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Boy there's a lot going on in this thread, huh? I've been debating whether or not it's a good idea to step into the boiling waters here, but what the heck, I'll throw my hat in the ring. I'm just going to try to broad strokes some things because I don't want to end up falling into writing a 2,000 word response. I have better things to do with my Sunday afternoon. If I oversimplify your points, please understand that it's not an attack or misrepresentation, just me trying to look at the big picture here. That said, I feel like a lot of the reason that this thread has shifted here is that there's a majority of Kaladin/Shallan shippers who are trying to elucidate why they feel Adolin is the wrong pick for Shallan, but from my perspective, this discussion ended up shifting in an echo chamber sort of way to a characterization of Adolin that I simply don't find tenable. Adolin as a sadist or a sociopath? I'm almost amused that a thread that could accuse him of being too much of a picture-perfect Prince Charming is also saying that he's a barely restrained rage monster who loves killing and seeing his victims suffer. Adolin's an incredibly moral character, from where I stand. He's deeply empathetic and naturally kind. He has a strong sense of right and wrong, but it doesn't always line up with his father's sense of right and wrong, which causes tension between them. His killing of Sadeas was not the first act of a potential serial killer or anything so macabre, it was a frustrated sense of vigilante justice. Sadeas was unquestionably a monster who tried, on multiple occasions, to not only kill Dalinar and Adolin, but also successfully murdered over half of the Kholin soldiers, innocent men who had absolutely nothing to do with the feud. And the Alethi justice system did nothing. Sadeas was untouchable, save for some very weird loopholes in a dueling match with a boon. Sadeas gloated in this and made it clear to Adolin that he wasn't ever going to stop, so... Adolin stopped him. This isn't a misplaced anger or a sign of moral deficiency, this is someone coming face-to-face with their attempted murdered who smiles at them and says "I'm going to try to murder you and everyone you love again and there's nothing you can do to stop me." So Adolin stops him. I don't think it was the wisest course of action, but I think the fallout in Oathbringer (or lack thereof) shows that the characters figured out what Adolin did in that moment: Sadeas needed to be dealt with and in this case, there wasn't an easy or clean way to do it. It's unfortunate that it came to knives in the dark, but well... it kind of needed to. It's not something I would have realized going into Oathbringer, but in hindsight, I don't think Sadeas' murder could have been the big crisis of conscience that some were expecting, because even though Adolin might have had the "am I a cold-blooded killer?" question kicking around, at some point someone would have said "okay yeah bud, you might have killed him, but he didn't really leave you any other choice." Perhaps that's the Skybreaker in me who feels that the legal system failed in Sadeas' case and Adolin killing him was a restoration of justice in this case, but that's just me. Brandon did say that Skybreakers would not find Adolin's actions objectionable, so that makes sense. That said, I don't necessarily think it means that this plot is entirely wrapped up just yet. The focus on Sadeas might be over, but I think we'll see more out of Adolin and struggling with this in the future. Perhaps it'll be a barrier that he has to work through in order to reawaken Maya, that she would be hesitant to respond to someone who did such a thing, as she starts coming back to life. Perhaps Adolin will have another moment of snapping and will attack or kill someone else, perhaps this time someone who isn't as much of an irredeemable monster as Sadeas was and he'll have to confront that. There's still possibilities. I don't think this one's fully resolved. However, what I do think is fully resolved is the love triangle, to drag this thread back on track. I'll admit, I was never a Kaladin/Shallan shipper and I ground my teeth through every one of their scenes in WoR and OB until the end. A lot of that had to do with the fact that I felt those scenes were set up in a very cliche way, and that we were exploring cliche scenes that seemed to paste a straightforward boy-meets-girl progression over a slew of dangerously unhealthy traumatic pasts and incompatibilities. I remember thinking in Words of Radiance that the only way I'd enjoy the Kaladin and Shallan scenes were if they were leading to a subversion. Which, it was, so in hindsight, I like those scenes a lot. In short, I should have trusted Brandon. I was afraid that he was ignoring the deeper issues between Kaladin and Shallan by fitting them into these puzzle-piece perfect relationship scenes. I feared that we were falling into a cookie-cutter plan without considering the true implications of it, and if that was what was happening, I was wholeheartedly against it. Thankfully, Brandon was on the same wavelength as me. Kaladin and Shallan were a subversion and though I was worried that they weren't going in that direction at first, now that I can see that they did, I think it turned out very well. Perhaps Words of Radiance was a bit on-the-nose with the Kaladin and Shallan set up, but in hindsight, the point of those scenes was to take two incompatible characters and run them through the steps of the romantic relationships, so that later, we could see why that setup was doomed to fail. The infamous "storms she smiled anyway" scene reads on the surface as a beautiful character moment (which drove me nuts because it was super unhealthy, right?). And yet, when we revisit that philosophy of Kaladin idolizing Shallan's dangerous coping mechanisms on the ship in Oathbringer, we see that as they tread that path once more, the conversation collapses as Shallan hears Kaladin tell her that he wishes he had what she considers to be her greatest flaw, and we see that Kaladin doesn't understand the true depths of how this has damaged her and how insidious her repression is. He buys the lie, he sees the smiles and the laughter and thinks its genuine. And of course he would. Kaladin wishes he could smile and laugh and thinks anything that allows Shallan to do that is a good thing, when both Shallan and the audience know it is exactly the opposite. Same with Shallan and Kaladin's "meet cute," the Boots scene, which again, on surface level seems like a hilarious comedy of errors sort of scene. Shallan's doing an outrageous accent, Kaladin's grumbly at having to deal with a stupid lighteyes, it means that they both start off on the wrong foot and will now how a hilarious reason to snipe at each other and have to bond through later in the chasms. Which, again, feels a bit RomCom 101, but also ignores the deeper meaning of a lighteyes playing games with a darkeyes she just met, simply because her rank allows her to do so. Taking the boots of a soldier while he's on a shift, especially on the contrived premise that she's foreign royalty to got offended by misunderstanding him, is a cruel action, but Shallan doesn't consider the implications for Kaladin as she's doing this. She's just having fun playing games with him and thinks that she wants shoes. If we were simply supposed to take the surface meet cute at face value and laugh at how humorous it is, then that's an issue, as we ignore the underlying truths and characterization of both Kaladin and Shallan and what this reveals about both of them as people. And yet, it's not just a surface meet cute. It is meant to be revelatory of their issues and show the problems between them, under the disguise of a normal, run-of-the-mill flirty ship scene. In hindsight, Brandon's set up of Kaladin and Shallan and their relationship arc, ending finally in them both accepting that they aren't right for each other is masterful, especially for an author like Brandon, whose strengths have never fallen in writing romances. That he wrote a great long-con amicably failed romance of two characters who initially seemed like they could work well but eventually revealed that such was not the case was really well done. I even like, again in hindsight, the way he moved Shallan and Kaladin through those almost stock scenes of setting up a potential relationship, but used them to subtly reveal their flaws rather than actually bringing them together. Was there a lot of "evidence" for Shallan and Kaladin as a relationship? Yes, but all of it was two-fold, in that as it openly seemed to be setting them up together, it was actually revealing why they would never end up together all along. Masterfully clever, if you ask me. Now, I haven't really gone into a depth of why I think Shallan and Adolin are good together, but I can hit the high points. Adolin is a great person, and he is especially a great match for Shallan. He is deeply empathetic and is supportive of her. We've seen with Renarin that Adolin doesn't need to fully understand what is happening to be supportive. He may not always know what's going on with Renarin or what Renarin's thinking, but he's still powerfully supportive and positive. I think we'll see this in his relationship with Shallan as well. Does Adolin know, totally, what's happening with Shallan's personas? Probably not. He might not ever fully understand, but as with his brother, he's supportive of her and is ready to help in whatever way he can. Sidenote that this theme of true understanding not being necessary for true love is one that Brandon has touched on before, but I think we'll see it in a greater depth. I'll avoid spoilers, but Vin falls into a similar crux of worrying that the person she loves doesn't understand her and therefore thinks that another person who does understand her better is a better match, yet in the end, that's not the case. I think this is a really mature view of relationships, because, deep down, no one will ever truly 100% understand anyone else, even if you're a perfect match. There will always be aspects of even the healthiest romantic couples in that they don't have a perfect understanding of one another, hence why relationships take work and need open communication to be successful, because this is a difficulty that all people must confront, the deep and incomprehensible uniqueness of all. I think Vin and Elend are going to be a good parallel for Shallan and Adolin. They might be endgame, but even after Vin and Elend entered a true committed relationship, they still had personal difficulties that they had to work through. It didn't mean that they were wrong for one another, but they still had those conflicts as plot points. I think the "love triangle" side of this relationship is done for. Kaladin accepts that he never really loved Shallan. Shallan chooses Adolin and marries him. Everyone is satisfied on that front and the entanglement of that subplot is resolved and concluded. That doesn't mean that Shallan's personal identity issues are solved (far from it) or that Shallan and Adolin won't have relationship conflicts that they'll need to work through as a married couple. Both of those things are almost certainly going to happen. But I don't think those relationship conflicts are going to come from Kaladin. That chapter of this narrative is finished and we're moving on to new things. I'm excited to see what those things are as we move into later books. TL;DR: Adolin's a good person whose killing of Sadeas was justified and therefore could not have sustained a deep crisis of moral character on its own, but may open the path to a further exploration of that side in the future with a different event. Shallan and Kaladin's relationship followed established plotlines for a potential romance, but was written to subvert the end game relationship, and successfully accomplished this goal, giving an interesting and well-crafted conclusion to their romantic storyline. Shallan and Adolin's relationship is endgame, but this doesn't mean that they are no longer going to face relationship conflict that they'll need to work through. It also does not mean that Shallan's own personal conflicts of identity are solved. And, with that, I look back upon myself and, with the folly of man, that I thought this was somehow going to be less than two thousand words. Ha, Feather, thou knowest not thyself. Our grand total for this post is, of course, 2,208. Great job, me. You played yourself.

Preface: The most part of it is solidly grounded in facts and WoBs. You can rely on it. Some part of it is reasonable speculation, so you should not treat is as a fact, but like a theory. Sorry it's so long. The Letters. The one in The Way of Kings was written by Hoid to Frost (WoB), and the one in Words of Radiance was Frost's response to Hoid. The Letters are written after events of First Mistborn Era (WoB). In Oathbringer we got three: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters#Oathbringer_Letters What can we conclude about the identities of the writers and recipient? Well, the first thing is that two of them are adressed to Cephandrius - known as Hoid's alias - and the Third to "Dear Friend", but it's commonly assumed it's also adressed to Hoid. The Third writer almost certainly is Harmony. But my interests are in the First and Second. First, some WoBs on the topic: What are the Shards we have seen or know of? Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Harmony - Ruin & Preservation (Vessel: Sazed) Endowment (Vessel: Edgli) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Odium (Vessel: Rayse) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) The last two are questionable, as Brandon may be refering to the knowledge from books and not necessarily from WoBs. But then we have another WoB that will help us narrow down the identity of the first writer: What are the worlds we have seen? Taldain Sel Scadrial Nalthis Roshar (depending on how you understand "have seen" - also Ashyn and Braize) Threnody First of the Sun Well, this excludes Shard not on a planet and possibly Ambition, as Ambition is not on Threnody. I also doubt the Shard that is hiding is on the First of the Sun, but we'll get to that later. With Harmony having written the Third and the First Letter mentioning Rayse, Aona, Skai and Uli Da by name, we're left with: Autonomy Endowment Honor (dead and Splintered) Cultivation Judging by the fact that the Letter is supposedly a response for Hoid's plea for help against Rayse and that the writer is dissapointed that so few of the Shards kept to the agreement of not interfering with each other, we can also remove Cultivation. Which leaves us with two possible candidates: Autonomy Endowment If we believe Khriss words in Taldain essay about Autonomy's interference with other planets, it leaves us with Endowment as having written the First Letter. The Third Letter is written almost certainly by Harmony (I say that just because Brandon did not outright confirm that in a WoB but I doubt it's not Harmony). Second Letter [edit] Brandon has confirmed on 16th December that the Second Letter was written by Autonomy So we need to update our list of who might have written the Second Letter. It also mentions Rayse, so we can cross out Odium: Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) Well, that's still a lot, isn't it? Well, let's assume that these Letters are really responses to Hoid's plea for help against Odium. It doesn't make sense then that he'd write to Rosharan Shards. We can cross out Cultivation and Honor (who is also very, very, very dead at the time of Oathbringer). The Letter in The Way of Kings also mentions Aona and Skai being dead and their Shards Splintered, so I think we can reasonably assume nobody has Ascended to them since. Which leaves us with... Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) At that point there is no much to go off of - unless we assume Brandon in that first WoB up there at the beginning of this wall of text meant the Shards we know from books, not WoBs. Which leaves us with only two: Autonomy and Ambition. I'm gonna analyse each separately. But first, a WoB on the topic: The line "That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic." probably refers to an earlier WoB in that event which confirmed that all Investiture in Cosmere is associated with a Shard, even if it was not on Yolen on the time of the Shattering. It got assigned to Shards, but it's not part of what the Vessel of the Shard commands. Two important things that we can take from this WoB: First of the Sun has Investiture that is directly associated with a Shard and the island Patji is a Shard. With big asterisk. one of the letters in Oathbringer references First of the Sun Reading through the letters, the only one left that can reference any place is the Second Letter. (Unless we take " I noticed your many intrusions into my land " from the First Letter as reference to First of the Sun, but that's another can of worms, one I do not intend to open). It's either the place the writer is or the Obrodai that's being referenced. For now, let's analyse possibilities of Autonomy and Ambition. Autonomy Certainly a fan favorite, if I may say so. Many of us believe it's Autonomy, and there are certain clues that point to it, although some of that fierce conviction seems to be based on the assumption that the Shard assaulting Scadrial during the Second Mistborn Era is Autonomy. Not an unreasonable assumption, given what we know of Autonomy meddling with other worlds (if Khriss essay on Taldain is to be believed), having multiple religions or having entire pantheons where every worshipped god is actually Bavadin. Especially the last one seems to point in that direction, when you remember that the islands that Patji is part of are called Pantheon. Some people believe that Autonomy's modus operandi of creating personas is the reason for why the Letter is written by a collective. It's reasonable, but personally I doubt it - there's one thing in crafting personas and letting them attract attention, but it's not a reason for Autonomy to actually be a mind collective. Which leads us to... Ambition That is my favorite. Yes, Uli Da is dead, and Ambition is Splintered (WoB). But... Splintering can be a vague term sometimes. And we've seen Ambition's influence (which most of us ascribe to Shades of Threnody) and things that happened with Ambition have had ramifications across many places in the cosmere. Recently Brandon added that "this specific Splintering has had far-reaching effects" (WoB). From essay on First of the Sun we know Khriss is certain there is no Shard there... but her essays are more contemporary (sometime after Ascension of Harmony, and definitely long before Sixth of the Dusk happens: #1 #2) and she does not know what we know about First of the Sun: #1 #2. That is weird: ... since now Brandon has stated that Patji is a Shard. (With big asterisk). Hm... What if Ambition is not on a planet... what if it's on planets? What if Ambition's Splinters - maybe larger than the usual Splinters like spren or seons or skaze, but instead massive like Unmade, Nightwatcher or even Stormfather - have formed a collective mind? It would explain why the writer is speaking like a group. Let's see what is said in the Letter: It implies mutliple beings. They are hiding part of their being on a world and were surprised and are intrigued how Hoid has managed to locate them there. It would explain why Khriss is certain there is no Shard there - there is just a Splinter and it actively hides its presence. They have many realms. They wish to be alone. They do not believe in interfering with another Shards - does it fit the meddling Autonomy? I don't think so. Admiration of his initiative - it would be strange if it's Ambition, right? Since Odium has mortally wounded Ambition. But... Preservation admired Rashek just because he did not change. Even though he was a tyrant and responsible for many deaths, it was a quality to be admired. Why then cannot Ambition admire Odium's initiative and will to act? They have claimed a world - for me it fits Ambition to claim multiple worlds, to add it to their many realms. If it was Autonomy, why an avatar is beginning to manifest? Autonomy's personas are more of a masks Bavadin dons. And the new avatar was instilled with some preference - it suggests truly another mind, part of Ambition's collective, and not just a persona Autonomy uses. This reeks of Ambition to me - for Hoid to be deemed worthy of further communication, he must prove himself by overcoming tests (perhaps getting to Patji's eye?). It's only fitting that one can earn Ambition's respect by overcoming obstacles - it's a proof of your determination, will to act, drive... ambition. tl;dr: Harmony almost certainly wrote the Third Letter, the First one was written likely by Endowment and Second Letter was written either by Autonomy or Ambition (and I personally think the latter). Second Letter is confirmed to be written by Autonomy.

I personally think Shallan doesn't understand Kaladin's mental issues, and Kaladin doesn't understand Shallan's mental issues. I'm someone with depression, and I've been in a relationship where neither people really can help each other and can't understand each other's mental issues. It's massively destructive for a relationship and both member's mental states. I think Kaladin and Shallan could connect for a time but they don't have the groundwork for a longterm relationship. Them working together is not the same as them being in a deep committed relationship. Kaladin isn't ready for something like that. I dunno. I can only speak my own experience with depression, but I know depression is quite damaging on a relationship. Adolin, on the other hand, actually has the emotional capacity to support Shallan this way. I don't agree with the notion that it's "enabling". I think Adolin will immediately want to work to try and bring Shallan's personas back into herself. That feels like the logical progression. But first Adolin needs to get Shallan to open up about such things.

I read those scenes quite differently. What I saw was Dalinar trying to find a legal way to deal with Sadeas, and Adolin (barely) doing what Dalinar told him to do. Adolin himself had to be constrained on several occasions to prevent him from murdering Sadeas very publicly. Except this thought process never happened. The scene where Adolin kills Sadeas is one of the few POV scenes we have of him, and it is clearly described as a moment of rage in which the future consequences, good and bad, are not considered. He killed him because he was angry, and he enjoyed inflicting pain on him at the time. Those other characters reacted to an immediate threat (Shallan), or were conducting the business of war in which killing is a requirement (Kaladin), or were similarly vilified (Dalinar). Adolin is held to the standard he is being held to because intent matters. It matters not just that he killed a person, but why he killed a person. All of those things you said about Sadeas threatening his family, and never stopping are all completely accurate. The thing is though, those things didn't result in him making a calm analysis and rationally weighing the options and coming to the conclusion that he had to kill him because there were no other options. Instead what happened is Adolin hated Sadeas from the beginning of the series, and those things inflamed his hatred, and we see in the text that he acted out of hatred, not out of self-defence. Adolin is not held to a different standard here, any character that kills out of hatred will be (by me at least) held to that same standard. It's well established in the moral standards of our world and implied if not outright stated in the world described that hatred is not a mitigating factor in a case of murder, it is an aggravating factor. Taking a life because the person is a dangerous threat (a thought process not described) is a relatively selfless act, while taking a life because the person is deeply hated by you (a thought process that is described) is a selfish act.

I don't think our eye colors actually fit in anywhere. Dark eyes are unnaturally dark. Most are near black, and color can only be seen when the light hits them correctly. I expect that light eyes are also not just unnatural colors, like orange and yellow, but more vibrant then our natural eyes. Even for natural colors. I think that our variations, light or dark, would fall in between and thoroughly confuse Rosharans.

So there're a couple of things I'd like to bring attention to, so let's begin. The above passage is from Shallan. So what do you think? Forshadowing and a moment of self-awareness fro Shallan or just a throwaway piece of dialogue. I think and hope that it must be the former that the latter. Let's continue with something more recent. Also from Shallan. So it's suddenly Radiant who wants to spend time around Adolin while Shallan doesn't know what she wants? This whole chapter is basically Shallan struggling with her identity. Now it might be that by the time she makes her choice she has found out what she wants and who she is but from what has been pointed out here I'm not entirely convinced. The Shallan that Adolin "chose" seems to be the one who knows what she wants the least and is struggling with her identity the most. Let me know what you think. Am I reading too much into it and expect too much out of random pieces of dialogue? I don't think so but I thought it'd be good to get someone else to examine these tidbits...

I agree both of those things would be important and healthy, but just want to point out that with the small amount of data we have of their relationship post-TC, we are told (i) Adolin won’t be intimate with Veil (which doesn’t support that he’s trying to reintegrate the personas but instead keeping them seperate by treating them differently - he knows about her personas btw as she explained them to him on Honor’s Path) and (ii) Shallan still needed to explain some things to Adolin, most notably the Ghostbloods (which doesn’t support that she’s opening up to him.) Again as part of why I interpret the romantic arc the way I do, I find it telling that the author is specifically pointing this stuff out to us, as though there’s a blinking sign on the page saying “this isn’t healthy”.

@Ookla the Feathered there's a lot going on in your post too I first off want to say thank you for contributing, as this is hands down the best argument I've seen for Shallan/Adolin being the endgame. Hands down. I think you fit the events within a literary perspective really well, and I've been looking for that ever since I finished OB! I want to respond to some of your specific points, but the first thing I want to note is that you came into OB really wanting Shallan to end up with Adolin (because you didn't like the Kaladin set-up), therefore you are looking at everything that happened in terms of justifying why it worked out and Shallan/Adolin is better. That's no different from someone who came into OB really wanting Shallan to end up with Kaladin (and probably for the exact same reason you didn't - those scenes which you hate, and rightfully point out display important character flaws - worked for them as a cute set-up) who now are justifying why the ending we got is not the real ending. So, just keep in mind everyone is biased Just as an aside, I had no strong preference for either ship pre-OB; I thought Brandon was leaning Shalladin, but thought that could change. I came out of OB very pro-Shalladin though, though I didn't want Shallan to be in a relationship with Kaladin at the end of OB; lots of growth needed for both of them for that to happen. I think there's quite a bit of exaggeration going on here (e.g. sociopath vs. one instance of socipathic behavior), and I don't think anyone has even mentioned (for pages and pages) in respect to the Adolin discussion that it has anything to do with him being right for Shallan or not. I don't think Shallan even comes into the discussion. I mean, in world, Shallan is fine with Adolin's murder of Sadeas, so I don't even see that murder as a valid reason for saying that Adolin wouldn't work for Shallan. I think people have different viewpoints about the morality of Adolin's actions and whether or not that will have future consequences, which is admittedly not the exact topic of this thread, but since it's gone on for over 50 pages, it's bled into a bunch of different tangents. But I think trying to pin people's various feelings on Adolin's morality in the Sadeas killing and how the author might view that in terms of a further plot arc into "you are just trying to find ways to hate Adolin because Shallan chose him" is patronizing to the discussion as a whole. In fact, this above is where I would say the bulk of posters seems to come out - that there will be something else in the future related to the Sadeas murder, and it is likely that Adolin's emotions around his killing of Sadeas (how he felt at the time and/or how he came to terms with it) will have future implications. I think your reasoning for why you feel the way you feel regarding the morality of Adolin's actions was well-thought out and I 100% agree with your conclusion, but I wish it hadn't come after making a blanket statement that the majority posters were only dissecting Adolin's character arc as a means to dismiss his relationship with Shallan. Ok, I made that point and will move on. I find this incredibly interesting. I have two main issues with the end of the love triangle. I often put this one second, but I'll deal with it first. I felt like it was a huge bait and switch, not only in terms of these meet cute shipping scenes, but in terms of oodles of symbolism and foreshadowing that ties Kaladin and Shallan together beyond the scenes themselves. By the way, I think you break down the boots scene and "Kaladin thinks it's good Shallan hides her pain" scenes (chasms and Honor's path) really well, and I think it came across strongly in the narrative that Shallan's treatment of Kaladin in the boots scene was reprehensible (he takes her to task about this in the chasms and she agrees it displayed her prejudice) as well as the fact Kaladin is incorrectly idolizing Shallan's ability to shove down emotions (it's clear this shuts down their conversation and is referenced in Shallan's speech to Adolin about why she thinks Adolin is better for her.) Where we differ, is whether or not a "long-con" is a good thing to give your readers. It's clear it worked for you, but I wonder if it would have worked had it been twisted around. If you liked the romantic set-up "stock scenes" and found a bunch of literary devices which seemed to indicate that was the author's intent but disliked the set-up for the other romance, would you still be happy at the bait and switch? I think you're a writer (right?), so it could be that you're happy with the subversion element as a literary device regardless, but of course there are many readers who aren't happy being taken on a long-con. (I would also argue our "con" didn't get cut off when Shallan chose Adolin so we're still being conned, but you can read all those points in the thread.) ETA: I just want to clarify that I don't mind a "what you see is not what you get" type of subversion, but instead the subversion of adding little literary elements to pull two characters together and then having that lead to nothing. For the "what you see if not what you get" type of subversion (I call it misdirection), you would have to make Kaladin the obvious end game in the explicit storyline with Adolin in the background and a bunch of foreshadowing that Adolin was going to be the actual choice. Instead we got the opposite, which is why it felt to me less like a plot twist and more like, just as you described it, a con. I'm not going to quote all your Adolin stuff, but suffice to say I agree with you on all of it! I think Adolin and Shallan have a great foundation for a solid relationship. Now aside from the fact I don't like being conned (see above), my main issue with Shallan choosing Adolin is not that she chose him, but how she did it. I find the idea of any woman sitting down, a man holding her hand and staring into her eyes and seeing the "real" her (or the "best" persona, or however you're interpreting what Adolin did - not going down that path about what he selects and what that could mean), to be offensive. This is obviously a personal preference; I want my female heroines to be able to stand on their own feet and recognize for themselves their real self/best persona, and then they can run into their man's waiting arms and do their romance thing. People (Shadolin supporters actually!) have redesigned that scene so it could have worked that way, so it could have totally been possible to make it a self-actualizing moment for Shallan, instead of one that, to me, makes her look weak. This is of course my personal opinion, just like it's your personal opinion that Adolin is a great match for Shallan. I think we both realize that the author can make choices for characters which we wouldn't want the characters to make, and I'm very disappointed with how Shallan makes her choice (again not who, but how), because I think it flies in the face of the strength I've seen in Brandon's other female characters. Even if the Adolin romance sticks, I'm hoping this aspect can be turned around in the next few books. Anyway, I wanted to reiterate I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts in the post! I understand that what I see as a poor literary choice (laying a bunch of literary foundation for a relationship and then subverting it) you see as a delightfully subversive long-con by the author. So I appreciate that perspective!

Just give cents from me. If we assume, that Shallan is relatively herself at the end of OB, she seems well paired with Adolin. But if we assume, that 2/3 of her are not completely on board with all this, it's only Shallan persona who is happy and it doesn't look very well for post-reintegration future. So I don't know, if that's the key deal-breaker here, is anyone here who doesn't fall into these lines of thinking?

I think this specific incident raises a larger philosophical question. Is the killing of an immoral person a moral act solely because it reduces the quantifiable immorality of the world? In other words, do we measure the immorality of an act by the motives and circumstances directly involved in the act, or by the larger implications of the act. My own view is that we measure it by the motives and circumstances of the act, because to consider the larger implications moves us from fact into inference. Justice is evidence based. On the romance angle. I'm really not sold on any of the romances of the story. In many cases they come across to me as superficial, lacking the nuance of real relationships. As far as having an expectation of where Shallan would go, well, frankly I would have expected her to sleep with both of them, and then get upset that neither called her back. She's a teenage girl with even greater self-identity and self-worth problems than the norm. Sorry if that seems like a generalisation to anyone, I'm not saying it flippantly, but that particular generalisation of teen behaviour is based on reality. I can't really say I would want any of the pairings so much as all of the pairings. I don't think marrying at this age is helpful to them. I think having failed relationships is a prerequisite to having a stable relationship that isn't maintained solely by obligation. Adolin is probably reasonably well adjusted (probably a step too far actually) in this regard, but Shallan has only had one failed relationship, and one party was never committed to that relationship to begin with. In other words, I'd be okay with them hooking up with each other interchangeably, not because I voyeuristic-ally enjoy the idea of casual relationships, but because that's how people learn to have committed relationships - by learning from mistakes made in casual relationships. I would actually prefer that Shallan was older than she is. I think the depiction of her is more consistent with a slightly more mature, but in some respects developmentally stunted young woman.

Here are all of my Stormlight parodies (all of these can be found in the Cosmere! The Musical thread, and some of them are found later in this thread. I update this post every time I have a new parody.): My Awesomeness (to the tune of Sound of Silence): Truthless (to the tune of Blackbird by the Beatles) The Bridgeman (to the tune of "The Boxer" by Simon and Garfunkel) "Empty Vests and Empty Sandals" (to the tune of "Empty Chairs and Empty Tables") Carry On My Wayward Son sung as a duet between Odium and Dalinar with literally 0 changes "Bridge Down" (performed by Kaladin, Gaz, and The Bridgemen) I know we already have a parody of "Stars" but: "Highspren" (To the tune of "Stars") The Ashspren National Anthem (another one with zero changes): "You'll Be Back" (Sung by Odium, to the tune of the song with the same title from Hamilton) "City in the Clouds" (To the tune of "Castle on a Cloud" from Les Mis) Szeth's Suicide (to the Tune of Javert's Suicide from Les Miserables) "Fire and Rain" (as sung by Dalinar) To the tune of the song with the same title by James Taylor "Defying Gravity" (as sung by Moash and Kaladin at the climax of WoR to the tune of the song with the same name from Wicked) "Thrill's in the Battle" as sung by Dalinar to the tune of "Cat's in the Cradle" by Harry Chapin "Highstorm" (As sung by Kaladin to the tune of "Hurricane" from Hamilton): Part 2 is here

I'm sending my copy of Oathbringer to my brother, who's in Israel for the year. Nobody ever say that I don't make noble sacrifices.

The idea of Autonomy being a collective, or of Bavadin splintering their mind like Shallan, has always rubbed me the wrong way. I feel like we're still a long way from understanding Autonomy's intent (and how it's able to reconcile it with violating the autonomy of other shards by meddling with their worlds), but this still struck me as unfitting. This theory interests me quite a bit, because now that I think of it, there's no reason Ambition (or at least splinters thereof) shouldn't have gained sentience by now. The only reason the Dor hasn't is because it's trapped in the pressure cooker known as the Cognitive Realm, keeping it as what Sanderson describes as a "hot plasma", which doesn't sound conducive to forming consciousness. Ambition, however, was left alone after it's vessel was killed, so far as we know. It totally should be developing consciousness, like Sanderson has told us uncontrolled Investiture does. As for why it would form a collective, rather than separate consciousnesses like the spren of Honor or the seons of Devotion, perhaps it's because being in the depths of space meant there was no human thought giving them shape in the way that the Rosharans shaped the spren. Instead, the bits of Ambition each formed a consciousness, but still considered themselves to be Ambition, instead of embodying some concept. Thus, we would end up with multiple minds who all consider themselves to be extensions of the same entity. I'm still not sure exactly how I feel about this theory, but I'm intrigued.

@maxal I am honestly not sure it is a good idea for me to keep debating this - for one thing it seems totally clear to me that you've made up your mind and therefore there is nothing I can do to change it. This isn't an attack, but more of an observation. You seem to have closed your mind to the idea of further Adolin progression because 1 book which covered a period of (approx) 2 months in world didn't show huge character progression. Given that neither Shallan nor Kaladin (both MCs) show a huge amount of progression in the same period, I am simply not sure what you expected? I agree that Adolin didn't progress much. I don't see why you believe that he is going to remain the only static character in the story for the next 2 books (and possibly further). From what I can see, because of your disappointment you are unwilling to open yourself up to further disappointment, possibly at the risk of missing out on enjoying the theory crafting between books. I can see that you feel like your effort has gone to waste, but (a) I don't think it has - even for a non-fan like me, having someone around with encyclopedic knowledge of Adolin around is great (so even if the books pan out like you think, that effort is appreciated) and (b) the books aren't over yet - we have 7 more to go. If Adolin has no progression in that time he will be dropped as a side character - other "normal" characters will become more interesting as they will at least be novel. Anyway, I've quoted some of your points below that I particularly want to look at, but unless you want me to keep trying to convince you, I'm going to stop debating this with you - I don't want to cause either of us any unnecessary angst. For one thing, you don't seem to be interested in answering my questions. I disagree, I read plenty. He also trusts Adolin, which is more than he seems to do with Renarin - until the end of WoR anyway. Some quotes from tWoK are in the spoilers sections below (just in there so people can skip them if they want) I just can't see how this can be read as a lack of love - especially as Dalinar's behaviour to Adolin doesn't actually change - he still trusts him an enormous amount. I mean, he chooses to send him to Kholinar because he can be trusted so much. He won't force Adolin into a marriage because he wants Adolin to be happy. He allows Adolin to duel in part because he knows how much Adolin is giving up by not duelling. Yes he uses it as a means to an end as well, but he knows how much Adolin loves duelling so why not manage two good things? This doesn't explain my original point which was why Adolin? Anyone could have killed Sadeas and the outcome would have been the same - because people assumed it was done on Dalinar's orders. The fact that Adolin was the culprit hasn't been dealt with by the story at all. I believe it will be, based on WoB, and that it is something that should cause internal conflict. If it doesn't at least cause conflict within Adolin then you are undermining your own point that he isn't behaving like a sociopath because he should continue to struggle against guilt and try to justify it. Not only have we seen no guilt about the death, but we have seen little internal conflict about the lack of guilt. It is normal to have one or the other. On the other point. Odium doesn't "twist the minds of the weak". Do you think Amaram was weak? His strength of conviction is his own actions is what caused him to fall - he pushed himself too hard and so crumpled when he was finally made aware of his guilt (which he had tried to ignore). On top of that, Odium takes pain away subconsciously most of the time - subsuming it in other feelings. This is how both the Thrill and the Heart of the Revel work. It is not that those people consciously "gave up their pain" it is that another emotion covered it up, hiding the pain and making them able to ignore it. A bit like using alcohol or drugs to hide pain, you need more and more emotion to hide it and so you end up with less and less control. When Dalinar was under the sway of the Thrill we didn't see him consciously "give up" his pain or guilt - he only consciously held on to it at the end. Moash doesn't consciously give up his pain either - he just goes numb and is told the pain will be returned to him when he needs it. Adolin's lack of reaction looks to me like Moash's numbness and that was likely related to Odium. I don't assume that Adolin will fall like Moash has, although I think he has the possibility. I agree that if his lack of feeling regarding the murder is inherent to him then the self-deceit is a problem too. I am concerned that there is a supernatural element to his lack of reaction though - and therefore he may essentially be creating false memories of the event? Anyway, I can't prove it. I am also concerned that (given the lawful vs chaotic discussion before) Adolin's moral compass is less intrinsic to him and is actually more extrinsic. He knows how he should behave and follows those rules. This (to me) helps explain why he doesn't appear to question things like social rank, slavery, prostitution, starvation, and wholesale slaughter that he encounters every day. We don't see him discuss these things with anyone, he doesn't seem to question them and his behaviour whilst decent to individuals, does nothing to improve the lots of people he isn't directly interacting with. Its ok - most of us actually behave this way - it is difficult to change society, but Adolin is is a position to make things better and yet he doesn't. I would hope that if his moral compass is pointing "due Good" then we would see him act more to improve the lives of his people than we have seen thus far. If he is essentially "neutral" then I would expect him to maintain the status quo. Interestingly, as I was reading through Adolin sections in tWoK this morning, I realised that Adolin has held a grudge against Sadeas for far longer than anyone else. He is already against Sadeas at the beginning of tWoK - even though there is no specific moment that we see that seems to cause it. Sure, he can see Dalinar and Sadeas don't get along, but Dalinar gives him plenty of opportunity to come round with regards to his attitude to Sadeas before the Tower. The more I think about it, the more disturbing it is, because whilst the grudge makes sense in WoR, it doesn't actually make that much sense in tWoK - and yet we see him viscerally angry several times at Sadeas, even though the man hasn't actually done anything specific besides being obnoxious. It seems to be an excessive amount of feeling for a man who (to our knowledge) has not actually done anything specific against Dalinar or his House at that point. If anyone has insight on this I'd appreciate hearing it. Indeed - he actually thinks about killing Sadeas more than once and even threatens him verbally. Sadeas doesn't take it seriously (to his cost). Adolin doesn't seem to look for "justice" (note that Navani does - she writes a glyphward of it) at all during this time. The closest he gets is the idea of the duel, which is kind of ok given the way the court seems to handle this kind of thing. The thing is that Adolin wants him in the arena (or similar) before that and when he thinks about the duel it is for his own personal satisfaction rather than justice. Indeed, had Shallan not come up with the idea for the "boon" from the King, I think the rest of House Kholin would have been essentially content to just carry on and find another means of handling Sadeas (note that assassination is never discussed for example) that didn't resort to his death. They also want action against Sadeas, but none are so focused on it as Adolin. Sorry, no cultivationspren for you. You'll have to make do with being another order of KR

I have been trying to figure out what Lift's boon and curse are. I think that her boon is that she can metabolize food into Stormlight (although there might be more to it than that). I used to think that her curse might therefore be, on the flip side, that she cannot draw in Stormlight. There was a discussion thread started a few weeks ago that I found, where this was confirmed - Lift can only derive Stormlight from food, which could be seen as both a blessing and a curse. But there are several reasons to believe that Lift's curse has something to do with nightmares. There is a line in Edgedancer seems to suggest that Lift doesn't like falling asleep, and at the time I thought it was because her curse was having frequent nightmares. Looking back, I am much less certain that this line actually suggests Lift has nightmares, although at the time I read it I was very certain. But there is some evidence in Oathbringer to suggest I might be right. For one thing, we don't know what the Nightwatcher is the spren of - I'm pretty sure this was discussed in an earlier thread. The Stormfather is the spren of the storm, the Sibling is the spren of Urithiru (possibly), and I think that the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams. It would make a lot of sense, since people go to the Nightwatcher to make their dreams come true, and she rewards them with something good (like a dream) and something bad (like a nightmare). This is further suggested in OB when Dalinar visits the Nightwatcher. So I think it's a real possibility that the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams. There is an element in Oathbringer that makes me think that Dalinar's visions are sort of like dreams, and so it seems plausible that the Nightwatcher might be able to influence them - the fact that Lift can enter Dalinar's visions. Because Lift can enter his visions, it makes me wonder if her curse is somehow related to the nightmares of other people. I think that the Nightwatcher, being the spren of dreams, cursed her so that every time she sleeps, she sees other people's dreams - "a life she couldn't have" - or other people's nightmares - " a life that terrified her." So Lift is able to enter Dalinar's visions because they are essentially dreams. The Stormfather himself makes a comment when Lift appears that makes it seem like that the Nightwatcher somehow orchestrated Lift's ability to enter the visions. I think it seems possible that the Nightwatcher actually extended her powers to Lift. The Nightwatcher is a spren, and Lift is more sprenlike than normal humans - she is partially in the Cognitive realm at all times, which allows her to touch Wyndle. Lift is also able to turn food into Stormlight, and the Nightwatcher is very connected with Cultivation, who is connected with growth, food and vegetation. And Lift can enter other people's dreams, while the Nightwatcher is the spren of dreams (according to my theory). I am starting to think that Cultivation is launching a major plot behind the scenes to topple Odium in a way he least expects it, and that her plan has something to do with her possible influence over Taravangian, and her possible influence over Lift. I am not sure how Lift's potential ability to see other people's dreams relates to her boon and curse, or if I am wrong about this whole thing, but it's definitely interesting to think about.

"I need you to kill Lopen." Dorvan Tekiel said to the group of assembled Skaa. Dorvan had slipped into his role quite nicely, impersonating someone as important as Tekiel has proved hard, especially considering the 'humble' background he had, but by now it was second nature for Dorvan. The assembled Skaa gave him a salute, one that was low key enough that it could be done in front of actual nobles, and it would go unnoticed. The Skaa gathered their weapons, and moved out. "I need you to kill Dorvan" Lopen said to the group of assembled Hazekillers Lopen had never really played much of the 'noble game,' preferring to spend him time hunting the skaa. To many this was considered strange, especially given his prestigious background. The assembled Hazekillers gave him a salute, a clean crisp one that drew attention to all that were watching. The Hazekillers gathered their weapons, and moved out. The assembled soldiers moved towards their target, moving as silently as possible through the night, hoping to go unnoticed for as long as possible before they were to kill their target. The group passed another group of assembled soldiers, but they both just passed by each other and pretended that they didn't notice the other. It was not worth risking an encounter with a Mistborn, and jeopardizing their mission. The assembled forces slipped into the keep, and approached the designated room. The man standing inside seemed to be waiting for something to return, their thoughts slightly distracted, and the assembled soldiers took that moment to strike. "You've returned already?" The man asked, his eyes going wide a moment after, realizing that they were not the soldiers he had sent out. The man reached out with allomancy, attempting to stop the approaching soldiers, but it proved useless. The soldiers moved forward, and killed their mark. The soldiers retraced their steps, passing the same group of soldiers they had seen going out, still not risking a confrontation, and returned to the man who had sent them out, only to find him lying dead on the ground. Lopen has died! He was a Noble Iron misting! Randuir had died! He was a Skaa Zinc misting! Favor (updated): 85 86 81 60 Someone should have bothered me about the cycle not going up! I had this all ready and thought I had submitted it, but I hadn't. Sorry about it being 24 hours late... This cycle will end: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=LG40+D6+end&iso=20171212T19&p1=4975 Player list:

Kinda off topic but.. If we don't get a scene with "Captain" Kaladin and bridge 4 flying on a fabrial sky ship singing seasky-shanties I WILL RIOT.

Yep, I think this hits the core issue. Shallan is broken at the moment. So I don't know how to split up quotes with this format, but I'll answer like this. I'm sorry if it's kinda weird to read, or if the detail I answer in is annoying! I genuinely don't mean to annoy. I just enjoy these discussions.

I think an example is in order. From mistborn era 2:

<== created by @Sunbird <== Created by @Ookla the Indefatigable

I thought it was interesting because I don't interpret it as an F u, but as a sign of respect. Even though he's opposing Kal, Moash still respects his former leader and friend. Maybe even still considers himself a member of bridge four.

When I read that in school, I leaned in really close to my book and whispered "You f**king b**ch"

So I'm pretty sure the second letter is from Autonomy. And here I will explain why. I will attempt to explain how Trell, Pajti, the Sand Lord, are all seperate pieces of Autonomy. This does bear some similarity to my Spirit Realm thread, which is in my signature. But the most important thing is this WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8605 So I think that by splitting up her mind, Bavadin became more powerful. How? Investiture. This is the hack here. She split it, and used the investiture to grow a new personality. A persona. An Aspect. Almost like harnessing the ability of Investiture to create sentient life. Then, with these personas, she is able to grasp more of this Autonomous investiture than she could if she was just one mind. It's a hack. One that appears to have created a collective. And with these personas, she will spread her Autonomous doctrine across the Cosmere.

I had an idea in Discord tonight, upon discussing the Recreance. We ended up talking about spren and Shadesmar, of course, and it got me thinking about deadeye spren. Remember in Way of Kings, in the first vision of the Recreance? There's a huge amount of missing Shardblades. That's not even close to all the Windrunners (this wasn't the main front of the war), and that's just one of the orders. Granted, Skybreakers didn't betray their oaths, and there was only one Bondsmith in that generation, but there's still seven other orders full of Radiants who would have broke their oaths. This is to say that there is a metric truckload of missing Blades and this has never come up in the text again. But we do get more information on Shardblades in Oathbringer. They are deadeyes in Shadesmar and they are common enough in Shadesmar that they have a common term for them. Now, some background. It seems that deadeye spren are actually separate from their Blades in Shadesmar: This suggests that deadeyes are always in Shadesmar, regardless of the state of the Blade (summoned or unsummoned) in the Physical Realm. But if deadeye spren are separate entities, isn't that a bit strange? Adolin cannot summon Maya in Shadesmar. So these two entities are linked intrinsically. That's obvious, because in the Physical Realm, the Blade is the spren after all, but is a curious split between the dead spren in Shadesmar and the "corpse" in the Physical. (It seems highly unlikely that the deadeye would vanish when the user of the Blade summoned it to the Physical Realm. I certainly don't get that impression from Ico. Additionally, it isn't like when Syl is dismissed she goes back to Shadesmar.) Anyway. Here's my idea: what if somehow some spren, or other entities took Shardblades--which were unbonded, of course--through a Perpendicularity into Shadesmar, in an effort to revive some deadeyes? I don't know what would happen if you actually take a Shardblade into Shadesmar. There's a lot of possibilities. I don't think the Blades could manifest as Blades in Shadesmar, so maybe they'd just... go back "into" their deadeye spren? That's my idea. A lot of deadeyes in Shadesmar already "have" their Shardblades inside them. It didn't fix them, but it did prevent them from being found in the Physical Realm. Not all deadeyes would be like this--the ones we've seen, from Ico, tend to wander to the person "holding" their corpse--but for the Blades that are unbonded? They wouldn't wander around at all. I realize this is a pretty crackpot theory, but I think if you asked, "where are the missing Shardblades?" the answer being "in Shadesmar, as some of the deadeyes" seems reasonable. Previous hypotheses were things like, "Maybe there's a giant cache of them somewhere!" or "Maybe the Skybreakers collected them!" But they'd probably be found in two millennia since the Recreance if it was a cache, and I think the Skybreakers having a cache of somewhere like a thousand Shardblades seems crazy. Wouldn't there have been a situation where you'd use one of your thousand extra Blades? But you know where absolutely no Rosharan would have found the Blades since the Recreance? In Shadesmar. They'd probably be pretty difficult to separate from the deadeye who metabolized that Physical part of them... That's my midnight theory for you all. It's probably wrong, but at least you all remembered that there's a crapload of missing Blades around. I'd like to hear your ideas for where they might be.

I came to this realization when discussing Bavadin and the races of Yolen in another thread. We know that there are three races on Yolen: dragons, humans and Sho Del. We don't know much about any of them, but the ones we know the least of is probably the Sho Del. Yet, I feel that Ambition is probably one of them. First off, I think every race should have at least one representative among the 16, so at least one has to be Sho Del. Secondly, we know the real name of a bunch of the vessels, and among all of them (Rayse, Bavadin, Edgli, Ati, Leras, Tanavast, Skai, Aona and Uli Da) Uli Da is the one that stands out, which makes me suspect a non-human race. So why do I think that Uli Da is Sho Del? Well, first off, the name has a space in the middle, just like the name of the Sho Del themselves. And secondly, we know a dragon, and his name is Frost, which doesn't seem to fit with Uli Da, linguistic-wise. So my conclusion is that Uli Da has to be Sho Del. Apologizes if this has been discussed before.

When you cover your bookshelf in Christmas lights, and @Ookla the Rusty says it looks like it is "gleaming with Stormlight," so you call it an Invested bookshelf. And now my whole room is covered in lights, so I guess I have access to very large amounts of Investiture at the moment.

I thought Odium didn't want to become too invested on a planet, so it still seems weird to me that he would stick around Ashyn long enough to become their God. I think it's more likely that Odium showed up on Roshar at around the same time as humans, making it a correlation vs causation problem

Just want to say that I am greatly appreciative that folks who are satisfied with the state of the romantic arc at the end of OB are coming back to engage in this topic. I gave upvotes to each of you in gratitude. If I weren't passing my evening being ill, I would take some time to give some rebuttals, and ask some questions. But alas, I will save those for later in the week.

May be that's why Mraize wants to bring Sja-Anat to the GB so he can bond her... Imagine what a scary pair they would be

This logic is awesome. It also means that @IllNsickly and I and Ben Affleck are the same person, because you never saw us on the same page...

If he'd splintered the Shard, he may not have foreseen this as a possibility. Something has definitely changed recently. In OB he speaks as though just splintering isn't enough and the fragments of Honor's power must be dealt with. Ambition, if this is true and he is aware of it, could be a very good reason for that change.

Do Dresden

Quick Arcanum clarification: the Pending Review tag is not for transcription concerns. Peter will be reviewing event transcriptions going forward, to make sure Brandon didn't misspeak and contradict canon, or something like that. That's what the marker is for - WoBs that Peter hasn't had a chance to veto yet. (Granted, I've got no idea how he can veto a RAFO. But that's what Pending Review actually means.)

A few photos of mountain scenery I took this week Sunset turning the eastern mountains a lovely pink (1 photo): From my birding trip this morning, a much closer view of the mountains in the sunlight (3 photos):

Thank you. I completely disagree, but in trying to argue my point you made me realize fully why I disagree so hard. Bavadin has been known to have many different personas. Many faces through which she acts. But they're all Bavadin. Not Autonomy. Bavadin. If this thing is Autonomy, Bavadin is gone. This is not acting. It's not playing a role. This appears to be a true collective, in that there's no sense of self, just of us. Thats not what that WoB describes.

That's what I saw after firing up the Facebook: Stormfather gets on with the times, it seems. Now I'm waiting for random text messages with "Unite them!"...

You know, I was planning to troll and necro so I could become the King's Wit again. It appears the Destination came before my Journey. Cremfather.

Why does this exist

When your friend just started reading The Way of Kings and he says, "I wish I had a shard sword and shard armor" and you just glare at him and say, "We do not refer to Shardplate as "shard armor", and we do not refer to Shardblades as "shard swords". These are rules you must learn to follow, my young padawan."

When you read A Christmas Carol and imagine the Christmas Past ghost as an honorspren, the Christmas Present ghost as Rock, and the Christmas Future ghost as an Unmade.

When you accidentally spell protein like protien. When you think you hear someone say that their teacher keeps pairing them up with thaylens. When you spend all of your free time pondering the mysteries of the Cosmere. When your teacher askes you to write about if you could be friends with anyone, who would it be, and you write a giant paragraph about how Kaladin would be the coolest friend ever. When Christmas is a time to get people to buy books for you.

I could see it. He'd need some gray, is all. Though...we should probably make this a separate thread and stop hijacking. I think there's a movie thread already somewhere... But I did find the perfect Sadeas...

There's a lot of yada-yada in that "basically". He's basically like Kaladin, except that every chance he had to make a horrible decision, he took it. He's basically like Kaladin except he kills in cold blood. He's basically like Kaladin except he goes against every Ideal of the Knights Radiant. All the 'excepts' are what make him nothing like Kaladin, anymore.

I haven’t seen anyone post this yet the person who made it can be found here: https://www.google.com/amp/tatter-demallion.tumblr.com/post/100307590545/i-love-that-dalinar-basically-ordered-the/amp

Further to this, there's a theory going around (which I think is basically correct) that this was the reason for the Recreance. The False Desolation and the Recreance seem to have happened in a very short time horizon of each other and imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram was what ended the False Desolation. The Radiants, who now know that surgebinding destroyed Ashyn and that Honour is dying, manage to completely lobotomise almost the entire Singer population of Roshar and so confirm that surgebinding is, in fact, something terrible and to be avoided. From there it doesn't seem implausible that they would abandon their oaths especially as they now believe that having imprisoned Ba-Ado-Mishram that forms of power are gone and there isn't really a reason for them anymore.

When you see he has a 'Mystery Project' on the go:

Um, my read indicates that Cusicesh is one of the intermediate spren between a sapient spren and the Stormfather/Nightwatcher level. The sapient spren are spren like Syl and Pattern.

Sharders right now: