Leaderboard

Sorry to necro, but just thought of a new one. I am a sap, I know. Dear Navani, Roses are red, Violets are blue, I learned how to write, Just to send this to you. Love, Cool Dalinar.

I seem to have chosen a contentious moment to get caught back up with this thread. But I still feel compelled to dive in and try to take something of a (dangerous) middle ground on Adolin at least. First of all, @maxal I appreciate hearing your perspective an an Adolin lover on Shadolin as it stands so far. I think we agree so far as the romance being very one sided and in that way at least less than satisfying. One way which we disagree though is that I am gathering that you think it most likely that Brandon intended the romance to stand as is and are assuming therefore that he thought a one-sided romance would be satisfying in this instance. I am choosing to hope there is more to it. Of course we all risk letting our own perspectives color the way we interpret the text, and I know your reading was different, but for me the post below does some up why I think so: I don't have much to add to the above, I just thought it was another excellent summary for those of us who think there may be more to come and the ending we got in OB was not as straightforward as it may appear. On Adolin himself, it seems there is no exhausting the different perspectives on his character and perhaps for good reason. I would argue part of the reason for that is that there really isn't another character in SA that is on the same level of importance to compare him with. So far we seem to have Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar as the main protagonists. Adolin seems next in both page time and importance but clearly not on the same level as those three. Szeth, Jasnah and I suppose Navani are perhaps next, but they are all currently secondary characters with far less page time than Adolin (though that will presumably change for some of them of course). And everyone else is not even close. Adolin seems to occupy a lonely middle ground between primary and secondary characters, leaving the reader unsure whether to expect more or less of him. I would also add that because he is a "normal" character among powerful magic users and he is nice, funny, etc while being not well fleshed out in one direction or another he is very open to the reader projecting his or her own ideas and wishes onto. Not to pick on maxal again, but below is one example: I'm definitely not saying you are wrong here, your interpretation is perfectly valid, but since we are given next to no insight into Adolin's thoughts when he breaks up with Shallan there are probably a dozen other equally valid interpretations that would all rely more or less on the reader supplying their own thoughts into the moment (again because Brandon does not supply us with Adolin's). To be fair you did clearly state this was your perspective and I really only highlighted it to make a larger point I wanted to make about all readers being at risk of reading too much into Adolin that may or may not be there given his unique place in the story currently. I for one, don't think the problem is a lack of page time for Adolin, just that those POVs didn't get used to their full potential (whether deliberate or not). I see no reason why we couldn't have been given a clearer perspective on Adolin's feelings for Shallan for example, but we didn't. I have to assume that was deliberate. I have a hard time with the idea that Brandon honestly didn't think it necessary to provide more from Adolin (WoB to the contrary could be taken with a grain of salt as you rightly point out in other instances). After reading many speculative posts on Adolin will revive Maya and become an Edgedancer, Adolin will go dark, Adolin will die, etc, I've come to the point of view that any of these are possible (and I don't think one rules out any of the others, though all three happening seems less likely). It is fun to speculate, and there are some hints for all, and probably in hindsight the foreshadowing will be clearer, but as it stands now it isn't clear enough. The one thing I don't believe is that Adolin has gotten this much page time just for him to continue to be a useful foil, Shallan's love interest, Dalinar's son, Kaladin's friend, without any meaningful arc of his own for the full 10 books. I agree with this wholeheartedly. Those who argue that Shallan made her choice to love Adolin and not Kaladin might be making a great argument if it weren't for Shallan's state when she made that choice. At least from my perspective she was in no position to do so. You make another great point about Shallan hating herself and therefore not being in position to really love someone else romantically. To add to that a little, perhaps she sees Adolin as being right for her because he "loves" the parts of her that she doesn't hate and has therefore allowed him to see. The other parts of herself she has systematically hidden bit by bit since she has known him. So with Adolin she gets to be only the "self" that she can accept and it helps her bury the rest that she herself can't deal with. I had to bring this back because I love the point you made and it is one of my pet peeves when someone tries to dismiss a pairing they don't like by saying the potential pairing reminds them of siblings. It's such a common argument that I agree is particularly weak. One last little point, I do have to question anyone arguing that Kaladin didn't have much reaction to Elhokar's death (or that he wouldn't have much reaction to Adolin's potential death). It really does seem like we are reading different books on that point, but others have already pointed out the relevant quotes there.

I am pretty sure this has already been discussed in the thread, but I think that what @SLNC means is that the whole Adolin-revives-Maya-and-becomes-a-Radiant plotline is just one of the many things that fall on Adolin's laps without having him face any kind of conflict. He manages to revive a blade without knowing it, just by acting like his usual self, and because the blade he's been carrying all this time just so happen to fit his natural personality/behaviour as a guy who likes helping people? (yep, this is a bad rephrasing of a point made earlier...). Conflicts and change are what makes a story/storyline interesting. But there isn't any in the Adolin-revives-Maya-and-becomes-a-Radiant plotline. A journey involves an evolution in a character, however, for now, it seems as if Adolin just has to keep doing what he's already doing.

Seriously? Are we even reading the same books? Are you saying that Elhokar's death didn't cause any change in the story of the book? Why was Adolin asked to be king then? If it's a matter of personal perspective, from my perspective 10 POVs for the 10 SA books are way too many characters to focus on, I'd be glad if we didn't have any more side characters. Yeah, sorry to break your bubble but they are basically the three main characters of SA. We were introduced to these people from Book 1 and the focus has been on them all along because that's the main story. The reason why people are interested in these books, in any book, in the first place, is the compelling story of its main characters and not the seasoning secondary ones add to the story. Personally, I wasn't disappointed at all. I found the twist refreshing to Adolin's lukewarm character. He actually peaked my interest at that point.

AG4/AN1 - Day 10: I Will Protect Vanna stared at the painting in front of her. The border was a red-and-black stormcloud, with flashes of dark lightning scattered throughout it. But the centre, where she had hoped for light… A void had sprung into being there, against her will. She felt like she were looking into an endless abyss of night. A single spot of whiteness remained in the centre. Vanna did not want to fill it in, but… She lifted her charcoal, hesitantly. “You’ve lost,” said a voice from behind her. She sighed. “Tonight, then. I had been wondering.” “You should’ve flown away when you had the chance, little Windrunner,” said the voice, coming closer. “You had plenty of chances.” “You’re right,” Vanna agreed, still staring down at the painting in defeat. “But I didn’t.” She smiled defiantly. “And I won’t.” Quickly, she bent over the painting, finishing the centre at least. It wasn’t complete darkness, and she didn’t care what her instincts had to say in the matter. At the very bottom of the abyss she’d drawn was left the tiniest bit of pure light. She spun to face her attackers. “I swore an oath to protect. I will not run when my home is in danger, no matter the cost.” She inhaled Stormlight, making the cottage go entirely dark except for her glowing body. “Life before death!” she cried, and attacked. Three arrows took her in the back. Her Stormlight vanished. The painting, had anyone been able to see it, was unblemished but for a tiny spot of Vanna’s blood covering the white at its centre. Sunburst Toucan was killed. They were a Village Windrunner. Day 10 has begun. It will end in 48 hours, at 10pm GMT on the 13th February. Player List Player List 1. Amethyst Scorpion 2. Azure Mouse 3. Amber Vulture - Villager 4. Charcoal Hyena - Cannoc - Villager 5. Chartreuse Penguin - Villager 6. Coral Swan - Elyle - Village Lightweaver 7. Cream Tuatara - Villager 8. Emerald Falcon - Aldrick - Villager 9. Fuschia Ostrich 10. Indigo Weasel - Village Elsecaller 11. Ivory Dragonfly - Nolan - Village Bondsmith 12. Magenta Albatross 13. Mauve Crocodile 14. Melon Dingo - Quentisan - Village Edgedancer 15. Mint Heron 16. Onyx Flamingo - Squawk - Village Lightweaver 17. Opal Lion - Villager 18. Oxblood Beagle - Jai - Village Willshaper 19. Pearl Chameleon 20. Plum Rhinoceros - Villager 21. Quartz Zebra 22. Saffron Iguana - Emalia - Village Lightweaver 23. Sage Kangaroo 24. Salmon Meerkat - Village Bondsmith 25. Sapphire Elephant - Sympathiser Skybreaker 26. Scarlet Octopus - Village Edgedancer 27. Sunburst Toucan - Vanna - Village Windrunner 28. Taupe Gecko - Villager 29. Turquoise Gorilla - Village Dustbringer 30. Violet Axolotl - Villager

Edit: you've managed to change the topic as I was typing xD but there it is: I'm a bit conflicted on this one. I hate the thought of Adolin becoming a Radiant. For three reasons. First, he already has all perks and privileges a person can have apart from Radiancy. If he gets also that, it'll be too much. Second, at this (rather late) point in the story, given current scope of the whole series and Adolin's pagetime, it's unlikely we'd get a huge Maya revival arc. If it happens, it won't be anything too long or complicated. To me, it would diminish the struggle other characters had to go through. They started really low and gradually built themselves as Radiants, and Adolin would suddenly jump on this train in the middle of the journey? Even though he doesn't even need it? I don't like it at all. Finally, Adolin's purpose is to be a non-Radiant. To provide a different perspective is one part of it. To me, another one is to show the clash of the worlds, of the one that is fading away and the one that is emerging from chaos. He's the model of what used to make a man stand on the top of the world and a contrast to the emerging caste of the troubled superhumans, who will dominate the new one. I'm quite attached to this interpretation because it puts his character in a very broad context and gives justification for Adolin's oversimplification and perfection. That said, I can't agree that nothing will happen with Maya. If not for any other reason, then for one that Brandon wouldn't leave void hints for something that many readers were looking forward to so much. It would be a strikingly malicious breach of the "fulfill promises made to the reader" principle. My theory is that we'll have a bit of mirroring of what happened to Elhokar. There were hints he would become a Lightweaver and they did pay off, even if not entirely as one might predict. He was used to make Hoid a Lightweaver and give us a tragic moment. I can see something similar happening to Adolin. He could revive his spren to pave the way for others. But if he does, I can't see him staying around to enjoy it for too long.

Jack Tormander presided over the ball. The fanciest one of the season, and the last, though few knew it. Most houses knew that the balls would stop soon. Tensions were on the rise. Atium had been stolen, nobles slain, Skaa rebelling. War was coming. But none of the houses expected it to start that very night. After the dinner ended, when the House Lords sat at the long table, waited on by their Stewards. Jack Tormander. Wyrm Heron. William Zerrung. Claincy Ffnord. Rab Heatherlocke. Matthew Machmuller. 6 of the most powerful people in all the world. While smiling through their teeth at each other, they sipped their wines and ate their desserts. While watching for knives and arrows, the drank poisons. While screaming in burning agony, they fell from the benches. The Ball didn’t go on much longer after that, as Nobles retreated to the safety of their keeps, abandoning their food and their smiles. Each of them seeing the double sided blade of Opportunity and Vengeance. When one man dies, another must surely take their place. The Lord is dead. Long live the Lord. Welcome to Long Game Forty Two! This is a Anti-Faction Long Game run by A Joe in the Bush and Elbereth. This is not an ordinary game, so please read the rules carefully. At the beginning of the game, each player will be sorted into a random house. (Tormander, Heron, Zerrung, Heatherlocke, Macmuller, Ffnord) There will be no more than 5 people per house, and no fewer than 4. Each house will have their own private Doc to communicate in. You may not Copy/Paste from or into your Doc. You cannot vote on a member of your house. Each house has access to the same 6 actions. Each night, you may attempt to use one of your house’s actions. If you and another member of your house attempt to use the same action, neither of you succeed, but you do not know you failed. Actions: Allomancers: You may send your house’s Allomancers to kill another player. You cannot send them to kill a member of your own house. Hazekillers: You may send your house’s Hazekiller’s to Defend another player from one Attack. Guards: You may send your house’s Guards to Detain another player, canceling any order they sent in. You cannot target a member of your own house with this. You can stop a player from using Guards. Obligators: You can send your house’s Obligaters to negotiate with another player. They will not be able to vote the next day, but they are not aware of this. Skaa: You may send your house’s Skaa to mine for Atium. They succeed 33.3% of the time. If you have Atium, you may use it to amplify another ability. See the Atium section. Beggars: You can talk to the Beggars, and learn who is in PM’s with a target player. You will also learn which of them is used the most, so don’t bother making 100 PM’s just to hide who you are actually talking to. Atium: In addition to the Nightly actions, there is a Daily Lynch. With regards to the writeup, the lynched player will be revealed to have Skaa Ancestry, and will be killed by the Inquisitors. Only one player may be Lynched per turn. If there is a Tie in the votes, no one is Lynched. You may also, at any time you want, make any number of PM’s with any number of other Players. This sounds like a pretty simple, cut and dry Faction game. But this is a Joe Game. Nothing is ever as it seems! In order to win, you have to be the last surviving member of your faction. In order to win, you have to kill everyone in your faction. Have fun! The Game will begin in When you sign up, please inform us if you would prefer Longer Days, or Longer Nights Player List: (Straw) (Shanerockes) Lebereth (Droughtbringer) Boseph Jush (Fifth Scholar) Count Olaf (Eternum) Auden Ostlin (Bugsy) (Devotary of Spontaneity) Lord Grumbles (Araris Valerian) Hadrian (Sart) Taswell (Jondesu) Remart (Crimsn Wolf) Altea Meza (Living Legend) Jonas (Stick) (Steeldancer) Leets (Orlok Tsubodai) Locke (Mafia) Ivan (TheMightyLopen) Quetzal (Walin) Dbec (Mage Star) Magus Astrum Quick Links

I take it all back. This is definitely in my headcanon now. After all, what does a bridge do but bond two places?

Perhaps it has been infused long enough that Bridge Four's spren is now the 4th Bondsmith spren.

How is pointing out that certain parts of the readership treat Adolin unfairly victimizing him? Did you perhaps miss the parts where we see Dalinar trying to live vicariously through Adolin while also neglecting him, and how that shaped Adolin's self-estem issues? I admit you have a point here, about how viewpoints are used being more than the sheer number of them. And yet, I can't imagine Brandon would would spend so much time giving Adolin so many viewpoints if he was only ever going to be an observer of events. So Maya saves Adolin, gives him her name, communicates with him isn't confirmation enough? If you saw another character doing the same with a spren, would you say the same thing? Will he have to swear an Oath before you see it as confirmed? So why do you see it as Adolin getting everything handed to him? No Radiant has ever had an easy path so far, and Maya is still kinda dead, so that makes it even harder. What makes you think this will somehow be easy?

Did you hear about the bass player whose timing was so bad he threw himself behind a train? Also, as a guitarist, I'm a big fan of talking about every instrument as if it were a guitar. People pull out cellos and I say, "hey, that's a pretty big guitar." And it's always fun to tell the wind players that they shouldn't blow into a guitar.

When you start talking like a Horneater in casual chat conversation.

Hey everyone, with Valentine's Day coming up, I thought it would be fun to post Stormlight Valentine's cards! All pairings and concepts allowed, but please no arguing. Text or images welcome! I'll start with some I came up with for OB. Have fun!!! (Hidden in spoilers because long)

With the Winter Olympics going on, let's come up with what Orders, Mistings, Ferrings, Twinborns, etc etc would be great at what sport! Any magic system, any sport in the Olympics. Oathbringer included, so I added OB spoiler tags. For example, Edgedancers would be great at speedskating! Dustbringers could probably rock the Curling. Thugs would really nail the Discus throw. Any other ideas? Edit: To make sure the competitions are fair, there's a larkin that sucks all the investiture from you before your turn, and you are given measured doses of your flavor of investiture--say 1 mark worth of stormlight, x amount of steel, etc.

So we know that Renarin seems to have a special place in the Diagram, and Odium is unable to see his part in it. I can see two possible reasons for this, that might be inter-related. 1. His ability to see the future as Odium sees it changes the future. We know that Renarin seems to have his future seeing ability through Glys' corruption. Presumably (given that both Renarin and Odium incorrectly see Dalinar fall) the future he sees is the same future that Odium has predicted. But this knowledge changes things. For example, Jasnah is set to kill Renarin when he turns around and nods, knowing what she will do and accepting it. That act prompts her to stop. By knowing a future he ended up preventing it. It will be interesting to see if he will start using this information consciously, working against Odium by using his own assumptions about the future against him. 2. He is Like an anti-Odium In the scene "A small bottle" Dalinar reflects that he can't understand why his sons don't hate him. This is particularly striking for Renarin given that we have seen ample evidence of Dalinar' lack of love towards his youngest up to this point. Yet he doesn't hate him, instead he shows extrodinary love and empathy. It may be that Renarin is so different from Odium that he either slips under the radar or Odium simply can't predict his actions because they are so alien to his nature. Curious to hear other theories.

2 through 4 are just "Bridge 4!" at increasing volume levels. The fifth is a very rude and impractical suggestion for Moash.

Thank you. Again, thank you. Another thank you: why would Brandon waste valuable page time on a useless character having no significance within the narrative? Yes, precisely, thank you. How is this arc more insignificant than any other arc we got? Just because it is about Adolin it has to be trashed down and destroyed? Had it happen to ANY other character, NOBODY would be saying it is inconsequential. YES. What Adolin is getting is about a thousand times harder than anyone else, how about we start to appreciate what is actually happening? Maybe it exists because it is true. Push, but push fairly. Adolin did not get the story arc we all wanted him to get, myself the first, you know this, but is wasn't complete garbage either. Stating it isn't garbage isn't victimizing Adolin, it is having a more rational view onto what the author actually wrote. Was it up to my expectations? NO. But it isn't as negative as you make it out to be: there is a middle ground in between. I am trying to view it in a more positive way than I was, meet me half-way. He didn't get the chance to. Adolin and Dalinar barely inter-acted within the narrative. Am I pleased with it? Nope. But I think it is premature to pass judgment on it considering both characters didn't get the chance to inter-act. This may gone within book 4 or not, but it is false to state Adolin's relationship with his father is NOT troubled. It is. He basically states how Dalinar wants him to be a man he is not. It is not anywhere near the same. Oathbringer did not screamed and remembered Dalinar: it still did not give out her/his name. It still did not try to communicate with Dalinar. It jus recognized him. Period. What happened with Maya was magnitude more significant than anything Oathbrigner did. Maya communicated with Adolin both after and before the perpendicularity happened. It had nothing to do with it. You are being purposefully negative. Adolin had several introspective POV. He had more than within previous books. He had more than any other characters but three.

I actually think that someone *else* might revive Maya, or then Adolin will create a totally new type of relationship with the "dead" spren. Not Radiancy, but something where the spren becomes sentient (but stuck in the blade anyway). So a sentient blade 2.0? Or maybe Mayalaran would be free to roam around and leave Adolin once he's revived her enough? Maybe that's not possible, who knows, but I'd like for the Maya story arc to go somewhere satisfying rather than it being an Elhokar-type shock death or a boring "oh he's a Radiant too now" moment.

Good thing she taught him the masculine "I".

You always say this when you disagree with me. You jump in and say I am victimizing Adolin. Where did I victimize him? You are arguing his story arc is all for nothing, he has nothing going on for him and the Maya arc is an Easter egg. I wasn't aware arguing for the opposite was victimizing him, but if this is how you feel about it, then I fear I have nothing else to add on the matter. My personal thoughts is you are downplaying the entire Maya arc for reasons I cannot understand. We all know it may not turn out as we want it to turn, but I do think tossing it away as if it were inconsequential is going a tad too far into the other direction. It is not irrelevant because you are arguing Adolin's page time is meaningless, you are arguing he has ZERO character development within those pages. I got out examples of other characters, having page time, having even less development than he got. My purpose was to say comparing Adolin to Shallan is pointless: Brandon will never write an equivalent arc for Adolin, but if we compare him to character having a more similar page time than him, then his story arc suddenly looks much better. You disagree? Fine, there isn't much I can add. At the end of WoR we had ONE sentence: I hardly consider it to be character development. OB extended on it It also highlighted his relationship with Dalinar IS troubled which is a point I never managed to sell before we all read OB. Hence, OB did add things to his character even if you insist it didn't. I misspoke, my bad. I didn't mean to say Part 4 and 5 were all about Adolin, but Adolin's viewpoints within those parts were about him. You were arguing Adolin's entire page time is serviceable and only exists to make other character shine. I brought out Part 4 and 5 to highlight the fact his viewpoints, within those parts, had no other purpose but developing his character. In other words, he was a foil to no one during those. It wasn't perfect, it could/should have been better: Adolin's arc is not cohesive from beginning to end because, yes, Brandon does over-use his character for foil purposes, but it still was better than what he got in WoK/WoR which is the point I was getting at. My take is saying Adolin's viewpoint is meaningless is going out of proportion, let's push fair here. It wasn't what we all wanted, true, but he wasn't the train wreck we are describing either. To be honest, Adolin only had potential after WoR, he never read much potential after WoK, so we ought to say he's had potential for two books. Sanderson had Adolin start reviving his Blde: if this is not an arc, then I don't know what it is. This was the very first time Brandon wrote something which belongs to Adolin's character and only him. You don't want to read it as is? Fine, but I tend to think that's actually something, it is more than what he got at the end of WoR. Yes and no. Kaladin currently has no story arc, his entire story arc in OB could have hold within half as less chapters. Renarin never got a story arc, he remains a very minor character. Sure, he's got a corrupted spren, but this isn't a bigger story arc than Adolin reviving his Blade. Lift as zero story arc either, neither does Navani. Szeth story arc is to follow Dalinar. It is false to think every single character has a defined story arc and a purpose. They don't all have. Adolin is the Highprince now and he has started reviving his Blade not to forget he has married Shallan. What does Jasnah got? Oh yeah, she's the Queen.... I am sorry, but Adolin's character got a lot more going on for himself than her. Yes. Shallan stood by Adolin and allowed him to make his decision. Trying to re-write the scene to turn into something negative is just ill-faith. She basically told him he could be what he wants to be and she would support him no matter what. She never told him to refuse the kingship nor to accept it. She never spoke of what she wanted: she accepted his decision. Seriously? Where was the big emotional impact of Elhokar dying? Dalinar thought about it for one sentence and then it was gone. Navani cried for one paragraph and then it was done. Sure, there were some consequences, but they could hold up within a handful of paragraphs. If this is all the pay-off killing a character gets, then killing a more important one such as Adolin seems like a bad gamble, still IMHO. Agreed. It is why I mentioned it was my personal's perspective: I cannot hope it will be shared by everyone. My personal preferences are I would prefer if the narrative was more evenly split in between 4-5 main protagonists, less minor ones. I do not mind the focus changing within the second arc, but I don't get why those character need to have a narrative and viewpoints, NOW, but YMMV. Which bubble are you trying to break? I've just told you the narrative could have done without Adolin's viewpoints, but it didn't. I have also said it could have done with less viewpoints from Dalinar/Shallan/Kaladin, but all of these viewpoints exist for a reason AND THIS INCLUDES ADOLIN. The idea Brandon is just writing viewpoints for fun, because it amuses him for no purpose at all is rather hilarious. He chose to gave us Adolin's viewpoints, hence he must have a plan. SA is the compelling story about its main character? Do you realize Dalinar doesn't have more viewpoints than Adolin in WoR? Before OB, both character had exactly the same page time. It is false to think those books have just been about those three: they never were. Adolin never was the seasoning: Jasnah is the seasoning, Renarin is the seasoning, Navani is the seasoning. In OB, I do think Brandon did gave too many viewpoints to those three and, as a result, part of the narrative dragged. Dalinar's chapters mostly. A lot of them were repetitive. Of course, everyone is free to disagree, but I think you are going too far onto the other end. Some readers like it, some readers disliked it. I never said opinions were unanimous, but I for one was disappointed about it. It made me wary to expect more our of Brandon: he disappointed me here.

Am I the only one, when they saw the call girl spam, thought of Pattern shouting, "NO MATING"

Dear arms: I'm glad that we three can spend this year together, gon! I will make sure there is a lady for each of you! --The Lopen.

So I know there's a theory going that when Dalinar united the three realms, and Odium said "we killed you", he was referring to Adonalsium rather than Honor; that somehow (either in the spiritual realm or the beyond) Odium saw Adonalsium in the perpendicularity Dalinar created. I won't go into it all here, but I was thinking about the letters from various shards to Hoid in the epigraphs and started wondering about Hoid's motives. The letters seem to imply that Hoid has contacted multiple shards of Adonalsium and asked them to assist in the conflict on Roshar. On the surface it would appear that he wants their assistance in stopping Rayse, but is it really that straightforward? It seems very un-Hoidlike to simply ask directly for help, and he even contacted Autonomy (who he isn't on good terms with) and Harmony (who he doesn't really know personally). Dalinar's power allows him to bind together the spren of something that has been shattered but remember being whole, and we know from the Stormfather's reaction (and Odium's) that his ability to manifest a perpendicularity is unprecendented, and makes it possible that Dalinar has access to LOT of power in this department. I think it's possible Dalinar could restore a splintered Shard in the right circumstances, but could he do more and restore Adonalsium itself? If this is the case, and if Hoid knew this, then his attempt to lure the other shards to Roshar could actually be part of a plan to get Dalinar to "Unite" the shards, restoring Adonalsium. This is just wild speculation, I'm not actually 100% sold on the whole "Odium saw Adonalsium". I do think Hoid's letters tie in nicely with it, but I would also like to discuss some evidence that contradicts it. It's still quite possible that Odium was referring to Honor when he said "we killed you", the "we" implying that Odium wasn't acting alone when he splintered Honor. If this is the case, my money would be on him working with Autonomy, after all we do have this epigraph... ...which seems to suggest Autonomy's involvement. So what do people think? Was Odium referring to Adonalsium or Honor when he said "we killed you"?

Just saying hi! I've been a huge Brandon fan for a few years now and a regular follower of theories and posts here at the 17th Shard. Finally decided to make a profile and join in the fun :D. Just finished Oathbringer and I am bursting with questions and ideas. :)b

Hi guys. I'm from North Augusta, South Carolina. There doesn't seem to be much of a Brandon Sanderson following where I live, no matter how much I praise his work. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I was the only one. I know that the fandom is larger in Atlanta, Ga., but that's nearly three hours away. So it looks like it's just me holding the torch for now. I have been a hardcore Fantasy reader for a very long time.

I'm hoping for lots of Rlain (Rlain for Bondsmith 2k17, fight me). More progress for Adolin and Maya (please Sanderson, you have no idea how bad I want this, these two are my platonic OTP of the year).

Always posting, / never sleeping - / 17th Shard, the Shard 17th - / sleeping never, / posting always. I need a life. That one kinda sucked. I apologize. Not nearly as good as my tasty food one.

and then it can become a Shardbridge.

I think there's plenty of story left to tell a satisfying Maya revival arc. If this were any other series or any other writer I could agree with more, but this series is huge I don't think this is a problem here. Why does everyone assume that Adolin is simply going to appear as a Radiant without the same struggles that everyone else went through to get there? Characters can have different purposes or the purpose they have can change, you know. Adolin is hardly oversimplified or perfect, though I suppose that he can appear so, compared to characters like Kaladin or Shallan.

I found this amusing.

@Mage of Lirigon I like all of the spren more than almost all the human characters and I like the listeners/singers more than almost all the human characters. I like that they think differently than humans and that they live by different rules. I want to learn more about them. I find it really interesting. I have preferences in what I want to read, but I still enjoy other things. I want to read about Rlain more than Rock, but that’s just a little preference. I like reading about Rock. I want to read about Maya more than Adolin, but Adolin is the reason Maya might be revived. Reading about Adolin maybe reviving Maya would be enjoyable. Adolin is the reason Maya can speak or move. I like him even more for reviving Maya a tiny bit. @maxal I have different standards for children than adults. I have different standards for civilians than soldiers. You may see it differently. I can disregard Dalinar all day long. Kaladin was a slave, not a soldier when he saved Bridge 4. His job as a bridgeman was to die. There were other former soldiers among the bridgemen. Everyone had given up, everyone was apathetic. Kaladin was the exception. It was not his job to save Bridge 4. No one wanted him to do it, no one believed there was any good in saving bridgemen, many of whom were criminals. Kaladin saved them anyway. Adolin is a soldier and a shardbearer. I do think it was his job to defend the city and as soon as someone more able (Renarin) was there to fight the thunderclast, he went on to defend another part of the city. This time fighting against people he could defeat. @Mage of Lirigon I agree with this. I agree. Well if not Shallan or Adolin then Jasnah. I love Syl, but I'm pretty sure they're just friends. ETA: It has been said on these forums that if we guess everything we can't be wrong!

And we got to the conclusion that this cannot be (the end). Which I stand by Haha, if any of these turns out to be a broken promise, it'd probably indeed be better if both do. For the sake of balance in both the story and discussion.

"You don't know what you're talking about," he snarled, his lips pulled back over his teeth in a gruesome approximation of a grin, his voice growling into harsh laugh. "The attack on Axolotl was planned, and carried through to a tee, just as todays death was." His face contorted madly as he made his stand, wrist cracking as he pointed at Vanna. "Though one of us died today, we know his soul was taken by the Unmade, and he is with Passion as we speak. Sacrifices must be made for victory, as you've said, but you will never know true sacrifice, just as you will never know true victory." He continued, spitting on the ground between them. "This fight may not be over yet, but this great game we're playing is as good as won." Calming slightly, the man straightened, his hands returning to his sides, righting his clothing. He cleared his throat, and for a moment he could have been seen as a sane man. But his eyes; they burned, glistened, shone with a mad light that was an all too clear reminder of his mental state. There was a depth there, a depth of knowledge and of understanding, like that of a man who had gone searching, struggling, mining for knowledge, but had gone too far, dug too deep, and now what was left of the man that had begun that quest for knowledge was buried under the weight of what he had found. "It's as good as won." He repeated, laughing softly, looking into the distance. "A good chess player knows when he has lost, sometimes several steps ahead. And while there's always some room for surprise..." His head snapped back, his eyes fixing themselves on Vanna. "A good chess player knows when he's won."

They're more to being Radiant than being broken, you know. You have to act in a way that attracts the spren. Adolin has done so, but apparently you feels as as if all that doesn't matter when he does it, because of your bias against Adolin. Kaladin or Shallan didn't know what they did to attract spren either, which they did long before they were even broken. So you didn't notice how Adolin's messed up relationship with his dad led to his serious self-esteem issues then? Yet again, you act as if that was the only problem in Adolin's life. Family members dying violent deaths doesn't rank in your chart of suffering then? Or must he refer to it every other page for it to matter? So when you take it in context of everything that happned after, you don't see it a sign of something greater to come? And how is that comparable to a deadeyes actually communicating again? Adolin's journey to being a Radiant has not ended yet. In fact, it's barely begun. Conflict will come later, it always does. Right now, it's enough to show that he is on the right path.

Hi. I've read The Mistborn Trilogy, Elantris, and the first 2 in the Stormlight Archive only to now discover they all take place in the Cosmere and there is even some sort of suggested reading order. I have them all sorted up to #10, Wards of Radiance. And according to Book Catalogue (my book sorting App) Oathbringer is #15. So what is # 11, 12, 13, and 14? I would think The Bands of Mourning, Shadows of Self, and Edgedancer are 3 of 4...but what novella am I missing? Oh and I do own Arcanum Unbounded. Thanks and I look forward to digesting this site!!!

This isn't entirely fair. Since Adolin is non-PoV we don't have access to his thoughts and troubles. Granted, he personally doesn't express much interest (re: his blade) to others, but there may be some internal struggle we don't get to see. I think if there's anything to take from Teft, Moash, and Rock's PoVs in OB, it's that just about everyone is struggling. There's room for Adolin on this train, too. If Adolin/Maya OathMending becomes a Thing, it wouldn't be an inconceivable shocker; but it would be a bit like a very wet man wandering in from the desert: some pieces of the story are very obviously missing.

@Jondesu really? Because not like everyone else wasn't gonna point that out and also there would only have to contain one elim in that group because there was a kill made and that's all we know. Plus, pointing that out has given the elims a pool of possibly 5 easy village lynches. I don't see how that's such a villager thing to do. We've not even found an elim in that group yet and it's super frustrating not to be able to even take part in this game with analysis just because I didn't take an item on cycle one. I'd say that analysis has benefited the elims more than the village so far. Edit: @Eternum Why? In what way am I connected to Kynedath? I literally pointed him out as suspicious last cycle before Elenion did and no one had even mentioned him as being suspicious before that in the game as far as I'm aware. Did anyone even bother to look at my reads or did you just pass them by because you were assuming my alignment or you don't care because you're an elim? Edit #2: oh and also you can clearly see that I passed my bribe to Orlok because only me, steel, and monster ever took bribes and Orlok's actions have all been accounted for so I clearly gave him a bribe so all of my actions have been accounted for except day 1. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who can say that for the whole game besides Orlok. I didn't take an item because I forgot to, then I took acid because that was all that was left mostly and because it's useful for blocking the elim kill and because I didn't want the elims having it, then I took a bribe because Orlok asked me to and said he'd help me out of the village being dead set on killing me if Budgie flipped village, then I passed Orlok the bribe for helping me. So I'd say I'm more accountable so far then anyone. Granted you'll probably just say I was an elim playing it safe since cycle 1, but it's not really fair to tunnel so hard on me when you're only choosing me over Monster because of one post he made that's not as dangerous to the elims as everyone claims. (Seeing how most of discussion had stagnated onto just us six players) Edit #3: xD I also forgot I was gonna say, think about why Orlok would have been the elim kill? They might actually have been worried that he'd shoot me and my alignment would flip village which would incriminate Monster and also not give them the easy lynch target of myself for today. At least consider that instead of saying he just died because he was gonna shoot me and I'm an elim.

If anyone wants to know: Translation of German title in italics Mistborn/The Final Empire: Children of Mist The Well of Ascension: Warriors of Fire The Hero of Ages: Rulers of Light Alloy of Law: Hunters of Power Shadows of Self: Shadows over Elantel (Elantel is the German name for Elendel) Bands of Mourning: Bands of Mourning Warbreaker: Sounds of Storm The Way of Kings: The Way of Kings / The Path of the Winds Words of Radiance: The Words of Light / The Storms of Wrath @Herowannabe Translation of titles in Germany is...complicated. Sometimes they just take the original English title and stick with that. Sometimes they translate it. Or they make something up. That's one reason why I prefer reading in English, so they can't ruin the book because of a bad translation.

I really interpreted Kaladin's focus as being on Dalinar. That was the source of all the urgency for getting through the Oathgate. Dalinar was in trouble. Expanding the quote a little:

It's also worth pointing out that this isn't an "Adolin character-building arc," it's more of a pre-"resurrect ALL the blades" arc. This particular blade isn't special, so if it's possible to bring this one back, then it makes sense to devote resources for the rest (the very least to prevent the blades from being used by the enemy!)

A lot of people have said something close to what I was thinking. "I cannot save everyone, but I will save those I can". "I will not let those I can't save prevent me from saving those I can" was what I was thinking "I will let learn to let go of those whom I cannot or could not save." Those are all around what I was thinking. Something about growing callouses, like his father always told him to, but Kaladin was never able to. He knows, and has known for a long time, that he needs to learn to move past those he can't save and not let that hold him back, but has always had an incredibly difficult time doing so. It's the one thing he's still unable to accept and swear.

AG4/AN1 - Night 9: A Dance of Life and Death Sapphire Elephant stood before the village, smiling grimly. “A dance it is, then,” he said, bowing with a flourish. “The dance of death for me, and the desperate dance to save your lives for the rest of you. You have a chance, you know. Getting slimmer by the day, but if you can kill us first, you might survive. If you can clean the wellwater and escape the encroaching flames. I wish you luck.” The village growled, but seemed frozen, almost afraid to approach him. He raised an eyebrow. “Or leave me alive. I suppose that if you wish to die, that can be obliged…” They forced him up the gallows. No one really wanted to touch him, so he was sort of corralled up, and someone finally placed the noose around his neck. “Odium shall rule!” cried Sapphire Elephant. Crack. One dead. So many more to go… Sapphire Elephant was lynched. They were a Sympathiser Skybreaker. Vote Count Sapphire Elephant (8): Amethyst Scorpion, Fuchsia Ostrich, Magenta Albatross, Mauve Crocodile, Mint Heron, Pearl Chameleon, Quartz Zebra, Sunburst Toucan Fuchsia Ostrich (1): Sapphire Elephant Mint Heron (1): Sage Kangaroo Night 9 has begun. It will end in 19.5 hours, at 10pm GMT on the 11th February. Player List Player List 1. Amethyst Scorpion 2. Azure Mouse 3. Amber Vulture - Villager 4. Charcoal Hyena - Cannoc - Villager 5. Chartreuse Penguin - Villager 6. Coral Swan - Elyle - Village Lightweaver 7. Cream Tuatara - Villager 8. Emerald Falcon - Aldrick - Villager 9. Fuschia Ostrich 10. Indigo Weasel - Village Elsecaller 11. Ivory Dragonfly - Nolan - Village Bondsmith 12. Magenta Albatross 13. Mauve Crocodile 14. Melon Dingo - Quentisan - Village Edgedancer 15. Mint Heron 16. Onyx Flamingo - Squawk - Village Lightweaver 17. Opal Lion - Villager 18. Oxblood Beagle - Jai - Village Willshaper 19. Pearl Chameleon 20. Plum Rhinoceros - Villager 21. Quartz Zebra 22. Saffron Iguana - Emalia - Village Lightweaver 23. Sage Kangaroo 24. Salmon Meerkat - Village Bondsmith 25. Sapphire Elephant - Sympathiser Skybreaker 26. Scarlet Octopus - Village Edgedancer 27. Sunburst Toucan - Vanna 28. Taupe Gecko - Villager 29. Turquoise Gorilla - Village Dustbringer 30. Violet Axolotl - Villager

I feel like I'm the only one who thinks that Kaladin is at his best in OB. I really love him in that book. Right now though, Dalinar is probably my favorite of the three, but that might change.

Come on now. I've been pretty fair in my assessments of Shallan and Adolin's feelings for one another: [OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion I for one have never argued that Shallan does not have feelings for Adolin, or vice versa. I believe their feelings for each other exist, and have always merited exploration of their relationship. That being said, what I cannot get around is the fact that Brandon has laid out plenty of evidence both in text and in WoB for Shallan and Kaladin: 1. Brandon chose to write romantic interplay between them, that was both based on physical attraction, as well as emotional attraction. 2. This romantic interplay was not "resolved" in any manner where either party had an honest reflection of their feelings. They both chose to ignore them, which means instead of being "resolved", it is now "shelved". Because the author is intentionally shelving these feelings between the two instead of either of them addressing it, then it logically follows that the author intends to pull it off the shelf to be used in the Narrative later. 3. The author is also ON RECORD as saying that it was crucial to get the backstory of both Kaladin and Shallan done up front, because they are going to spend a SIGNIFICANT amount of time interacting together in forthcoming novels. 4. The author is ON RECORD saying that the feelings that Shallan had been experiencing for Kaladin was more akin to "love", and was elevated to that of her feelings for Adolin. The author has revealed that in his mind, the two relationships have the potential to be of the similar level, but with different manifestations (i.e. what Shallan wants now, vs what she might want in the future). 5. The author is ON RECORD saying that what you are seeing with regards to Shallan, Kaladin, Adolin has been seen before. Whether you want to consider that to be comparable to Dalinar, Gavilar, and Navani, or maybe even the more controversial Dalinar, Evi, Navani. Regardless, what we see in either case is the story of a relationship and love between two that ENDS, and the starting of a relationship between one of them and the other. Because the author has plans to increase the amount of signifiant time spent between Kaladin and Shallan, AND because he chose to not have them address their romantic feelings (Chekhov's gun) at this time, then it logically follows that it will be addressed in the future (firing the gun). This is the evidence presented for us both in text, and by the author, and it has no bearing on how Shallan and Adolin feel about each other right now. However, it does present strong evidence that what Shallan and Adolin do have is likely to END. We can quibble about the details of how this might come about, but there is significant foreshadowing and presented evidence both in text and by the author that this is the direction we are heading. So my point is this, when you don't see a lot of discussion here defending the long term viability of Shallan and Adolin's marriage, it is because most of us have considered the evidence presented and decided that there IS NO long term viability for them from a narrative. So, we try to imagine how that ending might come about. I do not feel like I am taking exceedingly wild leaps in my logical processing of the evidence, or the way I am using that to project onto future narrative possibilities. And that processing of the available evidence to date is this: Shallan loves Adolin now, Shallan is highly likely to love Kaladin in the future. She can love both, and she will love both. Do I like it that the author has decided to go this way? Not necessarily. I wish some things had been different, but wishing is not meaningful. We got what we got. All that is left is to come to terms with it, both of us.

"I will protect the living, and forget the dead." Kaladin's guilt over those he failed to protect is what broke him enough to become Radiant. It's what drives him. And he loves so many of the people he's lost. To reach the Fourth Ideal, he has to let go of them completely, to better protect those who are left.

To get your groan on...

I mentioned this in another thread, but I think Renarin is invisible to Odium because he was spared due to Jasnah's compassion. I think compassion is to Odium what words written in metal are to Ruin. It's his blind spot, he predicts the future based on assumptions that are inline with his intent, but compassion seems to be a virtue in diametrical opposition to the intent of his shard, and therefore impossible to use as a predicate for future actions. That's also why Taravangian vacillates between extreme intelligence and extreme compassion, one state allows him to see the future as Odium sees it, the other state allows him to act in a fashion that is invisible to Odium. I actually think Odium made a strategic blunder visiting T on one of his compassionate/stupid days because T's motivations were opaque to Odium. He acted from a position of pure compassion, letting his love of his grandchildren dictate the nature of the bargain with Odium. I think we are going to see in the course of the remaining books how compassion proves to be the ultimate undoing of Odium, and I think the act of compassion of sparing, saving, and rehabilitating Renarin will be instrumental in Odium's eventual downfall.