEVER seen a shard break a promise, not even Odium or Ruin, and I think we have reasonable cause to believe that they can't. Or the 3 Rosharan Shard can't at the very least. Now I am sure their interpretation of the promise makes a difference in what they can do to get around it, nevertheless, I think they have to abide by the interpretation they make. Part #2 - The Timeline Just to make sure we are all on the same page the following is a list of the relavent beings/species that came to Roshar in chronological order: Parshendi/Listeners/Singers - Pick your name, these guys are native, as far as we know. Honor and Cultivation - Arrive together and, with the spren, become the Singer gods. Humans (at least 1st Wave) - They fled Ashyn, and were given Shinovar as their new home. Odium - Arrived around the same time as the humans, close enough that the Singers believe the humans brought him, but that may not be the case. Now Odium may have arrived just before or with the humans. I think it was likely a little after but it doesn't really change anything either way. So we know from OB that some time after the humans arrive, they began to expand. At some point they also began to worship Honor and Cultivation, such that the Singers felt betrayed. That led to the first desolation which per OB, went something like this: Singers (at least some of them) want power to regain their lands and kill the humans. They make a deal with Odium and become the Fused. They can Surgebind and can't be permanently killed. They begin killing many humans, presumably maing headway in their war. 10 people made a deal with Honor, the Oathpact. They would become the Heralds and seal the Fused on Braize so long as they stayed there. However, we know the Heralds broke and let the Fused past. Once they were defeated again on Roshar, the Heralds went back to Braize and sealed them again, until the next time they broke. And so begins the cycle of Desolation. Part #3 - Conclusion Now the key part of all that is the deal he made with the Fused. The Singers seemed to have knowledge of and contact with Honor and Cultivation so it may not have been an accident, but one way or another Odium promised them he would help them regain their land. He was probably wary of investing but anticipated a short campaign that would get the Singers their land and, once their believers were gone and anything they had invested in destroyed, he could Splinter Honor and Cultivation and move on. The Oathpact prevented this by stopping him fulfilling his promise the Fused. He can't break it so he has to stick around and keep his word. Until the Fused are victorious, he can't Divest from the Rosharan System. Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to see what people think. There are some potential issues with it but I think it fits quite well with what we know as well as explaining how the Honor/Cultivation/the Oathpact, have bound him without him being one of the parties involved (as per WoB) All comments and criticism welcome Thanks, Jace

It's been known for awhile that Renarin Kholin has autism, thanks to several WoBs on this topic. I believe its important to have characters that have autism in fiction, but this isn't exactly what this topic is about... Thanks to Renarin's view point in Oathbringer, we now have a pretty good idea how his autism effects him. He is sensitive to sounds, uncomfortable at large gatherings of people (because of the noise and sound), unable to meet the eyes of others most of the time, and uncomfortable with being touched by those who aren't a part of his family. However, we've talked about this a lot already throughout the years, though this book reveals that Renarin is what many would diagnosis as Extremely High Functioning based on his symptoms and how he views the world (1). There is something more important that Oathbringer reveals, I believe. Jasnah is on the Spectrum or has a related disorder (such as ADHD). Oathbringer, 1132 (emphasis mine) While one might say this is related to what Dalinar refers to "her lunacy" (493) in one of the Flashbacks, and the earlier (473), when Jasnah recalls a childhood illness - Oathbringer, 478 - which she then says caused her to lose her mind. I don't believe that is all. In WoR, Navani stated that Jasnah was distant even as a child, and came off as someone who was already in their thirties. Often times, those who were diagnosed with Asperger's (which is not exactly the same as extremely high functioning autism, though many will tell you otherwise) in the 90s and 2000s before the DSM-5 was released in 2013, were described as "little professors". This is what I think that Jasnah was like growing up from the in-book descriptions. Plus, Jasnah is off compared to characters who are more neurotypical, like Adolin or Navani. She is really only close to her family (and Shallan to some extent), doesn't express herself openly (she's often seen as stoic and stern by outsiders, solemn), and is highly focused on her special interests (the Desolations and history). These are traits found in those with Autistic Spectrum Disorder (ASD), though I think that Jasnah either has Aspergers or Pervasive developmental disorder (PDD-NOS), which is a diagnosis given to those who have some, but not enough of the traits, for a standard ASD-diagnosis (under the DSM-4). This isn't just important because it could mean there is another character with autism in the cosmere, it also would say something about the Kholins themselves. ASD commonly runs in families, and with Jasnah being autistic, having Asperger's, or at least, PDD-NOS (that is, some autistic traits), it means that ASD runs in the Kholins. This is important to me, because it runs in my family (both my siblings and a few of my cousins), and that is something I haven't seen done in fiction before. It's awesome, and I hope it's true because I haven't seen families like mine represented in fiction. And that is super meaningful to me. (I will bring up the diagnosis definitions later if people ask, but I have to do some chores and things, so please be patient with me. I'll get back to it, promise).

It'd be funny if Brandon did Cosmere versions of our names for the in-universe group when they do show up. It'd be funnier if they were all about bickering over the smallest detail going on in the worlds

I have a few memes for y'all. On an unrelated note:

I'm very intrigued by this, just wanted to say. I'll work on a drawing and then an actual map. Neither of them will be any good, but they should be useful if no one else gets around to doing this in the next week

No, probably not, because it would take so much investiture that it would be impractical, and the stamp probably couldn't channel that much. Also, it'd be really implausible that you were actually born on another planet, with a Connection to Ruin/Preservation/Harmony in just such a way that you were actually a Feruchemist.

HALLELUJAH!

See: etmetal

We don't know what 4th Era Scadrial tech is, maybe it's all about moving electrons through complicated silicon based switches... And there was much rejoicing.

That's because you haven't eaten the Invested Fish-Banana.

A drunk, an atheist, and a monk walked into a bar, or rather into a lawyers office that was certified by the BAR because everyone thought the drunk offed his dad just because he had assaulted someone at his dad's house the night of his dad's murder and had loudly proclaimed his intentions to kill his miserly dad, but he was found guilty because he was in fact stabbed by some sharp and pointy love triangles and was eventually sent to the cooler. (Whew, that's a long sentence, but The Brothers Karamazov is my second favorite book of all time). When a group of ladies asks you who is prettier, demure and say they all are too enchanting to decide between, you'll save a lot of lives that way. A lady is stolen, argives are aggrieved, 1000 ships sail because of a face, the argives are Hectored, hector is a-killed by Achilles, the argives are further aggrieved because Achilles is pouting about his pin-cushioned pal Patrocles, achilles is a-killed by an arrow to the ankle, the Trojans learn that sometimes you do look a gift horse in the mouth, the city falls, armor clangs around them, and guess what, people still don't believe Cassandra, that's tragedy for ya. To stick with the classics whose game for The Scalet Letter (which I still wish was a once sentence book, sheesh).

This thread is really hilarious for me to read. I am married to a man almost 16 years younger than me. We have loved each other for more than 17 years, and there is nothing that indicates that we will feel differently for the rest of our lives. And when you think of the fact that women have a life expectancy that is longer than men, perhaps we will die about the same time. Anyway. Life before death, Journey before destination. So, who knows? And who cares, as long as we love? Nobody else can define or jugde the love between two people. I have no opinion when it comes to the jasnahdin combination. But I am sure, if Sanderson wanted to, he would be able to both make such a relation both logical, romantic, character developing and revealing, and surprising. I mean, it would not be the first time he surprised his readers. So, I don't think we can use what we have learned from the books until now to exclude the combination.

Hey.

I posted this in another place but I think it would fit better in here. SPOILERS FOR WAY OF KINGS AND WORDS OF RADIANCE! Enjoy!

Alethi budding surgebinger about to die to Nale, circa 1173, colorized.

It's nearly Star Wars Day! In celebration, here's some Star Wars themed cosmere memes: (spoiler tag for length)

"First was Chaos" and from him was born The Shard. From it "sprang again" theory, speculation, games, and many a WoB. - Shardogony of Nathrangs

Hnnn, I shouldn't have read this thread, dangit. Now I have to sign up. I will join as Shaman Sky, an eclectic Witch that is oddly obsessed with nature.

Color is preferential reflection of light, and colored objects used for awakening are no longer perceived as having color post awakening. As such, Im thinking that means light has nothing to do with Awakening at all. Perhaps the fuel for Awkening is actually the source object’s cognitive definition of its’ color? I’m thinking Awakening changes that cognitive definition similarly to the way Soulcasting does, but as a consequence as opposed to a goal. I know Soulcasting requires Investiture to convince the object to change, and perhaps interaction with the Breath used serves that function in some way; the more Breath involved, the more color the object can be convinced to relinquish. If I recall correctly, “Tears of Edgli” (ToE) make for a superior source for Awakening, and objects affiliated with Shard investiture have a strong presence in the cognitive realm (thinking metals on Scadrial). I’d be curious to see if objects dyed using ToE appear more strongly in the CR; might be a good indicator.

For me, the turning point was here. Add in his conversation with Azure to show him that people can walk away from a leadership role. Shallan simultaneously told him he was right, and that his judgments don't have to align with his father. Yes the scene in which he makes the admission is from Shallan's PoV, but I think that gesture of support was both acknowledged and understood, and without it he wouldn't have followed through. The idea that he's with Shallan only because he cares about what society and Dalinar think falls flat to me precisely because of this shift. He's Alethi. Everything with them is about ambition, wealth, and power. Yes, he'll still be a Highprince, but he'll forever be the idiot who declined the throne. And he I stand by what I said before concerning his feelings in regards to Shallan and Dalinar. She won out.

Look at what their name is. "Ink" spren. Where Cryptics are the natural expression of mathematical phenomena Inkspren are about thought and imposed structure of logic. Mathematics are true whether or not humans practice them. But logic? Philosophy? Learning? "ink" represents writing, and writing is a symbol of our intellect and record keeping... That's my take on it anyway. Edit: seriously, I've thought about it before, but actually writing that down...its not just writing. It's blueprints, schematics, art, information. The ability to write and record our thoughts and share them with others over distance and time fundamentally altered human knowledge and communication.

Today I found a small steel pin in my sweater, and my first thought was that it must have been the cookie I ate earlier. My next thought was "Do I get to be a coinshot now?"

All arguments against these words being three oaths are valid, and my gut feeling is, that it was indeed just one. I only have one problem with this approach - if "I am Unity" is not the Bondsmiths' third ideal, then what is...?

Maybe Mraize eats maize in preparation for the maze of m(ayonn)aise on the path to Braize--to fight Rayse, the Cosmere to raze. Yeah, sorry...