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Preface: The most part of it is solidly grounded in facts and WoBs. You can rely on it. Some part of it is reasonable speculation, so you should not treat is as a fact, but like a theory. Sorry it's so long. The Letters. The one in The Way of Kings was written by Hoid to Frost (WoB), and the one in Words of Radiance was Frost's response to Hoid. The Letters are written after events of First Mistborn Era (WoB). In Oathbringer we got three: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters#Oathbringer_Letters What can we conclude about the identities of the writers and recipient? Well, the first thing is that two of them are adressed to Cephandrius - known as Hoid's alias - and the Third to "Dear Friend", but it's commonly assumed it's also adressed to Hoid. The Third writer almost certainly is Harmony. But my interests are in the First and Second. First, some WoBs on the topic: What are the Shards we have seen or know of? Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Harmony - Ruin & Preservation (Vessel: Sazed) Endowment (Vessel: Edgli) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Odium (Vessel: Rayse) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) The last two are questionable, as Brandon may be refering to the knowledge from books and not necessarily from WoBs. But then we have another WoB that will help us narrow down the identity of the first writer: What are the worlds we have seen? Taldain Sel Scadrial Nalthis Roshar (depending on how you understand "have seen" - also Ashyn and Braize) Threnody First of the Sun Well, this excludes Shard not on a planet and possibly Ambition, as Ambition is not on Threnody. I also doubt the Shard that is hiding is on the First of the Sun, but we'll get to that later. With Harmony having written the Third and the First Letter mentioning Rayse, Aona, Skai and Uli Da by name, we're left with: Autonomy Endowment Honor (dead and Splintered) Cultivation Judging by the fact that the Letter is supposedly a response for Hoid's plea for help against Rayse and that the writer is dissapointed that so few of the Shards kept to the agreement of not interfering with each other, we can also remove Cultivation. Which leaves us with two possible candidates: Autonomy Endowment If we believe Khriss words in Taldain essay about Autonomy's interference with other planets, it leaves us with Endowment as having written the First Letter. The Third Letter is written almost certainly by Harmony (I say that just because Brandon did not outright confirm that in a WoB but I doubt it's not Harmony). Second Letter [edit] Brandon has confirmed on 16th December that the Second Letter was written by Autonomy So we need to update our list of who might have written the Second Letter. It also mentions Rayse, so we can cross out Odium: Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Devotion (Vessel: Aona) Dominion (Vessel: Skai) Honor (Vessel: Tanavast) Cultivation Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) Well, that's still a lot, isn't it? Well, let's assume that these Letters are really responses to Hoid's plea for help against Odium. It doesn't make sense then that he'd write to Rosharan Shards. We can cross out Cultivation and Honor (who is also very, very, very dead at the time of Oathbringer). The Letter in The Way of Kings also mentions Aona and Skai being dead and their Shards Splintered, so I think we can reasonably assume nobody has Ascended to them since. Which leaves us with... Autonomy (Vessel: Bavadin) Ambition (Vessel: Uli Da - WoBs: #1 #2) Survival Shard - unknown Shard that just wants to hide and survive the Shard not on a planet (NOT the Survival Shard - although take note that it's not impossible for the Survival Shard to be not on a planet) At that point there is no much to go off of - unless we assume Brandon in that first WoB up there at the beginning of this wall of text meant the Shards we know from books, not WoBs. Which leaves us with only two: Autonomy and Ambition. I'm gonna analyse each separately. But first, a WoB on the topic: The line "That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic." probably refers to an earlier WoB in that event which confirmed that all Investiture in Cosmere is associated with a Shard, even if it was not on Yolen on the time of the Shattering. It got assigned to Shards, but it's not part of what the Vessel of the Shard commands. Two important things that we can take from this WoB: First of the Sun has Investiture that is directly associated with a Shard and the island Patji is a Shard. With big asterisk. one of the letters in Oathbringer references First of the Sun Reading through the letters, the only one left that can reference any place is the Second Letter. (Unless we take " I noticed your many intrusions into my land " from the First Letter as reference to First of the Sun, but that's another can of worms, one I do not intend to open). It's either the place the writer is or the Obrodai that's being referenced. For now, let's analyse possibilities of Autonomy and Ambition. Autonomy Certainly a fan favorite, if I may say so. Many of us believe it's Autonomy, and there are certain clues that point to it, although some of that fierce conviction seems to be based on the assumption that the Shard assaulting Scadrial during the Second Mistborn Era is Autonomy. Not an unreasonable assumption, given what we know of Autonomy meddling with other worlds (if Khriss essay on Taldain is to be believed), having multiple religions or having entire pantheons where every worshipped god is actually Bavadin. Especially the last one seems to point in that direction, when you remember that the islands that Patji is part of are called Pantheon. Some people believe that Autonomy's modus operandi of creating personas is the reason for why the Letter is written by a collective. It's reasonable, but personally I doubt it - there's one thing in crafting personas and letting them attract attention, but it's not a reason for Autonomy to actually be a mind collective. Which leads us to... Ambition That is my favorite. Yes, Uli Da is dead, and Ambition is Splintered (WoB). But... Splintering can be a vague term sometimes. And we've seen Ambition's influence (which most of us ascribe to Shades of Threnody) and things that happened with Ambition have had ramifications across many places in the cosmere. Recently Brandon added that "this specific Splintering has had far-reaching effects" (WoB). From essay on First of the Sun we know Khriss is certain there is no Shard there... but her essays are more contemporary (sometime after Ascension of Harmony, and definitely long before Sixth of the Dusk happens: #1 #2) and she does not know what we know about First of the Sun: #1 #2. That is weird: ... since now Brandon has stated that Patji is a Shard. (With big asterisk). Hm... What if Ambition is not on a planet... what if it's on planets? What if Ambition's Splinters - maybe larger than the usual Splinters like spren or seons or skaze, but instead massive like Unmade, Nightwatcher or even Stormfather - have formed a collective mind? It would explain why the writer is speaking like a group. Let's see what is said in the Letter: It implies mutliple beings. They are hiding part of their being on a world and were surprised and are intrigued how Hoid has managed to locate them there. It would explain why Khriss is certain there is no Shard there - there is just a Splinter and it actively hides its presence. They have many realms. They wish to be alone. They do not believe in interfering with another Shards - does it fit the meddling Autonomy? I don't think so. Admiration of his initiative - it would be strange if it's Ambition, right? Since Odium has mortally wounded Ambition. But... Preservation admired Rashek just because he did not change. Even though he was a tyrant and responsible for many deaths, it was a quality to be admired. Why then cannot Ambition admire Odium's initiative and will to act? They have claimed a world - for me it fits Ambition to claim multiple worlds, to add it to their many realms. If it was Autonomy, why an avatar is beginning to manifest? Autonomy's personas are more of a masks Bavadin dons. And the new avatar was instilled with some preference - it suggests truly another mind, part of Ambition's collective, and not just a persona Autonomy uses. This reeks of Ambition to me - for Hoid to be deemed worthy of further communication, he must prove himself by overcoming tests (perhaps getting to Patji's eye?). It's only fitting that one can earn Ambition's respect by overcoming obstacles - it's a proof of your determination, will to act, drive... ambition. tl;dr: Harmony almost certainly wrote the Third Letter, the First one was written likely by Endowment and Second Letter was written either by Autonomy or Ambition (and I personally think the latter). Second Letter is confirmed to be written by Autonomy.

Oh this is much better - not quite so many posts for me to catch up on this morning Phew. *wipes brow* Yes I agree - I see her having a similar moment to Kaladin's moment where he said "Fleet kept running" - just before he says the 3rd Ideal. She hasn't yet properly realised that she is not a monster (what she takes from the Girl who Looked Up story imo) - tho I believe she is on her way (hence she allowed herself to be happy at her wedding). She needs a story about being split/reunification in my mind - and then she can take that and work with it. It works - WoB is that Shallan is subconsciously bisexual so that aspect of her could be pushed onto Radiant. I like the way this ties with the scars - the stone and the scars represent his emotional burdens that he has to set down so that he can view himself as whole and undamaged. The scars, to me anyway, represent more than simply his time as a slave - they represent his failures as well. I wonder if he is transferring the idea of his failures to the rock - and then once he is ready, he can put it down. Perhaps keep the rock somewhere as a form of shrine/memorial so he can still remember but doesn't have to have it as a constant reminder to him, literally weighing him down. True - I hope not too much tho (Kaladin is my fave) - I was surprised how much time Kaladin got in WoR and how much time Shallan got in OB. I suspect that in SA4 we'll still get a lot of Dalinar, but perhaps less Kaladin and Shallan as a result of the time. I am looking forward to the Eshonai/Venli flashbacks and obviously Venli will give us loads of info we wouldn't otherwise get from our other MCs, but I don't want to lose too much of Shallan/Kaladin/Dalinar - mainly because I am assuming that at least 1 of them will progress in book 4 (Kaladin is my guess) - depending on exactly how many oaths Dalinar has actually said. Do we have WoB on that? Make it so. Oh wait, that's your line Shallan definitely doesn't fracture at that point in WoR. The key is who is named when she thinks - Shallan never thinks as Veil in WoR afaik (i can't find an example anyway). She sort of thinks of Veil as separate but it is still really more of a mask she wears to reveal aspects of her own personality that she normally hides. She only wishes "Veil" was in the chasms once - and then she goes on to manage just fine on her own. Later in OB we seem her think as Veil or Radiant and refer to Shallan in the third person. I don't think this is resolved because they get sidetracked by deciding who will be king and then Shallan pushing for Jasnah to take the throne. Dalinar is horrified when he finds out. He isn't about to go and make a proclamation because he needs to protect Adolin from the fall-out. We see a week gap between Dalinar finding out and the wedding but the announcement isn't made and I don't think it is going to be - which frankly is a political mistake (you should reveal things asap to prevent them leaking out and being used by your political enemies). This means someone else can find out the secret and use it against Adolin in some way. Blackmail, undermining his political power, his trial/execution etc. There are loads of possible ways this could go. Dalinar's view of Adolin is now very different as well. He specifically thinks that "Adolin [isn't] the man he thought he was". He still loves his son, but he genuonely thought Adolin was steady and a better man than Dalinar is. Now he knows Adolin is neither of these things - or at least is not them all the time. Dalinar doesn't trust himself. Its a constant recurring theme. Now he may not trust Adolin either. We may see his behavior gradually change over the time-skip. Even if Dalinar manages to get over it (not sure how - I mean it isn't something most parents can just brush aside - even while they still love their kids) it doesn't mean that there aren't many other people who wouldn't try to profit from the situation. What about the Skybreakers? I can't see Szeth loving this fact for example. The Ghostbloods want to make a play of some sort for power and this kind of secret could be huge. If they find out they could use it as further leverage over Shallan and Adolin. I mean, they may need to blackmail them to force Shallan to deal with Sja-Anat which seems likely to happen in SA4 rather than in the timeskip. Lastly - of course such a statement would be damaging. It would suggest that Dalinar ordered Adolin to kill his political opponent. The truth wouldn't even matter then - people would worry (with good reason) that the Blackthorn was re-emerging and that he was prepared to do anything to seize power -including using his son as an assassin. I disagree with this so entirely. Brandon uses minor plots all the time and has them drag through under the radar. Mistborn is literally filled with minor plots that seem to go slowly/be dropped then randomly appear later on and prove to be significant. This is by no means a complete list, it is just a few threads I could come up with quickly to make my point. Storms he even has scenes that are reflected in each of the three books. The difference between Mistborn and SA is that the first Mistborn trilogy is complete so we can see the threads tie up. He cares what his fellows think of him. If he didn't he wouldn't worry so much about his appearance. And of course he cares what the Sadeas troops think of him - he will just want it to be negative. Point is that we don't know because we don't see it. I am happy that Adolin was simply being a decent human being. But I can't prove it. This is my point. We need to be careful whenever we push motivations onto him - whether we see those motivations as good or bad is irrelevant. Going forward, if his motivations change we also likely won't see it and thus we cannot be sure if they are changing or how. Can you tell me what you mean? I didn't find Adolin inconsistent at all except for his murder of Sadeas. He still looks at other women, he still likes socialising in winehouses, he is a bit of a snob (think the menagerie is "low") but nothing too awful, he is still decent to those beneath him socially - aside from Kaladin at the beginning (and thats a personal grudge which he gets over). I can't think of many inconsistencies at all. If he'd been inconsistent I'd have found him more interesting - but he's predictable to the point of being boring in WoR (imo). So I had a look for som WoBs on this and I'll quote them below - these are from https://wob.coppermind.net/basic_search/?query=adolin the search I did and all come from BS. So that last one completely refutes the idea that it is going to be dropped. That was from 2014 but just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. If there is a WoB that shows nothing will happen that is more recent then we can consider it done as a plot, but as far as I could find, there is nothing more recent that refutes this statement. For one thing, we haven't seen any character react extremely negatively to it yet. I didn't say "personal" I said "vengeance". Adolin, as you pointed out, identifies with his House. He was acting to gain revenge for his House. And he did so when he was "irrevocably" enraged - apart from a tiny part of him that was "amused". Amused? I mean that, if nothing else, is sociopathic. No matter how much you hate someone, the act of murder is not amusing .

Did anyone else think it was weird how when Szeth pops up during the battle for Thaylen City, everyone is just sort of okay with him being there? What Lift thinks: What Dalinar thinks: What Jasnah thinks: This last quote by Jasnah almost seems to be bordering on humorous, as if she's saying, "Hahaha, the Assassin in White, what a joke, I never thought I'd see him on our side! Sure, he brutally murdered my father, and half the rulers of Roshar, and then was killed himself by Kaladin so he's basically a zombie as far as we know, but we'll take all the help we can get!" This was just really weird to me, and seemed like a major oversight. You would think that at least Jasnah would be threatened by Szeth - she seemed to have a really close relationship with Gavilar, why is she so nonchalant about meeting his murderer? And why are they all okay with Szeth becoming Dalinar's bodyguard and joining the Knights Radiant - do none of them think for a moment that he might be trying to stab Dalinar in the back while no one is looking? Nobody has questions for him, nobody attacks him, nobody screams because he's apparently come back from the dead. I feel like the comeback of Szeth is supposed to be really cinematic and cool - he sweeps onto the battlefield, clothed in white, wielding a black sword, redeeming himself... and everyone is so awestruck that they conveniently forget the fact that he is the most feared, notorious and dangerous criminals in the world, and HE WAS KILLED by Kaladin as far as they know, so why is he even alive? I get that they're in a tight place and they're not going to interfere if Szeth is helping their cause, but everyone seems so unfazed by his appearance - they're mildly surprised, and a bit confused, but then they get over it almost immediately and he's just one of the gang as far as they're concerned. Did anyone else feel like the return of Szeth was really rushed, and that it was weird how easily everyone just accepted him as a good guy?

Is it to fast to think that at least one of the unintended side-effects of imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram was that all of the parsh Connected to her at the time were robbed of not just their forms of power but all forms, locking them into the previously unknown slaveform? I had always assumed the Parsh ending up in slaveform was a purposeful action taken by the Knights Radiant. If it is instead an unintended consequence of defeating one of the world's great evils, then it really muddies up the morality waters. Enslaving an enemy is one morally questionable decision. Enslaving them and purposefully robbing them of their minds is much, much more questionable, in my eyes. But what should they have done, if this is true? The Knights know they had to defeat Ba-Ado-Mishram, if they have the chance. They succeed. Hurrah! But then all the (presumably)thousands and thousands of former enemy combatants are now mindless drones. What do you do? Slaughter them? Leave them to their own devices to die of starvation and the elements? Care for them until they all die off? Or enslave them? This makes the human/parsh relationship much more interesting to me, because before I was pretty much thinking the Knights Radiant were real dicks for the whole slavefom thing. You couldn't give them dullform? Or just mateform? This would bring a lot more context for me.

It's possible that the be all end all purpose of the death rattles is to efficiently interrupt or scramble the future sight of others (such as truthwatchers on a battlefield), by using very low energy prophecies. Consider how the diagram is meant to be in part prophetic, and Renarin (someone with some form of future vision) acts as a gigantic hole in it. Consider in mistborn how

Oh my God! The latter half of this thread is Gold!! My thoughts about Shallan's character were put to word here precisely. Also that analysis by @PhineasGage was so well done that words spilled out of my hands about the beauty of the chasm sequence. Just wanted to share it with all the S.S Shalladin's crew here Keep up the good work guys. I hope I don't sound like a child with its first toy but the discussions and debates were extra ordinary.

Yes I agree with you completely. I enjoyed OB, but WoR is definitely my favourite so far. I'd go so far as to say tWoK has wonderful scenes, WoR has wonderful sequences (ie more than one scene tied together) and OB has wonderful moments as you said. Those moments might be better than other moments in tWoK or WoR (tho personally I am not so sure about this - eg, Kaladin's 3rd Oath is huge and links to previous scenes - eg Fleet kept running) but overall I was less immersed in the book than I had been for either tWoK or WoR because I didn't just get lost in the story for the same length of time. There are also some threads that are left hanging from WoR/tWoK essentially because it was "too early" to start tying them up yet. I expect SA4 to have more answers/resolutions than OB had as a result. On top of that WoR had a better sense of contrast imo - it went between light and dark much more fluidly. Most of OB felt "dark" in comparison - with good reason given the story, but that lack of "light" meant that the constant "darkness" became oppressive at times. It works as a theme for what is happening and I think it conveys both Dalinar as a person and also what Roshar is going through marvellously, but it also makes me like it less (despite the obvious skill with which it was written).

I had an idea in Discord tonight, upon discussing the Recreance. We ended up talking about spren and Shadesmar, of course, and it got me thinking about deadeye spren. Remember in Way of Kings, in the first vision of the Recreance? There's a huge amount of missing Shardblades. That's not even close to all the Windrunners (this wasn't the main front of the war), and that's just one of the orders. Granted, Skybreakers didn't betray their oaths, and there was only one Bondsmith in that generation, but there's still seven other orders full of Radiants who would have broke their oaths. This is to say that there is a metric truckload of missing Blades and this has never come up in the text again. But we do get more information on Shardblades in Oathbringer. They are deadeyes in Shadesmar and they are common enough in Shadesmar that they have a common term for them. Now, some background. It seems that deadeye spren are actually separate from their Blades in Shadesmar: This suggests that deadeyes are always in Shadesmar, regardless of the state of the Blade (summoned or unsummoned) in the Physical Realm. But if deadeye spren are separate entities, isn't that a bit strange? Adolin cannot summon Maya in Shadesmar. So these two entities are linked intrinsically. That's obvious, because in the Physical Realm, the Blade is the spren after all, but is a curious split between the dead spren in Shadesmar and the "corpse" in the Physical. (It seems highly unlikely that the deadeye would vanish when the user of the Blade summoned it to the Physical Realm. I certainly don't get that impression from Ico. Additionally, it isn't like when Syl is dismissed she goes back to Shadesmar.) Anyway. Here's my idea: what if somehow some spren, or other entities took Shardblades--which were unbonded, of course--through a Perpendicularity into Shadesmar, in an effort to revive some deadeyes? I don't know what would happen if you actually take a Shardblade into Shadesmar. There's a lot of possibilities. I don't think the Blades could manifest as Blades in Shadesmar, so maybe they'd just... go back "into" their deadeye spren? That's my idea. A lot of deadeyes in Shadesmar already "have" their Shardblades inside them. It didn't fix them, but it did prevent them from being found in the Physical Realm. Not all deadeyes would be like this--the ones we've seen, from Ico, tend to wander to the person "holding" their corpse--but for the Blades that are unbonded? They wouldn't wander around at all. I realize this is a pretty crackpot theory, but I think if you asked, "where are the missing Shardblades?" the answer being "in Shadesmar, as some of the deadeyes" seems reasonable. Previous hypotheses were things like, "Maybe there's a giant cache of them somewhere!" or "Maybe the Skybreakers collected them!" But they'd probably be found in two millennia since the Recreance if it was a cache, and I think the Skybreakers having a cache of somewhere like a thousand Shardblades seems crazy. Wouldn't there have been a situation where you'd use one of your thousand extra Blades? But you know where absolutely no Rosharan would have found the Blades since the Recreance? In Shadesmar. They'd probably be pretty difficult to separate from the deadeye who metabolized that Physical part of them... That's my midnight theory for you all. It's probably wrong, but at least you all remembered that there's a crapload of missing Blades around. I'd like to hear your ideas for where they might be.

strap yourselves in nerds, buckle up for some wild revelations: So we have the Shin, a bunch of pasty white, wide-eyed people who like to collect swords, and use Japanese-style honorifics.. yup they're all weaboos.... which leads me to my conclusion: Rayse, their native (to Ashyn) Shardy-boi, who seems to espouse being Passion, once got slighted by something inconsequential, and became the whiny-peebaby we all know and love/hate.... yus that's right Rayse is the god of the patriarchy

I thought of Les Miserables too, and I figured Nale should be Javert. So I rewrote the "Stars" song a bit: STORMS performed by Nalan'Elin, Herald of Justice There, out on Roshar A radiant running Without Honor Cause Honor is dead Ishar be my witness I never shall yield Till I've slaughtered them all Till I've slaughtered them all They know their way, with the surges Mine is the way of the law Those who follow the path of the Skybreakers, shall have their reward And if they fail, as the old Radiants failed The Blades The spren! Storms In your multitudes Scarce to be counted Fueling our magic With stormin light I am the sentinel With a cool Blade Keeping watch on Roshar Keeping watch on Roshar

Time for you both to chill the hell out, @Ookla the Obtuse and @insert_anagram_here. EDIT: Going to be honest, this thread would be a great discussion of Adolin's morality. I think everyone has valid opinions on the matter. For the most part, despite people generally reacting negatively to the OP, it was a pretty cogent discussion. As always, if people attack an opinion, one should not take that as a reflection on you. Those are different things. Take it with grace, anagram. People's emotional reactions aren't always going to fit with a pure logical stance, and most people aren't trained mathematicians. (I say this as a mathematician.) You could also take your own advice, too, and also chill. As for you, @Ookla the Obtuse, you really ought to tone your indignation way down in the future and chill the hell out. Your tone sure didn't help, so I guess I'll have to watch both of you.

Yeah I hope so too. Actually, what I'm hoping for is a SERIOUS Mr. T denoument. Szeth telling Dalinar and Kaladin about T's Diagram, his being behind the assassinations, the killings he hides in his hospitals. I seriously want to see that.

I thought it was interesting because I don't interpret it as an F u, but as a sign of respect. Even though he's opposing Kal, Moash still respects his former leader and friend. Maybe even still considers himself a member of bridge four.

Further to this, there's a theory going around (which I think is basically correct) that this was the reason for the Recreance. The False Desolation and the Recreance seem to have happened in a very short time horizon of each other and imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram was what ended the False Desolation. The Radiants, who now know that surgebinding destroyed Ashyn and that Honour is dying, manage to completely lobotomise almost the entire Singer population of Roshar and so confirm that surgebinding is, in fact, something terrible and to be avoided. From there it doesn't seem implausible that they would abandon their oaths especially as they now believe that having imprisoned Ba-Ado-Mishram that forms of power are gone and there isn't really a reason for them anymore.

*EDIT* @Personification just alerted me, there's a HUGE thread on this already with amazing songs, you can find it here: Scene 1: A man lays prostrate on a circular stone platform, lit by a single spotlight. Behind this solitary figure a sheet with striated bands of different shades of grey roils tempestuously. Another figure, hidden in the darkness stage left, with hair spangled with glowing rubies and wearing a Vorin Havah approaches the prostrate figure while singing: Song 1: Memory (sung to the tune of Memory from Cats) Good Knight, Laid out on the Pavement, Has this man lost his memory? He is weeping alone In the dim light, the petaled shame collects at his feet And his Spren begins to moan. Every dead-voice seems to scream An Abominable witness, The Thrill it claims him, the dead-voices shame him, And he begs for forgiveness. Memory, All alone without Stormlight He can see her from old days She was beautiful then He remembers, he killed her and watched Rathalis burn Now her memory lives again Now for the game part, pick one of your favorite scenes from SLA, pick a song from a Musical, write alternate lyrics and link to a video of the song being sung so that Sharders can sing your altered lyrics to the tune of a musical number. Mwhahahah, let the fun begin.

(One-punch Man meme) Szeth plus Nightblood equals: (Sorry. I couldn't help.)

When your friend just started reading The Way of Kings and he says, "I wish I had a shard sword and shard armor" and you just glare at him and say, "We do not refer to Shardplate as "shard armor", and we do not refer to Shardblades as "shard swords". These are rules you must learn to follow, my young padawan."

I have another crackpot theory: Could Bavadin be a Dysian Aimian, or a member of a similar species that distributes its consciousness across multiple organisms? I keep pondering all the WoBs on how weird Bavadin is, and all the on-screen weirdness of the Dysian Aimians, and I keep making this connection between these things. It seems obvious to me...

When you read A Christmas Carol and imagine the Christmas Past ghost as an honorspren, the Christmas Present ghost as Rock, and the Christmas Future ghost as an Unmade.

I had a good day today. Yesterday was a bad day but today was good. I went out to a friend for Shabbat lunch and spent all afternoon making new friends and playing board games. Then we just got the notice that oathbringer is at the post office. So yesterday I walked into a supermarket and got myself a job there. Tomorrow I'm starting both a scary new job AND Oathbringer (finally!!! To both). I am a little nervous and I am happy.

His actions may not make him a super villain for all of the characters yet(although I’d say regicide is usually a good enough reason for most people), but he is certainly one in Kaladin eyes. The Moash apologists can talk about him “earning” that salute all they want, but it was the salute of a coward. A salute by a man who knew he didn’t deserve to make it, given to the man whom it would hurt the most. A salute abdicating anything left of the man who had earned his place in Bridge Four, and all that was left of his humanity.

Yup we do https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262-oathbringer-glasgow-signing/#e8803 @maxal you may take this the wrong way, but where you are with Adolin's character development is pretty similar to how a lot of us felt about the love triangle resolution; there was so much there and why, why, why didn't Brandon use it when he was the one who wrote it in the first place?!? I think a lot of us have sorted through our feelings (50+ pages of feelings, so many feelings) and basically come to the conclusion that, it's not over. This is the absolute middle book of the 5-book arc, so there is a lot of story left to tell. I personally think the reason Adolin's arc didn't progress is because it is very tied to Shallan's romantic arc; in fact both of them are stuck in the same place as they were in WoR (Sadeas is dead, not much came of it besides the reveals to Shallan and Dalianar which could have happened in the first chapter of OB to be honest; Shallan is still with Adolin and Kaladin still feels like it's not his place to be in the middle, the only thing which came of it was betrothal turned into marriage and we now have plenty of confirmation that Shallan (via Veil) has feelings for Kaladin, whereas that was not so explicit in WoR.) So, I think we will see major shifts on both these fronts in the next book, possibly primarily because we will see major developments for Adolin. One thing I noticed in your post is that in order to deal with your grief over Adolin not doing much (I'm using grief because going through the stages of grief was much referenced on this thread in terms of the love triangle resolution), you are thinking of things in terms of absolutes; I don't think we know a lot of the things you assert we know, and though I understand that it can feel satisfying to do a 180 in order to cope with your disappointment over Adolin's arc (i.e. Brandon will never do anything with Adolin's character), that kind of thinking ends up making me more upset! On a couple specific points: I've found his books to be completely opposite - side characters end up being well-fleshed out. To take Mistborn as an example, in the first book, the focus is tightly on Kelsier and Vin, but by the end we have full story arcs for Marsh, Sazed, Spook, Breeze, TenSoon, and I would even say Dox and Clubs get a lot of nuance. On your point about Brandon not being reflective, he wrote the following about Ham's character in the Mistborn annotations: One thing I have noticed about Brandon, is that he frequently is analyzing the quality of his work and how he can make it better. Since we are at a mid-point of a very long series, it's hard to evaluate where things will be at the end. I think you're right that he won't say now - "I messed up and made Adolin boring" - because that would give away too much future plot by saying Adolin is always going to be boring. Also don't forget we know the betas did bring up the Sadeas point, so that reader reaction has been brought to his attention; he just chose to handle it the way he did. My opinion is that Adolin has the fourth-most viewpoints after our main three; he has, as you note, a ton of backstory and character development; but we just haven't seen any payoff for that backstory and development. I think it's coming! This isn't the case, actually. With the Skybreakers following Odium and Malata working against our main crew (spying and possibly opening the Oathgate to Kholinar), we have seen Radiant discord already. The in-world WoR book excerpts also show divisions between orders. Increased Radiant v. Radiant conflict will almost inevitably become more prominent as the series goes on. I think this is the tricky part... I think I can 99.9% guarantee we will see significant development from Adolin in the future. Now, will you find that development satisfying? I don't know. Based on little hints (e.g. off the top of my head - whitespine, Sadeas killing, Adolin's satisfaction with the Sadeas killing, some of his aggressive actions from Kaladin's PoV before they were friends), I think Brandon could be priming us for a Dark Adolin character arc... If that's the case, I bet that will be hard for a lot of readers to swallow. That's just one way of tying together the hints we have about Adolin's future path, but I am very, very confident he will develop into a less "perfect" character, if only because I have no evidence that Brandon as an author will let his fourth-most prominent character go completely to waste; he just hasn't done that before. (Re. Ham above, he was the equivalent of saying Drehy didn't get enough development.) Anyway, I don't mean this as an attack so I hope you don't take it as such, but I do think your disappointment over Adolin's development in OB has made you look at things in a very absolute manner, which is possibly making you even more disappointed. We have a lot more to see of Adolin in books to come!

"Philosophers will argue whether the glass is half full or half empty. This is of course irrelevant. The only relevant matter is who stole the other half of the fluid from the glass, and where they may be located for summary execution." - Unknown Skybreaker

I think a large part is that things had clearly not been as they previously imagined them for much of the book. The big bad turned up and looked a lot like this: The evil voidbringers turned out to be this: Makes you begin to question everything you know, and when another "bad guy" turns up and begins fighting on your side, you just figure it's something else you got wrong.

I am stepping in to completely and irrevocably back @insert_anagram_here, Adolin is the closest thing we have seen to an amoral actor in all of Storm Light Archives. He acts instinctively without moral compunction, every instance you could possibly bring up, the refutation will always be the same: Did he stop to consider the moral implications of his actions? The answer will always be NO! There is a great divide between the Intuitive man (Michelangelo) and the Analytical man (Leonardo Da Vinci), one acts without conscious thought and lets intuition guide their actions, the other analyzes everything synthetically, breaking everything down into its constituent partst to understand the whole through the sum of its parts. One approach is not more correct than the other. Adolin is not a person that analyzes a situation, he's a person that responds on an intuitive, visceral level to all the problematic situations that life presents him with. He has a solid foundational morality, from his Mom, he has respect for authority and the chain of command from his Dad, but in the grey area between these two Poles of his Morality there is nothing other than a desire to be a good and likeable person. From WoR, we know that the great desire of Adolin is to get back at Sadeas for the wrongs he has done to his family. Insults to Dalinar, the betrayal at the Tower, and generally just being an unrepentant prick. Adolin has been wanting to get Sadeas for a long time. Is he held back from seeking his retribution by a strong internal prohibition against killing? No, he is held back because of an external and accepted moral code for the exacting of personal retribution. The thing that is striking is that he is presented with this golden moment, this point in space and time where he is given due cause to fulfill his long suppressed wish to take out the most active force working against his dad and really the cause of humanity as Adolin sees it, and instead of seeing the murder of Sadeas as a noble act for the greater good of humanity, he is immediately ashamed of what he did. This is the heart of the conflict, this is what makes this whole discussion interesting. I posit (and since I am playing devil's advocate for @insert_anagram_here I hope he/she agrees, this is the point at which his action is immoral. I personally believe that he did the right thing killing Sadeas, the better time to do that would have been at the I'll swap you Oathbringer for a bunch of dirty bridge men meeting, but I can see the moral underpinning of both murders. But instead, what he does is he Murders Sadeas in a pique of rage (the thing that piqued his rage would be justifiable as the reason for killing him, but Adolin drops it in short order) and then hide all the evidence that he did it). Adolin has led, up to this point, the classic unreflected life. He hasn't had any struggles or adversity where he has had to question the deeper mysteries of life. I am not calling him dumb, just inexperienced in hardship. This is where his amorality comes from. He's never known adversity, so he's never had to struggle. Life has been black and white for him, mirroring Szeth's journery but less obvious. He intuitively does what he thinks is right, but this is not based on a solid, reasoned morality. He is noble in a lot of what he does, but this does not come from a moral code, it comes from an intuitive sense (inherited from his mother) of what is right. This is all A'priori not synthetic. He has led a life that causes him to question that which doesn't fit into his understanding of the world and not to question how his understanding doesn't fit with the world. He intuitively killed Sadeas (he had wanted to for a LONG TIME) and he feels no guilt or shame. The implicit morality of this action is simple expediency, that's it. It was convenient for him to kill him and he has no fear of repercussions (to me this is extreme amorality).

Oh, I didn't see this thread before! I wrote this ages ago when 'Let it Go' was still popular, and when my obsession with Mistborn needed an outlet. Spoilers for Hero of Ages: I'm still pretty proud of this actually.

I think OB suffers too much from "middle-book syndrome" to be the best. Add to that general expectations for it to be better than WoR which was better than WoK, and it feels worse by comparison than it actually is, imo. Also, while WoK and WoR have some truly wonderful scenes, in my mind OB only has some wonderful moments. Those moments don't last as long as a scene, and so my feeling of wonder and awe don't last as long; when I go back for a re-read of them, the moment is quickly found and gone again. WoR has Shallan with Hoid when she's a child; Shallan and Adolin go to the Zoo with Kaladin, plus Hoid!; and of course the Chasm Scenes, which is one of my favorite scenes written in any book ever. WoK has Shallan going mad from being stalked by spren, and the Battle at the Tower. Both have their small wonderful moments, although nothing compared to Dalinar's "I am Unity" or Teft's "I will protect those that I hate, even if I am the one that I hate the most [paraphrased]". WoK is strong and great, and while I'm in general more upset at WoR than I am with WoK because of reasons I went into at great length after its release, I love it for far more reasons. OB is a fine book, but imo a solid 7 standing next to a couple of 9s.

There's a lot of yada-yada in that "basically". He's basically like Kaladin, except that every chance he had to make a horrible decision, he took it. He's basically like Kaladin except he kills in cold blood. He's basically like Kaladin except he goes against every Ideal of the Knights Radiant. All the 'excepts' are what make him nothing like Kaladin, anymore.

I have a fear that the cookie wars have gone on too long and are wrecking the experience of new comers on the site. The intro threads have turned into a vicious battle field of recruitment, where people are flooded by devious posts to steal breath, have parts of their soul stolen, or fed pieces of investiture. I think that there needs to be a set of rules that the guilds follow in terms of recruitment on the intro threads so that the they can be used to introduce people to the website like they supposed to. People should be able to feel welcome on the site for what they contribute, and not just for their membership to your particular group. After thinking for a while, I though of a few guidelines that guilds could use to help make peoples entrance into the site more enjoyable. Here they are: Giving new people a reputation point if you try to recruit them. Making sure that you ask them a question about them, whether it be about what books they have read, or what their favorite character is, try to make them feel welcome on the site. If someone from at least two more guilds/groups has tried to recruit them, don't also post something trying to recruit them to a third place I would say that warning someone about the dangers of being in a specific group is fine, just don't make you post to their thread solely about how the other group is terrible try to follow the other bullet points above. Also, if your going to warn about how another group is trying to lie to them, don't use that as an opportunity to recruit them into your guild. I.e. Someone offers them a cookie, you reply with saying that they are trying to take your soul and they should try your completely safe investiture as an alternative. These points aren't supposed to be final, if anyone has anything that they want to add or discuss, please post something about it.

I hate him for making the salute in that moment. It was sticking a metaphorical spear through Kaladin, after putting the real one through Elhokar. Strangely, I have an easier time justifying his murder of Elhokar than the world’s most hurtful F you that he gave to Kaladin. I now have Kaladin as a huge favorite to be murdering Moash eventually. Honor speed

I came to this realization when discussing Bavadin and the races of Yolen in another thread. We know that there are three races on Yolen: dragons, humans and Sho Del. We don't know much about any of them, but the ones we know the least of is probably the Sho Del. Yet, I feel that Ambition is probably one of them. First off, I think every race should have at least one representative among the 16, so at least one has to be Sho Del. Secondly, we know the real name of a bunch of the vessels, and among all of them (Rayse, Bavadin, Edgli, Ati, Leras, Tanavast, Skai, Aona and Uli Da) Uli Da is the one that stands out, which makes me suspect a non-human race. So why do I think that Uli Da is Sho Del? Well, first off, the name has a space in the middle, just like the name of the Sho Del themselves. And secondly, we know a dragon, and his name is Frost, which doesn't seem to fit with Uli Da, linguistic-wise. So my conclusion is that Uli Da has to be Sho Del. Apologizes if this has been discussed before.

I like it a lot, and as much as most people take Autonomy as a given, I hate the idea of the letter author as Bavadin. A collective mind is anything but autonomous. Add that to the expansionist viewpoint of the author(s) and their respect for Rayse (which is see no other way to interpret as respect for his ambition) and the tests for Hoid to prove himself... Ambition fits in my mind much better.

Okay, so here we have evidence that there was absolutely no altruistic motivation for the murder. He acted out of rage, and what thought he did have of it was of enjoyment. So it should be clear that Adolin should feel remorse for the act. If he doesn't feel remorse due to motivations he later ascribes to the act, he is engaging in revisionism of the act, self-delusion. Whatever justifications he later uses as justification are factually incorrect. His motivation was rage, and sadism (he enjoyed the suffering of Sadeas). Now, I am not saying here that he is a sadist as a pattern of behaviour, nor a walking talking ball of rage as a pattern of behaviour, but in that moment, he was. Regarding the authors intent for the character, I have to disagree with you. The author has been very clear that there should be consequences, including psychological ones for any killing. I would argue the self-deceit he is engaging in around the issue is a part of the scarring. He does have a good moral compass, which is why he is engaging in revisionism, because he doesn't want to face that what he did was completely and utterly immoral by the standards of his society and the standards of himself. Sadeas deserved to die, that isn't in doubt. It's how his death happened that is the issue. If Adolin had judged the circumstances using the later justifications prior to killing him, and regretted the necessity of it, that would be a completely different matter. Justice is dispassionate. Adolin never once tried to find a legal and moral way to have Sadeas account for his crimes.

Like Elephant said, I think it's just the whole concept of Moelach and his powers of foresight. I don't think the rattles are damaging in the physical sense, but I think the rattles heard are ultimately chosen by Odium or one of his generals. Which means the rattles are an attempt to either a.) Manipulate various events and people or b.) Just to cause plain ole chaos as people try to decipher the meaning behind the rattles. At the least it's a distraction, at the worst Odium is manipulating events to fit his agenda.

When you accidentally spell protein like protien. When you think you hear someone say that their teacher keeps pairing them up with thaylens. When you spend all of your free time pondering the mysteries of the Cosmere. When your teacher askes you to write about if you could be friends with anyone, who would it be, and you write a giant paragraph about how Kaladin would be the coolest friend ever. When Christmas is a time to get people to buy books for you.

In my opinion killing baby Hitler wouldn't have changed much, there just would have been another figure to fill the role. Attributing all evil to him is a convenient oversimplification of a complex issue, but I go too much off topic, so I'll stop here. I don't see Gavinor fitting the role as nobody thought it would be great if he died. I think we haven't seen this yet, but if we have - my spheres would go to Jasnah deciding against killing Renarin. He sees the future, which is universally considered of the enemy and is bonded to a corrupt spren. This suggestion doesn't take the said death rattle literally, but they are metaphorical anyway.

SETTING: The glass wall backed Council chamber in Urithiru, Dalinar, with the sleeves of his Kholin blue military shirt rolled up is pacing with a lavis polyp sticking jauntily out of his mouth, while Navani, sitting in a rocking chair, is working on a fabrial in her lap. The assembled heads of state of Roshar are looking to Dalinar as he begins to explain all about.... SONG: Urithiru (Sung to the Tune of Oklahoma, from the musical Oklahoma): We couldn't pick a better place to wage these fights! It ain't too easy to use an Oathgate I've been livin' here with my Radiant Knights, Soon we'll be fightin' the shard of Hate The Shard of hate That don't sound great Gonna grow some lavis, tallew and chicken parts, Pasture for the great shells So we can harvest gem hearts Flowers on the prarie where the wind spren zoom Plen'y o' air and plen'y o' room Plen'y o room to swing your shard Plen'y o heart cuz we try real hard Urithiru where the storms come sweeping down the plain Where the lavis wheat could sure smell sweet If we could find that sibling to train Urithiru ev'ry night my gem heart and I Sit alone for reals and watch sky eels Making lazy circles in the sky. We know we'll defend the land And the tower we belong to is grand And when we say Kalak! A-YIP-I-O-EE-AY We're only sayin' "You're doin' fine Urithiru, Urithiru U R"

He might have had the right to the salute when he was a loyal member of Bridge Four and living the ideals it represents, but I think he gave up that right when he nearly killed his commanding officer / close friend to get revenge. Kaladin would have died from that shardplate-fueled punch to the gut had Syl not returned in that moment. Regardless of what Moash thinks of Elhokar, is it worth killing a close friend to get to him? How is that any better than what Elhokar did? In my opinion, betraying a friend who has saved your life is unforgivable. I have a feeling Moash would have tried to kill Kaladin in Kholinar if he had gotten in the way, and would have justified it by saying that Kaladin was defending a murderer. Also, I think the big difference between Moash and Kaladin is that Kaladin takes responsibility for everything and Moash takes responsibility for nothing. Kaladin is self-sacrificing, Moash is self-centered. Kaladin tries to empathize with others, Moash feels like a victim with the world out to get him. No matter what similar life experiences they have had, these differences is so large that they are nearly opposite characters. They've both had bad chull happen, but one has taken responsibility and become a Knight Radiant while the other has blamed everyone else for his problems and is therefore ripe for Odium-picking. I expect an epic showdown between them in the next couple books, and cannot wait to see it. Despite my HUGE dislike of Moash's actions, I love reading him as a villainous character.

Szeth not taking responsibility for his actions? I don't think I can really agree with that. This is a guy who absolutely despises himself for what he has done. Yes, he justified it because he had no choice, and that's wrong, but he fully admits that what he was doing was wrong. Eventually though he does admit that the oathstone was just a stupid rock. Moash however fully believes himself to be in the right. Also, when Szeth is finding that he is truly enjoying himself during the Skybreaker test, he immediately comes down on himself, not believing that he deserves to enjoy anything. So I would say that Szeth at least takes personal responsibility for the things he does. That is why his book is probably the one that I am more interested for than any of the others that are coming up. Moash is a great character, but that doesn't mean that he can't be hated. You can hate a great villain. Can't agree that he is a great man though. Just because he tried to protect those Singers doesn't make him a great man. Not with the things he does afterwards. Also, let's not forget that one of Odium's things is taking away people's pain and taking away their responsibility for the things that they have done. That's how he gets you.

I have loved reading this thread - its been really great to see everyone's perspectives and I want to thank everyone here for maiking it such an interesting read. For the record, I can see why each person has their opinion and I think there is good evidence for each interpretation - it comes down to personal feelings. So even if my comments contradict anyone here, it is more about my own attitudes than specific evidence. This is amazing. I both agree and disagree with you! So you are completely right that each of Szeth, Dalinar and Taravangian are worse in their respective problems (responsibility/killer/traitor) but where Moash is more than just a normal man is that he is all of these. He isn't as deeply in each problem as the others, but he has his fingers in many pies. That, in my mind, makes him more compelling as a character and also likely more attractive to Odium - because Rayse will have multiple ways in to gain a foothold. I hate Moash. But I hate him because he is compelling. I can't hate Odium (yet) because he isn't enough of a person to me - Moash betrays Kal and that makes me very anti him. But I can't wait to read more of his arc. I don't care whether he is redeemed or not, as long as he remains interesting! I am definitely on the side of thinking Kaladin and Moash are similar in many ways. I'll just point out my reasons: Moash resists Kaladins ladership at the beginning. Kaladin resists leadership from others as well (he puts himself outside the chain of command with Dalinar -and even then he is often autonomous) They are both natural fighters (ok so is Skar, but Moash is mentioned very frequently as having been extraordinary in his speed of skill acquisition - as was Kaladin) They both want(ed) vengeance against a lighteyes of rank "Moash" is an ancient name from the Singers. Kaladin means "born into eternity" (i guess - "kalad" = eternal) so even their names invoke age - and we find out their meanings in the same book They are both socially miles from where they started (both become light-eyed). Both feel separated from ordinary people (Moash by being with the Fused, Kal by being a Radiant) Both take up leadership roles with the same group of Singers. They miss each other. We see Kaladin refuse to talk about Moash leaving and worrying about it internally, and we see Moash think of Kal a great deal) On top of that there are some interesting mirror moments. Kaladin recovers Jezrien's blade, Moash kills Jezrien Kaladin doesn't kill Amaram (despite his hatred), Moash kills Elhokar (because of his hatred) Kaladin is paralysed by seeing his men on both sides fight at the palace. Moash acts to kill Elhokar despite having loved ones on both sides Kaladin doesn't kill Moash when Moash/Graves try to assassinate Elhokar in WoR - this allows Moash to later kill Elhokar but he doesn't attack Kaladin - he salutes him. Kaladin voluntarily gave up his shards (in tWoK) and gained his own blade (Syl). Moash lost his shards but got his own blade (?Odiumblade?) My personal take is that Kaladin and Moash are very similar and their different arcs occur as a result of only tiny differences between them. Kind of like a tiny miscalculation in direction can change your end destination dramatically if you travel far enough. To me, Moash and Kaladin would have been the same had Moash been able to set aside his hatred of Elhokar, the way Kaladin set aside his desire for revenge on order to swear his 3rd Ideal. I think Moash regrets his decision and he cannot figure out how to go back and fix the mess he's in. So he just keeps digging - hoping to get himself out of the hole he has made, but instead just keeps getting deeper. As he gets deeper, he tries harder and harder to justify his actions and this is where his problem with Odium will lie - he may end up going down the Amaram route as a result. To be clear, I don't think he regrets killing Elhokar or the assassination attempt, but he regrets attacking Kaladin and he doesn't understand why Kaladin changed his mind and he regrets not being able to understand why. Because Moash doesn't see where he went wrong he doesn;t (yet) understand why he and Kal are on opposing sides. I am not sure if he'll ever figure it out. If he does it will likely be part of a redemption arc. So my personal take is that Moash's salute is more akin to the salute between Eshonai and Dalinar (i think? the one in tWoK iirc) where they are definitely opponents but can still have respect. I think Moash still respects Kaladin and this was a form of that. I think he wishes they weren't on opposing sides and knows Kaladin well enough to know that Kal would only have changed his mind if there were good reasons (from Kal's perspective). So it isn't an F U so much as acknowledgement of their similarities and (former) bond. I think it is possible that Moash will learn to hate Kaladin because he doesn't understand the change of heart in WoR and that will make him dangerous going forward.

Hahahaha, that's the whole point. His POV in all of WoT was a gigantic time sink. H e w a s s u p p o s e d t o s l o w t h i n g s down, My god, by end of Knife of dreams I wanted to destroy all Locksmith puzzles just on the principle of the thing. I don't know if you ever listened to the WoT audiobooks, but Michael Kramer's Perrin is seriously 1/4 speed. Rand chapters fast, Mat chapters—even faster, Perrin Chapters—time to go make some popcorn. He's d u l l and anticlimatic. Lan is a lot like Dalinar, only less talkative. Both of them are amazing characters, Dalinar is on of my SLA favorites and Lan is one of my WoT favorites, they seem to be bound together by an overarching sense of duty. They are capable, responsible men, who happen to be able to break the puny insignificant world that they live in two (without much effort, which is pretty awesome really)

And again, we have you misrepresenting what I said by applying it plural to a pattern of behaviour instead of the singular instance of behaviour that was described. I have clarified this on multiple occasions, and yet every time I open one of your comments in this thread you are doing it again. I don't know what else you have experienced here, but I can assure you, I never held any malice against you for your arguments. We can't have a discussion if everyone agrees on everything. I do take issue with you repeatedly misrepresenting what I said though - that's dishonest.

Here's another one for your humble enjoyment. Szeth's New Knife (Sung to the tune of Mack the Knife from The Three Penny Opera) Oh the Sword has an aluminum sheath, dear Just to keep it, from leakin' Night That's a bald shin Szeth Son-Naturo, Yeah its you know, the Assassin in White. When the sword fights without his sheath, dear Midnight billows start to spread, lots of Stormlight needs shin Szeth, dear So he doesn't wind up dead In the Purelake, some poor crim'nal Lies in the water losing life Szeth the detective talks to sword Nimi "Why did that Reshi have a knife?" In a prison stinking awfully, Only one guard is found dead "Shouldn't you be Destroyin' Evil?" His sword Nimi, says in his head. Then shin Szeth finds the beefy Noble, who's been skimmin' off the cash. And then Nightblood destroys that evil, Did our Shin do something Rash? Here come Listeners, and Ner-agoul, that's Yelignar, and Odium Oh the chances look mighty slim, dear Glad sword Nimi's back in town

I took the salute as an intentional F U on Moash's part. I don't believe he meant it as a sign of respect. There was a scene in part two, Chapter 54, where Moash met with Leshwi and she asked what angers him. Here is the quote: I think this scene is a turning point where Moash officially chooses to side with the Singers/Fused and turn away from Bridge Four/Kaladin. He doesn't think "Elhokar is a murderer." He thinks thinks "Kaladin had been protecting a murderer." I think he used this a way to justify abandoning any loyalty that might still remain to Kaladin, and choosing vengeance instead. I also don't think Kaladin and Moash are similar people. They may have had similar backgrounds, but they respond and react to situations in completely different ways. Two people can be brought up in the exact same environment, and one can treat others with respect and compassion, while the other is self-centered and harmful. It is who they are are as a person, not their experiences, that connect them. Even though Kaladin has been hurt by ligheyes and hated them for it, he never tried to kill them for vengeance. I would say Rock, Sigzil, Rlain, Drehy, and the rest of Bridge Four are much more like Kaladin than Moash, even though their backgrounds and experiences are widely different. That's why they are his squires and Moash is not.

So at the risk of getting an avalanche of hate...(glances gratefully at the now gone downvote button) I loved the salute. I've posted in a number of places that this whole scene was my favorite part of the book. I loved Moash's storyline and I'm very excited for his future. Now don't get me wrong, I totally understand the anger, I get where it's coming from, and absolutely agree that it's justified, I just feel like I understand Moash. (Not condone, but understand. I also respect him after what he did for the singers Kaladin abandoned to be abused for harboring his spying.) So I don't see Moash as giving the salute as malicious, a sign of respect, or anything like that. I think that Moash was trying to repay Kaladin in what small way he could by teaching Kaladin how other take care of himself by getting revenge. (Please note, I am not agreeing with that lesson or saying it's a good one, but just that I think that's what Moash was doing.) Moash knows about Amaram, and is the only one who understands that piece of Kaladin. He's the only one who's truly related to Kaladin on a personal level instead of revering him as their Radiant captain. When Moash notices that Kaladin has witnessed his revenge, he makes the salute as a reminder of 'I got my revenge because of you and Bridge Four, thank you. Don't forget to do the same for you, you deserve that peace, for your men." (Again, this is a twisted lesson, but it's what makes the most sense to me for where I've seen Moash in the series. I do not agree with the philosophy on a personal level, but it appeals to me on a narrative and aesthetic level.)

There was no respect in that gesture. He might as well have spit in Kal's face when he did that. You have to remember that Kaladin prevented Moash from getting the revenge he wanted in WoR. This was Moash's payback, not only to Elhokar, but to Kaladin.

Yea, I wasn't clear. I think Moash GAVE it as his way of showing Kal respect, but in Kal's shoes I would take it as a big F U. As in "you dirty snake, how dare you poison our salute with your misdeeds, not matter how justified you feel?" Bridge Four was forged in part by Kal rejecting all the feelings which led Moash to that moment. I think he would just see it as the one last heartbreaking nail he had to put in Moash's redemption coffin. One last enforcement that Moash wasn't Bridge Four and wasn't Kal's friend.