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  1. 145 points
    We have some exciting news to announce today. So far in order to obtain some unpublished works of Brandon's, you'd have to email him through his sites, and his assistants would distribute them. Well now you won't need to wait for that, because now we will be in charge of distributing out Aether of Night! All you have to do is post in this topic (you'll need a 17S account, but that's it), and our staff will PM you the document. Once we do this, we'll remove your post here. We'll be using this topic as a to-do list for requests. Ideally since we have lots of staff members, we will get this out to you soon, within a week or two. With this change we are unpasswording the Aether of Night board, as now all of you will have access to it if you want it. You may discuss Aether of Night in the Cosmere Theories board, but tag your topic title with [Aether]. We hope you're excited about this, so many of you will be able to get this text in a much more obvious way now! You will receive a .docx file, and if you need to convert it into a .pdf or .epub, there are many converters to do that for you. (We are not distributing the prose version of White Sand, as that will continue to be distributed in Brandon's newsletters.) Thank you Team Sanderson for letting 17S do this!
  2. 141 points
    I totally saw Brandon the other day, and he was getting drunk on stormlight. He was so drunk that when I offered to help him carry the giant vats of concrete he was lugging around (don't ask), he just handed me some notes on his plans for Stones Unhallowed and walked away. Being a loyal fan of Brandonalsium, I decided to do the only logical thing and post what will happen in the next book for all to see. I hope you enjoy having Stormlight Archive #3 ruined for you! - The prologue is Elhokar at the party where Gavilar died. He notices Dalinar following the codes as Gavilar said. Then, the two mysterious men convince him to trick Dalinar into getting completely wasted. He gets Dalinar drunk, then gives Szeth directions to Gavilar's room, gives Sadeas the handbook on how to stop the Desolations (it was the only one of its kind, and Sadeas destroys it), gives Venli the tip that she needs to unlock Stormform, and gives Darkness a list of crimes committed by all Surgebinders so that he can kill them. Adolin is also revealed to have dated Shallash. - In present day, the Ghostbloods say that Shallan must find true love if she wants to join them. She angsts over whether she loves Kaladin or Adolin. - Kaladin flies in to Hearthstone in the middle of Roshone's marriage to Laral (it was a really long engagement). Roshone has now grown an evil goatee and intends to push his new button that gives supreme power to Odium once he gets married. Kaladin bursts in and gives his objection right before the vows. Everyone cheers that Kaladin saved the day, only for a brick to knock him out. - Jasnah has to babysit Baby Odium, the suckling child from WoK Chapter 57's Death Rattle. - Szeth decides to chase his dream and become a rockstar. It is revealed in his flashbacks that everyone in Shinovar discouraged this dream because stone was sacred. Szeth was sad, but then he saw someone Soulcasting some grass into a guitar. Using the guitar, he rocked out, singing that the end was coming. He was made Truthless because his music was too loud. - It's revealed that Lirin has turned evil and crowned himself Emperor of Hearthstone. Kaladin, Roshone, Laral, Jost's Dad, and Hesina team up to stop Lirin from upgrading the Voidbringers into the Super Voidbringers. However, when Kaladin tries to fight him, Lirin goes Super Saiyan and defeats Kaladin, telling him that he has to unlock more true potential. - Dalinar confesses that he doesn't remember his wife, only to find out that her name actually is "Shshshshshshsh". - Jasnah runs into a hat-obsessed man who likes drinking metal, claims that two and two equals pickle, can regenerate and slow time, is a master of disguise, and hates guns. Brandon's notes indicate that he is indeed a worldhopper: Hrathen. - The Highspren cause Highstorms, but they've grown tired of it so they give Adolin the power to make Highstorms. - Shallan actually does draw herself as a bridgeman, causing her to realize that she loves Kaladin. - Kaladin decides to say the Fourth Oath to get enough power to defeat Emperor Lirin. However, when he learns that it's, "I will not go after my friend's girl", he refuses to say it. - Dalinar walks up to Shallan and says, "Kaladin killed Helaran" with no context, then walks away. - Nalan is also in possession of a giant block of ice in which Spook has cryogenically frozen himself. - The recurring Interlude character (like Szeth in WoK and Eshonai in WoR) is Mazrim Taim. - Ghost Sadeas appears and swears the Oath, "The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended", causing him to transform into Sataneas. - Kaladin tries to flee Hearthstone, but ends up tripping over and unplugging a power cord. This gets rid of Emperor Lirin's power, and Kaladin easily defeats him. As thanks for stopping Lirin, Laral gives Kaladin a big smooch. However, as she does, Shallan walks in, gasps, and runs away. Kaladin chases after her saying that he can explain and we see no more of them in this book. - To raise money for the new Radiants, Dalinar and Renarin start a car wash. However, Amaram's 1974 Parsher truck turns out to be a Carform Parshendi, which turns into the legendary Voidmobile when Adolin hits it with a Highstorm. - Lopen is part of the 11th Radiant Order, the Ganchos. - Szeth and Darkness can't get into Shinovar because there's a ten dollar admission fee. Spook defrosts and the trio go on an epic quest to find ten dollars. - Derethil is still alive and the Aesudan subplot is resolved when Wandersail falls from the sky and crushes her. - Nan Balat reveals that Shallan's mom's name was 'Restares Davar'. - Szeth, Spook, and Darkness run into Jasnah, owner of Roshar's last ten dollars. Szeth and Jasnah bond over their mutual fakeout deaths. - Navani falls into a parallel dimension where Steelheart, The Rithmatist, and Alcatraz are part of the Cosmere. - Lift eats Sadeas's body, causing Sataneas to get mad. - Szeth finally gets back to Shinovar with the ten dollar admission fee, only to find out that they're closed for the summer. - Taravangian finds love. - Adolin gets a puppy and names it Sureblood Jr. However, his puppy gets eaten by TenSoon. - It's revealed that Odium wants to destroy the Cosmere because he got friendzoned by Cultivation. - The Nightwatcher is revealed to actually be the Nightwasher, and only gives you a boon and a curse if you wash your dishes. - Eshonai wakes up and finds that she has been rebuilt into a cyborg. - It's revealed that the Ten Fools founded a group called the Knights Radian. It takes two orders to form a Knights Diameter. - The big twists of the book are: 1. The Recreance happened becuase the Knights Radiant were no longer given a discount on fast food. 2. Elhokar has already been assassinated and Danlan has tricked everyone into thinking that she is Elhokar. 3. The masked Ghostblood is Stella, daughter of Dalinar and Vin, master of all Radiant powers, only one who can stop Odium, and love interest of Hoid. (Totally not a Mary Sue.) 4. Nohadon plaigirized The Way of Kings, stealing it in its entirety from How to be Evil by Dilaf. 5. Lift gets a Shardfork. 6. Ronald McDonald is coming to Roshar. I hope you are all happy to have the book utterly spoiled! Sorry Brandon, but I had to share this new info.
  3. 44 points
    A bit of background for those who have remained blissfully unaware of this meme (such as @Kurkistan, apparently). Early in 2015, after Brandon's Firefight tour, he came to Chicago and did an impromptu signing where I asked him about Renarin and his Words of Radiance visions, mostly because they didn't feel explainable with either one of the Truthwatcher Surges. The exchange in question (behind a spoiler tag, for brevity): https://wob.coppermind.net/events/3-firefight-chicago-signing/#e64 What you don't see in this exchange is my commentary where I explain that I can share as much as another eventgoer would've been able to glimpse - that Brandon asked me for my copy of The Way of Kings, the US hardcover, and pointed me to a specific page in it. A page that supposedly explained the visions. And a page that would come up in both public discourse and private messages every few weeks to few months. Well, Oathbringer is out, I've gotten a chance to check in with Brandon and make sure it's okay to do a reveal, and he said that it was. So, since I am running out of ways to tease - or troll - you all, I'll just drop it here, without my 2 years worth of speculations, and see what you do with it. A wiser man might've prepared a proper theory to go with this, to catch you up on my thoughts, but I am honestly too tired (and, to be honest, busy) to this right now. So. The Page
  4. 44 points
    EDIT: A summary of this thread in a Google doc can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit I was extremely disappointed. Not because of the result (well, the reasoning is iffy, but more to that later), but because the Kaladin/Shallan angle isn't even remotely explored. All this teasing - for nothing. And that continues right through Oathbringer... Kaladin has his thoughts, Shallan has her thoughts, Adolin has his thoughts. Nobody talks. I think, that it could just have been left out to be honest... nothing would have changed. There was 1 (one) meaningful conversation between Shallan and Kaladin, which then was misinterpreted by Shallan as Kaladin actually encouraging her to use Veil and Radiant, while he was actually referring to her ability to just "push" stuff away into her mind. And he didn't even encourage her, but rather him just saying, that he would like to be able to do that. And that was it. Great. The reasoning: Adolin knows her? Christ, he maybe recognizes her, but doesn't really know her. Ironically, he actually encourages her usage of Veil by being the accepting fiancee, now husband. Something that Shallan seemingly criticized about Kaladin... I think, Shallan just took the easy way out. Like always. Pushing her attraction to Kaladin on Veil was the icing on the cake. Basically another big fat lie. And don't tell me, that Adolin recognizing her was the catalyst that helped her with her problem. No, that was Hoid. Personal matter/opinion: Shadolin is cheesy, boring and bland. I really hope Book Four adds some spice into that. You know, something interesting? That one conversation on the boat between Kaladin and Shallan had more meaning and chemistry than every single interaction between Adolin and Shallan in Oathbringer. Not to talk about Adolin's observations about Shallan watching Kaladin and her own subconscious actions (drawing etc.) In my eyes, Kaladin is able to connect with Shallan on a level, that Adolin will never be able to achieve. Because he isn't even interested in it. Not unless something happens to Adolin... And I think that is something we all don't want. Maybe something through Veil... I don't know.
  5. 42 points
    Obviously, boots are well suited for running jokes.
  6. 40 points
    You guys can upvote me for that here, if you want. You know, or not.
  7. 39 points
    The Spiritual Realm is probably the least understood piece of Realmatics within the Cosmere. As such, much of this is speculation upon how the Spirit works. However, I am pretty sure that I am at least onto something with this. To understand the Spiritual Realm, you first must understand Investiture. It is a third state of “Stuff”, like Matter or Energy. But Investiture is first and foremost the “stuff” that constructs the Soul of all things. As such, all things have an aspect in the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual realms. All things have a Soul, which is usually called sDNA, or a Spirit-Web. These terms are what define most of this speculation upon the Spiritual Realm. The Spirit Web may be defined as a web that is you, composed of structures that represent yourself, or it may be also explained as threads connecting various Spiritual Ideals, which are also represented in the Spiritual Realm, which come together to form the web that is you. In this, I will attempt to explain multiple functions of the Spirit, some mundane, others magical. This will help to outline how the Spirit actually is affected by daily life, rather than just the dramatic magical events that happen occasionally with our main characters. The Spiritual Realm itself is not a place, like the Cognitive Realm could be defined as being. One can visit the Cognitive Realm, but to our knowledge, the Spiritual Realm has no Where, and therefore you cannot truly be There. It is an infinite and yet an infinitesimal realm. Where and When have no real meaning there, besides some things that I will go into later. I will also go into basically every Cosmere novel to some degree, to address various things there. So, spoilers. Furthermore, this obviously is mainly speculation, even if it is (in my own mind) very educated speculation. If Brandon comes along and says I’m all wrong, then obviously I am wrong. But I don’t think I’m completely off my rocker, so bear with me. First, addressing normal functions of the Spirit Web. As stated before, investiture is the stuff that makes up a soul, and therefore the Spirit Web is made of investiture. The Spirit Web is our perfect ideal. This is reflected in the Light Filter Realmatics model, where the Spiritual Realm is the Light, and the Cognitive Realm filters our perception of the perfect ideal, and the Physical Realm is how that manifests. However, clearly things change. As I addressed in the Spiritual Digestion topic, even in eating things we are changing things. Furthermore, over time our ideals can change, not counting that where do these spiritual ideals even come from in the first place? Clearly, the Spiritual Realm does change, and therefore it is subject to Time. HOWEVER, it is NOT subject to time in the same way the Physical Realm is, or the Cognitive Realm. Instead of it being a 4th dimensional construct like in our own universe, it is more of a 3-dimensional object in the spiritual realm, as much as the Spiritual Realm can even be defined as “3 dimensional.” This is evident in the Spiritual aspect of Fortune, the ability to see the “webs” of the future. This is what Elend sees at the end of HoA, what Kelsier sees in SH, and what Renarin sees in OB. The Spiritual Realm is reminiscent of the “Flame on a String” model, where Time is the string and the present is the flame. The past is set in stone, but there is a myriad of possibilities in the future. Preservation comments on how hard it is to make sense of these futures in SH. Clearly, in this sense, time is represented in the Spiritual Realm, even if the Spiritual Realm itself does not experience Time. This is similar to how Location is represented in the Spiritual Realm, although Location is a bit easier to explain. Location is mainly explained by the Spiritual aspect of Connection. When one is in a location, you become Connected to it. When you are born and from a location, you become more heavily connected to it than if you merely visited a location. This Connection is expressed in the Spirit Web, so if you identify as a Scadrian because you were born on Scadrial, that would make itself manifest in your sDNA. This is particularly important for Sel, where magic systems are entirely dependent on where you are from. It is also how Worldhoppers can use native languages without having to learn each one. They do so by tapping into connection, although exactly how is not entirely clear. We do have a clear example of Connection in BoM, where the medallions of the Southerners allow Wax and Co to speak with Allik. So, while there are no actual locations in the Spiritual Realm, location is still represented. Clearly, all things, and all parts of an individual, are somehow represented in the Spiritual Realm. This entire shape, the key thing of it being a particular person is the Spiritual aspect of Identity. Your Identity means that it is you. No matter how much you change as a person, your core Identity does not change, as evidenced by the fact that Feruchemists are still able to use metalminds they filled a long time ago. A few things about general Spirit Web function before I move on to discussing how the various Magics utilize the Spirit. First, digestion and destruction. By eating things, you are destroying them and turning them into yourself. As such, the Web of the items you eat are changing. They are no longer meat or an apple, they have now partially integrated into your own Web, adding to your strength and general livelihood. This also gets into the key idea of a Spirit Web acting somewhat like an Enzyme, which I will address more later. Second, heritage. As per WoB and common sense, heritage is reflected in the Spirit Web. After all, who your parents are is part of who you are, and therefore part of your Identity. Also, Allomancy and Feruchemy are both inherited, which means parts of the Spirit Web are passed on. This is probably not a cut and paste method of inheritance, but more an adaptation of the Child’s Spirit Web to start forming an Identity. It seems reasonable to assume that at birth, one has very little Identity. But, one of the first things that truly Identifies you is your parents. At that age, there is not much more that really makes you you. As such, the Spirit would Connect to the parental Spirit, and as such take on some of its attributes. This would include genetics, looks, philosophies, and magical abilities, although clearly it is not a perfect copy. This is also not a perfect model of how the Spirit would develop from birth, because clearly orphans don’t develop ideas similar to the parents if they were never raised by them. However, certain Connections to things around them should explain how a child develops the way they do. Finally, beginning to move into the more magical side of things, there is Snapping. This is a matter of some debate on how it works. Clearly, trauma of some kind causes snapping. Harmony also made snapping easier in Era 2, which shows that it can be affected by a Shard. I will attempt to explain my own hypothesis on how snapping actually works. I believe it is simply a change in who you are. As mentioned before, your core identity never changes. You are always who you are. Bu who you identify as does change, and this should reflect in the Spiritual Realm. The thing about trauma is that it changes you. You are not the same before and after being beaten bloody. You are not the same after killing your mother. But you can change in smaller ways too. This change in who you are would “Snap” your spirit web. Perhaps the first time you see poverty. Or the first time you lose someone. Perhaps just breaking an arm, or getting a nasty illness. You don’t have to commit murder just to become Radiant. It is probable that virtually every individual in the Cosmere is Snapped, to some degree or another. And once a crack in your Spirit Web forms, it is possible for more Investiture to enter in. What kind depends on where and who you are, and it is not entirely evident how each of these magical systems work. But, I will do the best to explain how what we have seen might be reflective of the Spirit Web. I will start off with Allomancy. As we all well know, a typical allomancer ingests the metal they are able to utilize, and then “burns” it to gain access to the power associated with that particular metal. I will address two important Spiritual ideas in Allomancy. First, the idea of something being a “part of you.” From many WoB’s asking whether various metal things within the body would be burnable, it is evident that in order to burn a metal, you must consider it to be “inside” of you. As soon as this is the case, the Spirit Web of the metal is now part of your Spirit Web, although still as a metal. Here’s where the other idea enters in: the ability of a Spirit Web to interact with other webs in a particular web. This is why I explain it as being like an Enzyme. The Spirit Web (according to my speculation) has a particular part that is the “active site,” which has a particular shape to fit exactly to a particular metal. The metal has to be the correct alloy because it needs to have the exact spiritual shape to fit into the “active site”. Once this takes place, an allomancer can then burn the metal. At this point, the “active site” consumes the metal’s spirit web, also consuming the metal itself, which then takes power from Preservation to power the particular ability the metal provides. It is likely that this active site has some sort of connection to Preservation which allows this connect to take place. The reason there are no 2 metal Mistings is that a Mistborn, instead of having 16 separate “active sites,” has one active site that handles any allomantic metal. A Lerasium Alloy could be imagined as creating the active site for that specific metal, while straight Lerasium would create the complete active site. How aluminum fits into this is not entirely clear, although I suspect that when one burns Aluminum, it all goes away because it’s the power of Preservation destroying the metallic spirit web, turning it into (useless) investiture. Also, Allomancy’s abilities could be imagined as Connecting to a particular idea or object, and then pulling or pushing on that connection. This gives further evidence to the Time being a Spiritual Object idea, as this would suggest that Bendalloy and Cadmium connect, and the push or pull on Time. Next, Feruchemy. Again, the active site thing works the same, except this time you are putting investiture from your own spirit web into the metal you can store into. Yes, into the Spirit Web of the metal. So, you store part of your ideal Health, or Strength, leaving that part of the spirit web that identifies your Strength or Health weaker. Of particular interest is the Spiritual quadrant of Feruchemy. Unlike Allomancy, the abilities of Feruchemy are all ones you have naturally, just used at a different rate than one normally would. Investiture is particularly interesting, as it means you store the stuff that makes up your spirit web- therefore weakening it- to tap it and make it stronger at a later date. How this is useful is not quite clear, unless you have another ability to pair it with. Storing Identity is also interesting, as you can become more of a blank slate. This also has some regard to metalminds, although exactly how Unsealed metalminds, like the Medallions, work yet is not entirely clear. Connection stores your ability to make connections, which might have some very interesting implications on a developing child. But of most interest of me today is Fortune, or the ability to see the future. Atium worked with Fortune on a very small scale, allowing one to see slightly into the future. Only slightly, because when you look only slightly into the future, usually there are not a lot of branches. However, as Vin so dramatically illustrated, sometimes one can force branches of change. Fortune probably just is the ability to choose which path they want to take, at the cost of having no foresight whatsoever when storing. Fortune on a grander scale is something that needs to be addressed, as a complete topic. Fortune is an ability demonstrated by Shards and those who see significantly into the Spiritual Realm. The branching of possible futures is clearly quite frustrating, and not always easy to interpret. Hoid does have a way of manipulating fortune, but it is NOT through Feruchemy. He does not store and then tap fortune, he has another way of manipulating it. It allows him to know where to go where he is needed. Source The Spiritual Realm manifests all possible futures, with some being more likely than others. However, it only takes one path in the end. Shards who’s intents are better aligned with foresight are better at seeing into the future. The ability to see possible pasts is also there, as shown by Malatium. However, this ability is clearly less useful than being able to see possible futures. While on the topic of Shards, I might as well get in a little speculation before I move on to addressing the Surges and the other smaller magic systems. What we call a Shard’s intent, is more than just an arbitrary name, despite what Odium says to the contrary in OB. It is, to some degree or another, a Spiritual Ideal. A Shard is a massive soul, given that it has an immense amount of investiture composing it. It is no wonder that a Vessel’s identity would be warped by so much Investiture that composed an ideal of Ruin, or Honor. I have speculated before that what we call “Intents” are pieces of Adonalsium’s original identity. However, after some more thought, I think it is also possible that Adonalsium came about as a natural creation of the untapped Spiritual Realm that was birthed at the beginning of whatever universe the Cosmere takes place in. Without life, the Spiritual Realm would not be used much, because it is living things that have large amounts of investiture in their soul, compared to the soul of a potato or a table. This may have led to friction between the realms, where the untapped Investiture of the Spiritual Realm became a single entity. No, according to this theory, Adonalsium wasn’t ever a human. But it was a mind. A living being, with more soul energy than anything else will ever have. As such, it’s Spirit would be the perfect ideal Spirit- A God. As for why relative Infinity would shatter into 16, or why anyone would want to Shatter Adonalsium, it is not entirely clear, besides a WoB or two. Source However, it does seem clear that what we call the Intent is more or less how the Vessel interprets the Spiritual Ideal the Shard represents. Furthermore, I speculate that it is due to these ideals that make Shards subject to certain laws- they cannot easily violate ideals they represent. Moving back to magic systems, we address Surgebinding. Surgebinding, in Spiritual terms, seems to be harnessing what are considered to be the 10 elemental forces on Roshar, according to the part of real interest- Spren bonds. A Knight swears Ideals or Truths- things that bring them closer to a Spiritual ideal of the Honor that their Order represents. Furthermore, the Spren integrates itself into the person’s Spiritual cracks. As such, the spren become more human, and the human becomes more sprenlike. This symbiotic relationship takes place all over Roshar, with a myriad of species. Of spiritual interest, the most important surge would probably be Transformation, which uses Stormlight to change an object into another type of thing, which means it is changing the Spirit Web of an object into a different shape. Most dramatically, Jasnah is even able to do this to people, changing them from human into a person shaped crystal statue. Of other significant note are the Singers, who are able to bond with spren to alter their bodies- and therefore their Spirit Web- into different shapes and purposes. This probably also has something to do with Active Sites being able to take in a spren. The Rhythms are likely Spiritual pulses, ideals of particular emotions. This probably comes from making small emotional connections to these Ideals, which then have this “rhythm” of investiture flow. How this works is not entirely clear. Also of some Spiritual importance is the fact that Highstorms constantly drag a perpendicularity across Roshar, which I theorize to be why spren are able to appear, because that much being driven together would likely leave the realms closer than if a perpendicularity never moved over Roshar. In fact, I think it has something to do with the entire ecology of Roshar, although how Shinovar fits in is not clear, due to a recent non-answer from Brandon on the question. Also of some interest is that fabrials have no identity, so they can be used by anyone. This contrasts greatly with your standard metalmind, which requires all sorts of extra steps we don’t understand in order to be used by anyone. Of some importance to address at this point are resonances. While I have been describing them as webs, they still are not technically a web. The Spiritual Realm is still a non-dimensional thing. Therefore, one’s spirit is both a web and a point. And in a point, all parts of it are on top of each other. Therefore, different magical abilities interact with one another, in ways that have not been fully explained yet. However, I am pretty sure that resonances are a direct result of the Ideals that different Orders identify with. How Twinborn resonances work, I have no idea. Until we get some actual examples, it is really hard to speculate on how the feruchemy and allomancy interact with one another. Moving on to less important magic systems, I will address the Selish magics as a whole. Basically, it appears that due to the Dor being in the cognitive realm, that practicioners of them forge a connection (haha accidental pun) by creating the shapes of the land they are from, whether through Aons, in your Dakhor bones, a weird sword kata, or in a Soulstamp. The Soulstamp is probably the most interesting spiritually, as it basically uses investiture to rewrite a spirit web. The closer the stamp is to the ideal, the better the stamp works. Sand Mastery is odd. How it works spiritually is not entirely clear, but also doesn’t matter to me too much, because as Khriss says, it is a low investiture system. Threnody is mainly weird because everybody has been invested to the point that they can turn into shades if they die in the right way, but no actual magic is taking place, so I’ll leave it at it being interesting that the Investiture has the ability to completely corrupt the identity of a person into whatever a Shade is. Awakening is not entirely interesting from a Spiritual standpoint, besides the dramatic exceptions of Divine Breaths and Nightblood. Nightblood is interesting because they made a super-invested death sword that is now alive. Divine breaths allow a person to come back from the dead, highly invested, at the cost of consuming some investiture each week or so. Creating sentient entities from investiture is definitely the more unique ability of this world, although I would recommend not trying that at home. I’m going to be honest and say that First of the Sun might be realmatically interesting, but at this point, I’m kind of done theorizing. It also appears to be a low investiture system, however. Why the worms only cause abilities in birds, well, probably some Spiritual shape stuff. Until we see more of that world it is hard to determine why particular species demonstrate particular abilities when the eat the worms. Also, it is notable that Sak uses some sort of form of Fortune when she shows Dusk possible places where he could die. Finally, I kind of forgot about one of the most important Spiritual magic systems: Hemalurgy. Hemalurgy is a leaky, low investiture system. But most importantly it is able to rip off pieces of a spirit web and attatch it onto another one. This is absolutely fascinating, as Khriss expresses in the Ars Arcanum. The uses for Hemalurgy seem to be mostly up to the imagination of the user, as long as one is ok with the grisly work of spiking people. A couple more spiritual things I should probably mention. A spiritual corpse lasts for a while, probably due to connections to living people. Aluminum’s total spiritual aspect seems to resist investiture, and has an aura that can be overwhelmed with enough investiture, even if the actual aluminum itself is not overwhelmable. However, its Spirit web can still be accessed, because Feruchemy and Allomancy still work with it, however useless destroying your own metals may be. This is why I think that Allomancy is indirectly working with the investiture and the aluminum, compared to directly targeting aluminum with a steelpush or a soulcasting, which just has no chance of working. Finally, I realized today that in the Cosmere, a Frankenstein’s monster is downright likely to appear at some point. Not a Frankenstein’s spren, like Nightblood, or like whatever Kelsier is now. I speak of creating an entirely new person, which is indicated to be possible from this WoB about creating a sentient space ship from hemalurgy. Mark my words. Mistborn Era 3, Hemalurgic Mistborn Cyborgs and Frankenstein’s monsters are coming. Edit #1. The Law of Investiture Saturation. Basically, a spirit web can only hold so much investiture, accounting for things like mistpoint, or a full metalmind. The amount it can hold is directly related to how complex the spirit web is. As a spirit web comes closer to saturation, it becomes harder exponentially to apply more investiture to the spirit web. The reason a shard works is because it adds to the web, not just inflating it. Savants happen when this state happens too often, leaving the "Strands" of the Spirit web perpetually "dialated", thus warping the spirit web. Edit #2. Eyes are weird in the Cosmere. Between eyes turning red due to shards hacking other magic systems, and the fact that your eyes burn out when you get stabbed by a shardblade, it's pretty evident something weird is going on. I propose that eyes are somewhat a reflection of the Spiritual Realm. Not a perfect one. But think about it. When you look out of your eyes, that's *you*. Its you behind those eyes, more so than being behind your fingers, or your ears. So it kind of makes sense that eyes could be "windows to the soul." Eye color change appears to occur when a sentient spirit web overlays your own. Namely, spren on Roshar. I'm pretty sure eyes change permanently once you reach the 5th oath, and Nale seems to reflect that, because even when he summons both Blades, Szeth never mentioned any eye color change. However, this needs to be confirmed by WoB. The 5th oath thing would explain why bonding a dead blade changes your eyes as long as you are bonded to it, rather than only when you summon it, like the Sylblade or the Honorblades. Furthermore, Lighteye Radiant not changing colors makes sense, because they are descended from radiants. Rather than needing a Spren, when they were born, their spirit web imitated their parents- with Radiant eyes. From that point on, it would be genetic/spiritually genetic. This does lend some credence to my theory on how children's spirit webs develop. It needing to be a sentient spirit web explains why your eyes should not change color when you get spiked, or get a divine breath, or get a forging. The red eye thing makes sense, as a shard hacking the magics system would reflect in the spirit web. Although, I do wonder why red. Why not purple? In world, why does the red occur? I don't have any good ideas for explaining that, so I'll leave that alone. Oh, and I just had the idea that perhaps Radiant eye color reflects the color of their spren, but I would have to double check that to see if I'm just making that up. It certainly would work for Kaladin though. Also, Preservation has weird eyes, but this makes sense given that he literally has a SHARD on top of his once human spirit web. If the eyes are the windows to the soul, the eyes would definitely show something like that. One problem with the whole sentient spirit web idea is the Singers, but I think because the Singer's spirit webs are specifically made to adapt to spren, that unless you have a hacking thing (like Voidspren) the color of eyes won't change. Although, I will be VERY interested to see what color Venli's eyes will turn. Ok, now I get to the weird one. Shades. I *think* that the splinter of Ambition that hit Threnody is somewhat sentient, but usually doesn't actively control the shades it has invested. But when somebody breaks the rules (which I still don't have an explanation for), then the splinter takes over, turning their eyes from green to red. Also, I think the big chunk of the Splinter is the Evil, but that no longer pertains to the Spiritual Realm. Edit #3. Guess what, its time to discuss the Spiritual aspects of the Surges! This also is crop full of OB spoilers, because of how much spiritual stuff happens there. Some of them are more interesting than others, but here we go. Adhesion- stickiness. Also allows to make connection, which is very interesting use of that surge, Dalinar. Its also not a permanent change, apparently. Furthermore, I hypothesize that this surge is why the dramatic stuff occurs. The adhesion makes the realms stick together a little more, making big dramatic glowy lightshows when our MC swears their oaths. How the windrunners use this surge to control the winds... well I think this surge is one of the closest ones to Honor. Sticking things together, and atmospheric pressure... well essentially I think the winds are highly "adhesive", and kaladin is able to manipulate them through that. But thats not really important to the spiritual realm, so I'll move on. Gravitation- I'm not sure what spiritual aspects this has, besides how the surge actually is applied- lashings are just manipulations of one's connection to the planet. By connecting yourself in different directions, you create the basic lashing and stuff. Division- I guess this is just breaking spiritually stuff? We haven't seen this much on screen, but I imagine just like soulcasting you need enough Stormlight to overcome the spirit web of the thing you are targeting. Abrasion- The best thing I have for this is getting along well with people- or not. Again, we don't know much about this surge's other applications. Progression- finally something interesting. Regrowth works like all the other healing things, healing to one's cognitive ideal. It also accelerates growth of plants, which I imagine works by boosting their spirit webs or something or whatever. Illumination- This one is juicy. Shallan seems to almost create false spirit webs to coat her own. Her identity is becoming somewhat fragmented by her deicisions, but that is not a discussion for this thread. The important thing is that it is a lot like Forgery. I am very, VERY interested in seeing how Hoid puts this surge to use, along with his natural Yolish lightweaving. Also, her drawings- they seem to be connected to her, slightly invested. They are somewhat of a crutch for her, but I think the gist of it is that she is creating false spirit webs, temporary ones, very transient ones. But spirit webs nevertheless. Transformation- This is probably the most interesting of all the surges. It transforms one spirit web into another. It is also directly related to how complicated something is to make, in terms of how hard it is to soulcast. Soulcasting also seems to be a more spiritual thing- Shallan changes people. However, I'm not entirely sure how this works, or whether that is something that can even be actually harnessed. I think its most important spiritual aspect is being able to change a spirit web completely- while retaining a things shape. This is interesting, because that indicates that the "shape" is different from the identity of the object. The identity of the object is clearly changing, from rock to oil or whatever, but the volume and shape is still maintained. I imagine any differences in mass due to imperfect transformation of absolute mass (aka not every particle of mass adds up into the transformed product,) is just absorbed into the cost of the investiture. Transportation- I think Jasnah is using it wrong. She did something like what the corrupted oathgate did- the perpendicularity only went into the cognitive realm, NOT the spiritual. Essentially, I think she needs to figure out how to actually "bounce" off the spiritual realm, as I imagine it. In actuality, its basically just changing your spiritual aspect of "where I am right now" to a different where. I imagine once she figures this out, she will become even more OP than she already is. Also, I believe we will see more of this surge in book 4, especially as it will be Venli/Eshonai book, and her first surge she learns should be Transportation, not Cohesion. So hopefully we'll get some Roshar-hopping in whatever that book ends up being called. Cohesion- We basically haven't seen much of this surge, besides turning the ground to mush. I imagine it's just changing the fluidity of the object- not changing the objects identity, but making the shape part of the spirit web more moldable. Or something. Tension- We haven't seen this surge at all. It is probably similar to how Cohesion works, besides making things more stiff instead of making them into putty. Edit #4. Well it's been a while since I updated this post, but Oversleep got this awesome WoB that is begging me to unpack it. There's already a thread to discuss it, but I want to discuss some of the important pieces of it, and how it applies to my view of the Spirit Realm. There is also another WoB regarding my theory on Adonalsium that I'll talk about after this. Specifically, it talks about several things, the dichotomy of how things can be everywhere and yet somewhere at the same time. How can a Shard move? How does Autonomy create these odd Aspects? (Which his rambling seems to hint that I am right about Autonomy creating more minds to expand the amount of investiture that she can access). But what we really want to talk about is this Investiture spin. Which makes perfect sense, I'm pretty sure I've thought about it before, but this adds a whole new realm to how quantum investiture works. Ok, so essentially the spin is a state. A state of being. It's really weird in quantum physics. But let me put Brandon's words into my own, to see if I can better explain what I'm getting at. Adonalsium had all things under one spin, one mind, one soul. And when that mind was shattered along with its power, it split into different pieces, different ideal for different traits. These ideals are something that are hard to describe, leading to the interesting subject of naming the shards. But this idea of investiture having spin explains why the Shattering was so different from a splintering. Adonalsium was truly everything, and when it died, everything changed. When a shard dies, there isn't a fundamental change in the universe, that spin still exists. So, I am declaring Adonalsium officially and completely dead. I don't think it can come back. It would require all investiture to be tuned to a single spin again, which, frankly, seems impossible. Furthermore, this makes more sense than the spirit web explanation, although... I just had a brain wave of an idea regarding micro-spins, and that being how connection works, but I literally just thought of it, and so I'll move on and think about spin being related to connection and all that later. So, spin. I want to suggest that the corruption and mixing of investiture is simply a shard taking investiture thats one spin and forcing it to be another, and it not entirely working. It doesn't quite match, because the connection isn't there. Mixing investiture is weird, because you would have spins that don't sync up. But think of it this way- things that are similar are connected. So a similar spin would be connected to something else with a similar spin. These connections form the shard. And possibly, (micro spin) even human spirit webs. I feel like I'm riffing a bit, but this WoB is seriously huge. Entire books of talking about investiture? SIGN ME UP. I will eat that stuff like I eat nutella and cheezits (no, not at the same time). I understand why Sanderson struggles with explaining it quickly, because I think I understand what he's getting at, but its really hard to put it into words. I'll try one more time. With this explanation, the idea comes to mind a different way of explaining spirit webs- quantumly. Where the webs are made of Investits (the unit I just made up, don't judge), and that connection comes from being similar to one another. The more similar they are, the more connected they are. These connections make webs. Within the larger tunings, small adjustments are made that create different connections. This works in my head, and I don't still know how to describe it properly. It's like entangelment, but on a greater scale if that makes sense, where two particles are the same and so become entangled, except with connection its not just one pair but lots and lots of particles. And now I'm rambling again. Moving on, there was a WoB that essentially addressed the idea of Investiture and Adonalsium, as some people seem to think- in world- that investiture seeks sentience because it was a part of Adonalsium. I think this is a good idea, but doesn't work with the fundamental understanding of the origin of the universe (assuming it started like our own). I just don't see that Adonalsium was all investiture from the moment the Universe began. I think that that happened over time, that raw investiture compiled into Adonalsium, forming its infinite mind and soul. It makes more sense than instant formation, to me. Finally, because it came up on discord, relating to the shards intents- these things are spiritual ideals, aspects of Adonalsiums personality and of the forces of the universe. Of laws, of growth, of giving and change. These cannot be accurately described by a single word. The words that we use to call shards are approximations. Much like most of my explaining. Anyway, I hope my rambling explains something for you. Once again, most of it is speculation, but I think it is pretty on the nose as to how it works. TL;DR: Spirity Wirity Investy Webby Stuff.
  8. 35 points
  9. 34 points
    Hey, did you see Vasher? Who Zahel you talking about?
  10. 33 points
    Can I just say right here how lovely Renarin is as a person? He just cares. He’s so nice. I love that kid so much - and all the while he’s worried that he’s turning evil - so much so that he’s willing to let his cousin kill him because he thinks he’s dangerous. Even more; he saw it coming and just accepted his fate. Which leads to Jasnah’s best scene. Also, Evi. Can we talk about Evi? One of the most consistently kind, loving, generous people in this world? So much so that she walks herself into a condemned city in order to give it one last chance at life. The woman who raises her kids to love and honour their father, because of the goodness she sees in him that struggles to break through his addiction to the Thrill. And all the while she’s living in a society that mocks her and everything she stands for. That thinks she’s weak for disliking killing, that thinks she’s weird for liking (and being public about) hugs, that thinks she’s slow for not being constantly biting and cruel to those around her through a wit she hasn’t honed. She’s the only one who’s happy to hear that her husband didn’t murder a child. She’s a vote of sanity and peace in a brutal and insane culture. Do you wonder that we like Adolin and Renarin so much? They are her children as much or more than they are Dalinar’s. They have the power and honour of the Dalinar, tempered by the gentle loving nature of their mother. We need more Evi’s in the world. (Roshar and Earth).
  11. 32 points
    Discussion of intent has come up quite a bit lately, so I feel it's about time to formally put down this theory. I've listed many of the points I'll make here elsewhere, but I've never strung them together in one place (excluding Discord). Section 1: Origins To begin, we must address the Shattering. We know that a group consisting of at least 16 people somehow killed a divine entity, and split it's power among themselves. Each of these pieces has an intent which demands the power they hold be used in certain ways. I believe that these intents are quite literally Adonalsium torn asunder. I believe that Adonalsium had no Vessel. The sheer amount of investiture that comprised the sum of all shards means that when it developed a mind it easily surpassed sentience, and became a sapient being. When a Shard is splintered, the Vessel is no longer holding the power and it is separated from the mind that guided it, whether that Vessel was killed or merely gave up the power. This was not an option for Adonalsium. It was the power. When it was Shattered, the mind was shattered with it, and the remnants of that mind became the intents that drive the Shards we know. Section 2: Interpretation The intents of the shard are, by this idea, far more malleable than is often stated. This is speculation, and I base it largely on Ati, and I see no real way to confirm or deny this until we see a single shard change hands and be held long enough to express its intent. A mind is needed to guide the Shard. The Vessels can alter the way that that power is made manifest. My view on this, is that the names of the Shards that we know is not the pure intent of the Shards themselves, but the interpretation of that core concept by their Vessel. Much of this grew out of my head canon for Ati. In the letters between Hoid and Frost we are told that Ati was a "kind and gentle man," and yet he become a monster that reveled in the death and suffering of all. I believe that the kind and gentle man viewed Ruin as a monstrous force that needed to be contained, and Leras agreed with him. They worked together to attempt to contain this immeasurable force. It was Ati's belief that was his undoing. His interpretation of the force of Ruin as monstrous and destructive created the very monster that he feared. His interpretation forced the Shard to manifest in the way he believed, and this was so at odds with his nature that it overcame and consumed him. But a Shard still requires a mind to guide it. So while his interpretation of Ruin subsumed his personality, it was still shaped by the belief that caused it to be so violent and sadistic. Sazed in contrast views Ruin as a natural force. I don't think he would become that creature even if he held only Ruin. For a hypothetical example of what I mean, look at Vin. She did not hold the Shard of Preservation long enough for us to know what the outcome would be. Considering her immediate actions, I propose that she could have been called "Salvation" or "Protection." Shifting the focus away from stasis, to "preserving" life. It is a drastically different interpretation of a concept that exists at the core of both words. The protection of what is. Due to this interpretation, I don't believe that any attempt to categories the Shards is possible until we see them with different Vessels and are able to try and determine what the actual core concept of each is, and what was actually taken from Adonalsium itself. So perhaps Rayse is not lying, and Passion truly is the core intent of what he holds. The name Odium is known though, and regardless of what he states, I think it is the intent he has made manifest.
  12. 32 points
    "I can lash if I want to, I can leave your friends behind. Because your friends don't lash and if they don't lash then their no friends of mine." - Windrunners 4th Ideal
  13. 31 points
    So I've been focusing a lot lately on Shallan and Adolin, but I was doing some rereading and came across some text that I want to bring up concerning Kaladin and his decision making. At the end of the book, when Kaladin is reflecting on things while also looking down upon our soon to be newlyweds, we see him performing an action during his contemplation. The full scene: So, there is a lot going on in this very small scene. But the thing I want to focus on is the decision that Kaladin is making here, and how it is very much symbolically tied to another decision he has made via the stone. The last time in Oathbringer we saw him make a decision related to his romantic feelings towards someone, guess what was present? So in the scene with Tarah, Kaladin is confronted with making a choice that he is not capable of making, because of the weight he is carrying around, symbolized by the rock that reminds him of his brother. For him, at this point, it's not even a choice, because he is incapable of setting down the burden he has chosen. I think that I'm safe in saying that most of us would agree that Tarah's last physical words to him are a good clue as to the thing that Kaladin has to accept as part of his next oath and progression for him. He even seems to know what it is, later, and is unable to commit to it. I find it interesting that Brandon chose to tie these two scenes together with this symbolism. In the scene concerning Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin is relieved that Shallan has seemingly made her choice, because it relieves him of the burden of having to make one himself. He gets to keep carrying his rock. In both scenes, Kaladin is confronted with a challenge to prioritizing his feelings for the living (in the form of women he loves), or to dwell on his past failures and the dead left in their wake. Making the decision he did with Tarah was not right for his growth and acceptance of himself, and that scene is symbolically tied to him making the "decision" about Shallan and Adolin, which is also not right for his growth and personal acceptance. I find it interesting symmetry that both Shallan and Kaladin's progression (or their abrupt halting of it) is so very neatly tied up with romantic feelings. Shallan allows Adolin to decide who she should be, and what she should do. She thinks the choice is hers, while simultaneously forcing the opinions of the other facets of her personality to the back. She gets to stay right where she is, because facing those other facets of herself scare her, she doesn't want to move forward. Similarly Kaladin refuses to make a choice, and instead finds comfort in giving up that choice to someone else, because it allows him to stay where he is. He didn't feel resignation either. Instead he felt ... agreement? He feels agreement because this is also what he wants, to not make a decision, to not have to act on this, because he's afraid of stepping forward. Contrast what he says in that chapter with what he says earlier in the book: I don't believe for a second that Kaladin could have some of the most pronounced and detailed feelings that we've seen from his POV yet here, and then turn around and wave those away as simply "I felt ...something. A lightening of my burdens". During the scene on the roof when Shadolin are making their passion for each other known, Kaladin is still trying to work out his feelings for her, and he decides, yet again, that they are less than what they are. Not only because she is already "taken". Not only because of his respect for her betrothed. But because it allows him to continue to hide, to remain static, to do what he has always done. Shallan and Kaladin are both making choices, or not making choices, that leave them in a static state, unable to progress further on their own respective paths of Radiancy. And these choices are both wrapped up in denying the feelings they have for each other. If that isn't an indication that they are not done, then I don't know what is. You know, sometimes I wonder just how people who were happy with the romantic ending at the end of OB could NOT see this stuff. Then I think, perhaps, Brandon is happy with this state of affairs, as it means he is doing something right, hiding it so well, that a large chunk of the readership are going to be primed and ready for his next big surprise for them. ...then again, it could also be I who is the dupe...
  14. 28 points
    On my way to class this morning I was thinking how the Adolin/Shallan/Kaladin triangle might be mirroring the Gavilar/Navani/Dalinar one, and how that would cheapen both plots. But then it hit me. What if it's just different enough to work. What if instead of Adolin=Gavilar/Shallan=Navani/Kaladin=Dalinar we have Adolin=Evi/Shallan=Dalinar/Kaladin=Navani. Indulge me for a minute. Adolin like Evi is a genuinely good person but, in Ialai's word's about Evi, a bit vapid who try to help their partner the best they can (Evi consoling Dalinar and telling him that he doesn't have to be like a beast/ Adolin being, well, Adolin with Shallan). Shallan is the one pressured into the marriage by Jasnah and Navani, while Dalinar is pressured by friends and family, with the added bonus that they both have some kind of mental issue and they both idly fantasize about Kaladin and Navani respectively, but in the end they give in to the internal and external pressure. Regarding the connection between Kaladin and Navani I don't have much due to the lack of prespective from Navani, just that the odd looks she gave Dalinar vaguely fit with Kaladin and his actions, and the fact that Navani has said, in The Way of Kings, how much she hated how Evi seemed to fit Dalinar so perfectly, a sentiment that Kaladin has also expressed in regards to Adolin and Shallan. So what does this hold for the future? Well, I think that Shallan will continue to ridicule Kaladin as Dalinar attempted to freeze out Navani, giving the wrong message (That he hated her.) and that Kaladin will make the safe choice regarding his romantic life, whether it'll contain a partner or not. So what do you think? I know that it doesn't exactly fit, but that's what I find most promising about it, is just similar enough as to not copy the other plot and different enough that it suggest that the endings won't allign (Adolin/Evi dying). Too far-fetched or not far-fetched enough or by the Almighty @DimChatz you'll grasp at all the straws and nothing actually fit, you just make it seem like the do?
  15. 26 points
    I was at the Oathbringer reading in Beaverton, and I got to ask Brandon a question from the audience, I had a spoiler free question ready: With enough breaths and given the proper command, could an awakened toupee be commanded to behave like real hair, and would it believable. Brandon said yes, that should work. I then asked would if it be able to respond to different conditions, like a strong breeze and still be believable as real hair, and he said yes it would. Then I asked if a toupee could be awakened and given the command to protect, and he said yes but that would be weird. So I did this little sketch of what could possibly be the best thing to happen to the Cosmere since Kelsier punched god in the afterlife: Nightwig, a fully awakened toupee, given the command to "Live Beautifully, and Fix Ugly".
  16. 26 points
    This is going up a bit early, just because people are already talking about it and new folks are asking questions. @Chaos says the old thread isn't good enough and tasked me with making a new one, probably because I opened my big mouth at just the wrong time. So lo, the explanation comes: in just a bare few weeks, an annual phenomenon of confusion will bear down upon us like a shower of angry Tribbles.* Every year, as the days short and the weather grows cold, we creep slowly towards two great holidays that hover near the end of the year, ready to embrace us into their festivities. Families will gather, feasts will be had, and general revelry will echo throughout the land! I refer, of course, to the birthdays of Peter Ahlstrom and Brandon Sanderson.** If you don't know who Peter is, well, he's Brandon's assistant, and pours a ton of work into supporting the writing endeavors of our favorite author. Back in the days of the Timewasters' Guide, he roamed the forums under the moniker "Ookla the Mok." In order to remember and honor the days when he still had time to frolick among us unhindered, we change our screen names to some variant of "Ookla the <____>" beginning on his birthday, November 26. It's all terribly bewildering if you don't know what's happening. I joined the forum in late October of 2014, so I had barely a month to get settled in before suddenly I was surrounded by Ooklas. They were everywhere. So many Ooklas. And I had no idea why. So now I tell you all, so that hopefully you will be less confused than I was as a poor ickle noob. A lot of folks just play with it for a week or so, but some are hardcore enough to keep the madness going until Koloss Head-Munching Day (aka Brandon's birthday) in December. Enjoy the upcoming festivities! *Don't worry. The Tribbles have tiny parachutes. They'll be fine. **Why, what holidays did you think I meant?
  17. 26 points
    Basic moto of the site: We can't be wrong if we predict every single possibility!
  18. 24 points
  19. 24 points
  20. 24 points
    Q: How do you get a one-armed herdazian out of a tree? A: Wave! Disclaimer: This joke was told by Brandon to a fan at a signing, so it's not originally mine.
  21. 23 points
    For all you programmers out there: Elantris
  22. 23 points
  23. 20 points
    I am reaching, but I fall And the stars are black and cold As I stare into the void Of a world that cannot hold I'll escape now from that world From the world of Jean Valjean There is nowhere I can turn There is no way to go oooooooooooon!!!! Javert opened his eyes. He was drenched. His coat was dripping with muddy water, and behind him flowed the Seine. He felt cold. Was this...Paradise? A man stood before him, wearing a crisp black and silver uniform. Dark of skin, a pale scar on his cheek. Authority radiated from him, and Javert straightened instinctively. Javert frowned. “Who are you?” “You know me.” And… he did. Instinctively. He had never met this man before, but…somehow... “I threw myself off a bridge.” “And I restored you. A drowned man only needs the proper ministrations.” “Who are you?” “You, Javert, revere order, do you not? You follow the law of your society to perfection. This attracted me, though I fear that emotion has clouded your ability to discern. Your ability to...judge.” Judgement. “You are...Justice?” “Herald of Justice, though not of your world.” “Why save me? Was my torment not enough?” “These words are foolishness, said Justice, unbecoming of one who would study beneath me.” “...Study?” He squeezed his eyes shut, remembering that terrible, terrible choice that had torn him apart. “I want to be judged.” “I watched you pursue a breaker of the law, tireless, relentless. Your dedication to your personal code is one to be admired. You kept your word to the law with perfection - the only genuine beauty left to the world. I judge you, and have found you worthy of the Skybreakers.” “The...skybreakers?” “Come along. Your training begins immediately.”
  24. 20 points
    Further to this, there's a theory going around (which I think is basically correct) that this was the reason for the Recreance. The False Desolation and the Recreance seem to have happened in a very short time horizon of each other and imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram was what ended the False Desolation. The Radiants, who now know that surgebinding destroyed Ashyn and that Honour is dying, manage to completely lobotomise almost the entire Singer population of Roshar and so confirm that surgebinding is, in fact, something terrible and to be avoided. From there it doesn't seem implausible that they would abandon their oaths especially as they now believe that having imprisoned Ba-Ado-Mishram that forms of power are gone and there isn't really a reason for them anymore.
  25. 20 points
    I think you are thinking about Nightblood and Azure the wrong way around. They aren't cameos that you need Warbreaker to understand. They are key characters that we learn every bit as much about here as we did in that book, who happen to have an excellent prequel showing their background story if you care about it. this is their real series, Warbreaker is their Magician's Apprentice
  26. 20 points
    What's Kaladin's favourite flavour of gum? Spearmint.
  27. 19 points
    In a relationship. Yes. Pop culture has next to no good relationships. We need to change that. People learn from fiction and if all they learn is drama all they do is drama.
  28. 18 points
    For a third novel in a row everything Syl touches turns to pure gold. Sure there were deeply emotional and inspiring and haunting moments in Oathbringer, but nothing was better than this:
  29. 18 points
  30. 18 points
    What do you call an Elantrian who leaves their home planet? A Sel-out.
  31. 17 points
    Adolin is such a fascinating character because I'm not sure if Brandon accidentally wrote him as the 100% perfect boyfriend or if he's doing a really clever subversion about what people think they want from an ideal relationship partner vs. what a mature relationship entails. Adolin is like the product of a focus group working to synthesize the perfect "nice" boyfriend found in so many romantic comedies. He's a prince (but not the kind of Prince that has important duties which interfere with your homelife, the Disney kind of Prince) and never needs to worry about money or jobs. He's extremely good looking and fashionably dressed. He has a kind heart and makes instant friends with everyone. He constantly compliments you, calls you beautiful, says he's the lucky one in the relationship, and loves you just the way you are. His closest thing to a remaining character flaw (now that his classism is gone and his propensity for rapidly changing romantic partners seems completely abandoned) is that one time let himself be goaded (by threats to his loved ones!) into killing possibly the worst human being on the planet and then still felt bad about it afterwards. He's also not exceptionally bright. Not stupid by any means, but you never have to worry about him making you feel intellectually inferior. On a rather shallow level Adolin is the perfect ideal boyfriend. So what's missing? Adolin gives no signs that his relationship with Shallan can ever progress much beyond what they have right now. He'll never challenge her to better herself in any way, because he already thinks she's perfect and pretty much tells her so. He's supportive to the point of risking being an enabler (a huge problem with the current path Shallan's psyche is taking). If they ever have an argument, he'll probably just let her win (which will stop being cute very quickly). What do they actually talk about once they run out of compliments for each other and briefly touching on current events? Will Shallan start to resent Adolin for not being as intelligent and verbose as her, and then resent herself for looking down on Adolin in that way? I don't think they'll be miserable together, but their relationship seems built on such shallow foundations that I'm not sure it can grow and mature. Brandon gave a comment that Shallan's wit is partially based on Jane Austen characters. In hindsight I can definitely see that, barring the traumatic past her personality type is very much like a Jane Austen protagonist. The ideal matches in Jane Austen novels were partners, people who intellectually challenged you and were strongly driven by an internal moral code that complemented your own. Adolin is kind, supportive and and an all around wonderful human being, but he's no Mr. Darcy. There was this other very Mr. Darcy-like character who was brooding, witty, verbally fenced with Shallan for long strings of fast-paced dialogue, and was utterly driven by his internal moral code of right and wrong, but that's not who Shallan chose in the end. The question now becomes was Brandon just subverting expectations by having his Jane Austen protagonist chose the unexpected suitor, or will Shallan and Adolin's puppy love relationship get a harsh dose of reality in the near future?
  32. 17 points
    When you fit all of the cosmere novels your family owns onto the bookshelf right next to your bed. Yep, I only have nine, but with Oathvember coming up, I guess you can say I'll have TenSoon.
  33. 16 points
    Hello Sharders! First time poster here, I found this forum back when WoR was published, lurked for a while, then fell away while waiting for OB. When OB was published, I immediately came back, to see what you all had to say. This thread has not disappointed in the slightest, I've been blown away by the analysis and discussion I've found on here. I've been in favor of Shalladin since the first time they met, but I admit I'd accepted that the triangle was over, and Shadolin was canon, upon completing the book. Welp, you guys have convinced me to rejoin the good ship Shalladin, so please forgive my lack of faith! @PhineasGage, that was an incredible essay, I really appreciated your in depth analysis, and look forward to seeing your OB update. One thing your section on Shadolin brought to mind was Sanderson's portrayal of love as a choice. A lot of Shadolin shippers have brought up this perspective of his, and believe it supports their ship. I believe that the scene of Shallan forcing the kiss after the Chasm, and, as @SLNC pointed out, forcing, or at least rushing the marriage, shows the flaw in this reasoning. Love may be a choice, but it has to be a choice towards someone. Even in the arranged marriages that are brought up so often, nobody chooses to go through with it to run away from someone else. And in the SA, we know Navani chose Gavinar because she was running from her feelings for Dalinar, and we saw how that turned out. Let's look at those "Shadolin" scenes again. In the post-chasm scene, Shallan has obviously just shared an incredibly romantic experience with Kaladin. But, as we've been reminded throughout WoR, she needs to be with Adolin, for a variety of practical and compelling reasons. So what does she do? She forces (Sanderson's word, not mine) a passionate kiss on him, clearly trying to increase her feelings for Adolin again. And, when he holds her, she uses the opportunity to minimize the importance of Kaladin holding her all night, saying that it felt "nice to be held," as if that was the only reason she'd enjoyed her night with him. And I believe the same thing is going on when she "chooses" Adolin at the end of OB. She's not choosing to love him, she's instead choosing to be the "Shallan" that is with Adolin. So long as her alts we're torn, she stayed in limbo, as soon as they agree on Kaladin, she makes a snap judgment away from him, and when Adolin tries to break up, she doesn't just convince him to stay together, but to get married! It's the same over compensation as the WoR scene, and again it seems to be a decision made for the purpose of convincing herself, rather than the result of an organic desire to be with Adolin. Anyway, that was my takeaway from this incredible thread so far, thanks so much you guys, keep up the great work!
  34. 16 points
    I'm not going to bother reading everything here so i'll just drop this: I think she and Kaladin are making the wrong choice. Shallan and Kaladin's relationship has only just begun. Like Dalinar before him, Kaladin capitulated out of friendship and authority at the expense of not only himself but Shallan too. Whatever Adolin has to offer, words of encouragement, stability and intimacy of the flesh won't be what satiates her soul, her yearning and her sense of purpose. Kaladin on the other hand offers her an intimacy of the soul, the deep understanding of being broken and something to work towards, to mend and fix. In my opinion women in this series have been represented in a very unique light, one that has given me a new perspective. Where some of us men might feel an innate desire to protect and provide for and shatter at the sight of a crying woman, some women might have a similar compulsion towards broken men or men who are somehow wrong or rough on the edges, to fix them or make them whole. A purpose whose reward and compulsion could be greater than stability and the safety of comfort. Dalinar, Navani and Evi are all painted in this light. A broken and quite evil of a man backed by women who could have gotten a much more comfortable accommodation, later to be shaped by these same women into something greater. The women in this book are very cultivation like. Adolin is a dun seed, a dun sphere, vanilla ice cream whereas Kaladin is a tempest, a storm with a gravitational pull of his own. It's very difficult to put my thoughts into words. They're not really well fleshed out yet but they do make sense in my head. I've been wrong before, like the murder. The author doesn't seem to always put a cliffhanger in order to follow up but also as a feint. With ASK triangle we've got the only sliver of romance in the series and i doubt the author will allow this tension to dissipate without adding a new romance or a romantic tension/development into the book. Adoshall marriage would be all fluff and if kaladin trully accepted this you'd suddenly lose love in the book and i think that's unlikely. Shallan is still clinging onto the locked up and tormented veden self which is not who she really is. Shallan is the girl that ran off on her own, with no parents and a sack of money across the dangerous world to pursue adventure and discovery, not the homely, courtly gal that'd settle for being comfortable. She's the girl that stares down the tempest and shapes it and not one to dally with dun spheres. Also Kaladin should absolutely not stay alone. He's terrifyingly broken, disillusioned and burdened by what's happening around him and while syl, she's managing to stop him off the figurative cliff, time and time again it is not enough for him. He is stuck. He doesn't just need a woman but a sun that would radiate warmth and hope into his life. I think Shallan with her equally troubled past, a witty tongue and a sense of adventure that would keep his feet moving or his spheres running dry would match him perfectly.
  35. 16 points
    I am rereading Mistborn right now, and I got to this passage, where Vin burns one of Sazed's metalminds: I don't think we've fully grappled with what this means - using unkeyed metalminds, any Allomancer will be able to compound. That DRAMATICALLY increases the power of Mistings, provided they have access to unkeyed metalminds. Every gold Misting can compound healing, every steel Misting can compound speed, etc. Another important impact here is that it makes Allomancy a team sport. A Misting with the support of a powerful organization (perhaps the Set) would have a huge advantage over a Misting trying to operate on their own. It also makes previously useless Mistings useful all of a sudden, provided they can get the metalminds.
  36. 16 points
    Morning all. EVeryone feeling good about being in the most active, ambitious and wonderful thread on the forums? I hope so So I agree that the "triangle" is finished given that there is a year time-gap planned between end of OB and beginning of book 4. That being said, I think there are a reasonable reasons for thinking that the marriage between Adolin and Shallan is going to be less than happy. I mean for one thing, it is massively rushed. A second thing is that Adolin is treating Veil as a drinking buddy. I don't know about you but when I've been out with my SO, he isn't suddenly my drinking buddy, he remains my SO even if we are playing drinking games. My relationship with him doesn't shift according to what I am doing or the mood I am in - it has shifted over time according to our level of attachment, but not on a moment by moment basis. I do agree that Kaladin has dodged a bullet for now. Unfortunately Adolin is about to take it instead. And I'm not sure if he'll survive the encounter. Note, even if he becomes an Edgedancer proper, we haven't seen a Radiant die yet. That is worrying on all sorts of levels. @Greywatch I've noticed that you perhaps don't want to continue arguing so whilst I have a number of comments on your post, I will try to be as non-confrontational as possible. You are entirely correct in that this is ultimately down to personal takes on how to read the characters, how much subtext to include, and how each interaction is coloured. I will reply with my own comments below, but I do think you have made your points very well and they are very convincing, but I think you and I are never going to line up on this one! I am happy to drop any conflict here, but I do want to discuss the alternative views each situation can make - more for those joining the discussion who are yet to solidify their own feelings so they see as many possible interpretations as possible. I get your point, and i can definitely be taken that way. I always saw it more as Shallan being essentially bullied into the situation by Tyn and reacting badly to it. On top of that, despite her priviledged position, Shallan is in a precarious place here. She is playing different parts for Tyn, the ccaravan owner (whose name I forget), Tvlakv the slaver, and the deserters she's just essentially hijacked by Lightweaving. I think she was likely trying to show off for Tyn, which whilst not nice for Kaladin, is not the end of the world., and also show that she had some control. I agree that it was possibly not the best of starts, but my point remains. She had lied to Kaladin about being a Horneater princess - and he knows it. Right from that moment - he says "If you were attacked..." to Tyn - I am sure he has at least got doubts - she is in a Vorin dress for a start. This means there was already an element of conflict that would have been enough to cause some difficulties between them. The boots thing was not specifically necessary except to be used as a way to judge the nature of their evolving relationship - going from resentment on both sides, to being able to laugh about it. Actually I agree with you completely here. Not sure how I made myself unclear and I apologise for doing so. Dissociation, almost by definition, is a coping mechanism. Various forms of it are normal as long as they don't become prolonged or occur too frequently. Some occur as part of other neurological phenomena such as migraines or epilepsy. Other occur after trauma (flashbacks in PTSD are a form of dissociation for example). She isn't ready to let go of them, but then, people with DID aren't either, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be helped to try - continuing down this route could very well leave her in a completely dysfunctional state. Ok, so I;m going to be a bit confrontational here. Current medical and psychiatric practice shows (with good evidence) that allowing a dissociating person to solidify the barriers between their personas is worsens their prognosis. Assuming (and yes, I am assuming that she has a real-world diagnosable condition) that she has either DID (or, as @FuzzyWordsmith helped me realise) more likely OSDD - see here for details: http://traumadissociation.com/osdd then the best course of action is to treat her the same regardless of which persona she is currently wearing. As a point, I'd like to call on @FuzzyWordsmith to help me explain the differences between OSDD and DID for the community here because I am a little fuzzy (pun intended) on them. Additionally, I do not blame Adolin for making this mistake - he is acting with the best intentions. He is not to blame for Shallan's current issues, and he is not to blame if he makes them worse by mistake because he cannot, at this stage at least, know any better. That being said, he has married her which means he is taking on the responsibility of being her main support structure. He could have chosen not to, but he pushed the situation and that in turn resulted in Shallan rushing a decision. Again, it isn't his fault, but that doesn't mean that his actions did not help lead them both here. I'm had felt I had made myself clear that I was not blaming Adolin. But there is a difference between blame and responsibility. For example, Kaladin is responsible for the men of Bridge 4, but he is not to blame for them dying when on the bridge runs. In the same way, Shallan is not to blame for having a mental health problem, but she is responsible for her own healing. Quick point, but generally progression into DID or OSDD is actually quite quick IRL. It is often the result of a specific traumatic trigger. There usually have been some dissociating behaviours present prior to division of the core personality. Shallan fits this pattern (Pattern?) as she has blackouts and periods of depersonalisation (going "cold") before we see full personality dissociation in OB. I am not clear whether the Shallan of tWoK and WoR is a persona but I am certain that by the end of OB it definitely is. The more I have read about DID and OSDD the more I realised that she has some very "textbook" elements to her situation. 'Dating' - you are absolutely right. But they aren't dating. They are married. Now obviously there are some personal takes on this and anyway we are modern RL people and the characters are Medieval-esque and fictional so their social norms and mores are going to be radically different. On top of that both would have grown up expecting an arranged marriage which does not seem to be the norm for people in this thread (if there is anyone here with either the experience of an arranged marriage or the expectation of one I;d love to get their insight). I guess my problem is that their relationship is still so ..... young and immature - I don't mean the characters (although that is also true imo) but that they are still trying to understand some basic core ideas of each other's personalities. Everyone has to start at that point, but most of us aren't getting married while still in that stage. Oh, I'm not. I have stated more than once that I think Kaladin dodged a bullet (for now). I am a Shalladin shipper but I was enormously relieved that she didn't choose him at the end because "ain't nobody got time for dat". My point has always been that I felt low at the end because when Shallan chose Adolin, it felt rushed. I was also disappointed to see no specific scenes that mirrored the chasm sequence of chapters in WoR - either with Adolin or Kaladin. On top of that I am genuinely concerned for Adolin. He's a good bloke. He is one of the only characters who is properly normal and I like that juxtaposition with the madness of the Radiants around him - some more than others. I think Shallan is bad for him. I think she chose him for the wrong reasons. I think they haven't known each other long enough to be sure that this is going to work and I am not convinced that Shallan will actually give him the support he needs and deserves - yes she may need more support than he does but that doesn;t mean he should get nothing back from her. I don't agree that Adolin's version isn't idealised, but then I suppose that's obvious I feel that Adolin has a clear image of Shallan in his head but that it is the one Shallan put there. Shallan herself in WoR says that her relationship with Adolin is like the one she has with Mraize and that she has to go beyond expectations etc. Adolin may have got a perfectly good idea of what that Shallan looks like, but it doesn't mean he's got her as a whole. I see very little evidence that she has changed her modus operandi when it comes to interacting with Adolin. She still presents the "innocent lively Shallan. Quick with a quip. even when nobody wants to hear it. Earnest, but sometimes overeager." (Chapter 29 OB) to him through most of OB. Even when he sees Veil, he not only separates her from "the real" Shallan, but she strongly feels that the real one is the one I just described. On another note, not sure how much Shallan idealises Kaladin. I mean, he glows and flies... difficult not to I suppose, but I don't remember a specific moment when she clearly thinks about him in a way that doesn't essentially line up with who he is as a person - I'm happy to be corrected. Kaladin though does idealise Shallan a bit though as he tends to see her "light" (like he did with Tien) rather than the darkness behind it. Oh, I'm also pretty sure Shallan doesn't idealise Adolin either - at least I think her own estimations of him line up with mine. Ok, so I fully admit to finding Adolin bland but I don't completely agree that it is because of a lack of page time (although there is certainly an element of that). My own personal take on him is that he is just, well, not that bright. I guess he and I would get on fairly well in real life - after all it is nearly impossible to dislike the man, but honestly, his lack of intellectual curiosity would drive me nuts. He is quite happy to listen to Shallan talk about the chasmfiends or Navani talk about fabrials, but I don't think he does any actual work to learn something new for himself. I may be underestimating him here but unlike Renarin who secretly learns to read etc and seems to be intellectually curious, Adolin seems happy to just go along with it. I think Adolin's full arc isn't done. We dont have space for everything in one book, and there need to be things that tie the books together. So far, each of our main Mains (Shllan, Dalinar, Kaladin) have taken up a huge amount of page time in each book. Adolin is a major side character, so his arc, by necessessity needs to cross several books. We will not likely see him achieve the same levels as Shallan, Dalinar or Kaladin, in terms of Radianthood (if he gets there) but his arc will continue and be directly linked to the progression he has had as a character from tWoK through all the books. Yes, me too - his is one of the threads that seems the most likely to be picked up going forward and this means we can theorycraft with it as a baseline. I agree with basically eveything in this statement and want to highlight it again for anyone who missed it. *shakes hands with @Greywatch * On a side note, I'll happily jump ship when Adolin and Shallan give me something to get behind Storms, Shallan as a mother? Hasn't Gavinor suffered enough??! I also view Shallan as not bothering to tease Adolin (because he just didnt get it) as a form of condescension. She doesnt treat him as an equal which given that they are now married is not something that should fly.... pun somewhat intended. This has been confirmed by WoB: TGANCHERO How many oaths can a Radiant swear? BRANDON SANDERSON There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin. see http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=shallan+threshold I agree with almost eveything in your post here but the bit i've marked in bold, but the more I think about it the less I feel he is going to leave it. I don't think the triangle will be a thing in book 4 - but then, it wasn't really a thing in book 3 - Adolin and Kaladin weren't competing for Shallan, they were just being themselves. I also would prefer Adolin to remain as he is, he is a wonderful way to show how broken Shallan is because he is just so normal. I think is clear you and I are on the same page regarding this so other than to suggest others read your post I won't go into massive detail extolling it's virtues That said, I just want to clarify your last point. Agreed that Adolin does need to be persuaded regarding the menagerie but he doesn't wander off then - Kaladin goes to check on the disturbance (caused by Amaram and Dalinar anoucing the reformation of the KR) and that is where the scene ends. Adolin walks off when the three of them are on the plateaus prior to Kaladin and Shallan falling into the chasms. Kaladin mocks Adolin, Adolin brushes it off then walks over to some darkeyed water boys and lets them mess about with his plate, Shallan and Kaladin then briefly discuss the buildings on the Shattered Plains - and Shallan berates Kaladin for deliberately mocking Adolin in a way "he wouldn't understand". I always found it interesting that she felt the need to protect a prince with literally everything going for him from a darkeyed captain with slave brands. *shakes head* I mean, seriously, she essentially implies that she also believes Kaladin is cleverer than Adolin - which is obviously true, but given her implied classism she shouldn't be quite so ready to make up her mind on this one. I don't know, I just love the way they hate each other. Its so entertaining. Anyone else like the scene where they fight before he lets her in to see Dalinar for the first time? Kaladin is one of the few people she's met that she hasn't been able to instantly charm. She also touches him for a very long time in that segment given that they are essentially strangers, of vastly different social backgrounds, having a fight , and surrounded by people. I know she is touchy-feely as a person, but during a fairly venomous argument? I am not sure I buy it
  37. 16 points
    My favorite moment was when Jasnah's love didn't fail. There were so many moments in the book where she presented herself in an unfavorable light. This was just such a great reinforcement of her core character. Jasnah's love did not fail.
  38. 15 points
    First of all, thanks to the guys on Discord (particularly @Pagerunner and @Windrunner) for pointing out that a small Ghostblood symbol can be seen among Shallan's sketches of Shadesmar spren. You can check it out in the illustration right before Chapter 108. As someone who tried and failed to guess the nature of the symbol twice (here and here), allow me to post a somewhat cleaner version of the actual symbol for everyone's enjoyment: As you can see, it does reflect both the WoK description ("three diamonds in a pattern, overlapping one another") and the WoR description ("triangle"). Apparently Isaac had to do multiple drafts of the symbol, and we even had a detailed description of one of the candidates that looked totally different from how it eventually ended up. Here's a version of the symbol that shows one way to draw it in one stroke, and I colored it in a way I thought was appropriate (Ghost=grey, Blood=red):
  39. 15 points
    So, despite of what I actually said, I've been reading @PhineasGages essay last night, because I was just too curious (thank you for keeping me awake, Phin and I hope you are okay with me quoting these things. It is your work after all.) And there were a few things, that immediately sprung to my eye, while reading: When Shallan returns from the chasms, she forces Adolin into a kiss. Now. This is the exact wording: forces. Which is a strange word to use in the context of romance. Maybe I'm reading too much in this, but I'm seeing parallels to Shallan's decision at the end of Oathbringer. Adolin has (rightful) doubts of his place beside Shallan and voices those concerns. Shallan bursts into a tirade and it ends with her pulling Adolin towards her and kissing him. See, forcing. In that whole scene, never does Adolin take the initiative, even after Shallan made her intention to stay with him clear. Isn't that a bit weird? I think, that he is still doubtful, but Shallan doesn't even listen to his worries. Until he finally gives up. Another thing is, that when she tells Adolin, that she chose him, she doesn't tell him, why she chose him, but rather, why she didn't choose Kaladin! She is forcing/convincing herself to this. Same goes for the rush of the wedding. We don't have it in direct speech, but the way Shallan's inner monologue is worded, it can be interpreted, that she also was the driving factor there, because... well, she wanted to sleep with Adolin. I don't know. It all seems painfully rushed and forced. Just like it always has felt. Shallan always set the pace and Adolin never really had a say in it. I don't blame him, to be honest. As a guy, I'd probably take the opportunity too, if I was interested in Shallan, but it doesn't bode well for their relationship dynamic. It is extremely one-sided. Subvisual Haze put in very succintly here. Adolin has a soft spot for Shallan and I just don't see him contradict her in anything. If he does bring up the courage, she quickly reassures him, that everything is okay and that he needn't be worrying. She couldn't pull that rust with Kaladin. --- Another thing, that has been bugging me is, that there was quite a lot of talk about how Kaladin and Shallan only have sexual attraction, but nothing more substantial, while Adolin and Shallan actually understand each other. I, and bear with me here please, think, that it actually is the other way around. There is one pivotal mirror, that I've only just now seen. The deep look in the eyes. Kaladin: Adolin: Now, we have been wondering, how he did it, but we know have had Sanderson confirm, that it has something to do with visual cues and Lightweaving. I suspect eye color changes. (as in "bleeding" from one color to the next) And there we have the difference. When Adolin searched Shallan's eyes, he didn't look beneath the surface. He stayed on that. Kaladin? He saw what was beneath that. He looked deeper and he didn't just see an eye color change or something, but her feelings. They say that the eyes are the windows to the soul. Kaladin saw Shallan's soul - that broken mess. Adolin didn't. And this physical vs. spiritual thing pulls through the whole of their relationships. When Shallan thinks of Adolin, she basically only thinks of his hair and beautiful grin and strong strong arms, etc. She says different things. She praises him for his kindness and nobleness, but that is something, that basically everyone praises about Adolin. What she thinks is, that he is actually kind of simple-minded and bland, the only positive thing she thinks about him is that he is physically attractive. Well, and the kicker is, that Shallan wants to quickly marry to get sexually active. At least, that is what is implied. Honestly? If I were to compare Shallan's relationship with something out of our modern society. I'd call it good friends with benefits (approved by the Holy Vorin Church). She feels comfortable in his arms, thinks he's hot and wants to have sex with him, but is there anything deeper? No. No, I don't think so. When Shallan thinks of Kaladin, well, she thinks about: This is much, much deeper than just physical attraction. She describes Kaladin really well. She got him. After a few hours together in the chasm. This description of him describes the way he feels, not just how he always looks good. Same goes for Kaladin. When he looks at Shallan he often thinks about, what she might be thinking now. Or when this thing with the safehand revealing is, he doesn't dwell on the physical scandal of the situation, but rather immediately gets what she was trying to do with it. When he looks at her in flight, sure, he does notice her grace and beauty, but also that she is happy (and that he'd very much like to keep her that way by showing her how to really fly). When she is full of fear after the encounter with Ashertmarn, he knows exactly what he needs to do to calm her - make a punny joke. When she beings to talk about her theory regarding those mandras in Shadesmar, he immediately catches, when she grows excited. That is not to say, that there are no indicators of physical attraction between Kaladin and Shallan, but even there is a tiny, but important difference. Adolin and Shallan need one of them to make the first step for physical and eye contact. With Kaladin and Shallan, this comes naturally. Once again, I'll refer to Phin's essay: This is the second meeting between Kaladin and Shallan after the boots scene. What is this? They hardly know each other and have physical contact and long eye contact. Like I said, it comes naturally. Another thing is how she immediately starts to call Kaladin by his name, even if it wasn't necessary for the conversation. There are multiple examples of this down in the chasms: Once again, this stuff all comes naturally to them. Neither of them forces the other to do this. Kaladin and Shallan have much more spiritual compatibility, in addition to their physical attraction, which isn't even remotely forced, but completely natural. Whew, that has been a long one, but I felt like I needed to write this down.
  40. 15 points
    For me this thread ultimately boils down to faith in Brandon. I'd be happy to see Shallan's relationships evolve in many possible directions (or for her to end up single for that matter) as long as I believed in it and felt the outcome was properly earned. But this is not the case as of the end of OB. She rushed into something while in an unstable place and for the wrong reasons. But, we are 3 books into an arc of 5 (ultimately 10). There are tons of other big things that are unresolved as of the end of OB. When I think about, eg. how unconvinced I am by the explanation we were given for the cause of the Recreance, I don't worry for a moment that Brandon has written this poorly. Instead I think ho hum, there are secrets here waiting to be explored in the next book... So why DO I (plus it seems many others) worry about Shallan's marriage to Adolin? I've been pondering this and believe it has several root causes: Brandon has not in the past been the most deft at writing romances. Not that he's terrible at it, just not one of his strengths. He has a habit of writing arranged marriages that develop into true love with minimal hurdles along the way. Marriages in his books always seem stable and trouble free (even Sadeas and Ialai appeared happily married!) Stable, permanent marriages align with what we know of Brandon's personal life and religious beliefs So we look at these things, and worry that when Brandon writes "they got married" this means "and they lived happily ever after - the end". Which is not ok! Note I'm not advocating for any specific path of further development, as there are many options that could work. They just have to include the fact that Shallan is a mess and has a lot more work to do (ideally without hurting either Adolin or Kaladin too much, as I love both of them). BUT... A unique thing about Brandon among writers I have followed closely is that he seems unusually self aware about his limitations as well as strengths. A big part of why the romance elements in his previous books did not bother me is that he was smart enough not to place excessive focus on something that was not his strong spot. Stormlight is stretching his writing skills in many different directions at once, but challenging himself and increasing his skills is exactly what I've seen him do all the way through his career. I've come to believe I can trust him on this, for two main reasons: First is the incredibly realistic and insightful handling of mental illness across all three of these books. Apparently Brandon has personal experience of depression in family members, but he has also obviously done a lot of research before writing this material. His portrayals are consistently nuanced and spot on. In OB, I particularly appreciated Kaladin freezing instead of speaking the Fourth Ideal (thank you thank you for not making his depression just go away forever after he got to a better place in life and learned a couple of coping strategies!) Also the details of how we saw both Dalinar and Teft fall off the wagon - that's exactly how addiction works. Brandon obviously gets it. He would not write these characters so accurately, but then prematurely declare Shallan "fixed" in an unrealistic and implausible way. Secondly is the interlude scene with the ardent reading a romance novel. This is more than just Brandon trolling the shippers among his fanbase. He is telling us that he understands the romance genre well enough to pastiche a cliched and poorly written love triangle, and finds that ridiculous enough to poke fun at it. In other words, "don't worry folks, I know what I'm doing here". TLDR: don't panic yet. Shallan's story is not finished. Brandon knows what he is doing.
  41. 15 points
    Lift has been my favourite in all the books. I can't begin to describe how much I enjoyed the Stormfather having a virtual apoplexy about her ignoring "the rules" of life, the cosmere and everything. She's the absolute antithesis of the skybreakers. She always does the right thing and doesn't even acknowledge that there are rules, let alone follow them.
  42. 15 points
    I’m at the signing now. I’m sitting next to someone who was with Brandon earlier today. Brandon confirmed to him that Mraize has an Aviar. Mraize is not from first of the sun. There are clues in the book as to what the Aviar’s power is. Aviars are very rare at this point in time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  43. 14 points
    Currently in a re-read, and the "vision" between Nohadon and Dalinar stuck out to me. Theory: Odium saw Nohadon when Dalinar became Unity. Nohadon, either in semi-death or still alive somehow, managed to connect with Dalinar. Cultivation protected Dalinar's soul by providing the opportunity for Dalinar to bond with Nohadon, and she restored Dalinar to his broken state just in time for Nohadon to capitalize on Dalinar's open soul. 1. Dalinar is extremely connected to The Way of Kings and Nohadon. As a bondsmith, Dalinar works with connection In weird ways. 2. Dalinar's soul is cracked not only by life, but by Odium, and is temporarily "filled/protected/pruned" by Cultivation. 3. Nohadon comes to Dalinar in a dream in part 5 of Oathbringer after Cultivation has un-pruned Dalinar, exposing Dalinar's soul again. 4. The dream doesn't follow the rules of the the visions, and the Stormfather knows nothing of the latest Nohadon vision. 5. Nohadon understands Dalinar, and seems to have a strong connection to what makes Dalinar "Dalinar". They understand each other. 6. Nohadon seems real. He seems alive in the vision, and we are led to believe that this vision is a genuine interaction, not a memory or dream. 7. Nohadon, at least to Dalinar, exists. 8. Nohadon hasn't experienced the "Second Death" that the Stormfather talked about. Nohadon is semi-real (or more). 9. They talk, and Nohadon almost asks Dalinar for an oath in saying: "what are the most important steps a man can take" Later on: 10. Dalinar is left truly broken, carrying The Way of Kings as his only holy relic. Cultivation has fully opened Dalinar's soul, and now Dalinar's soul is up for grabs. Dalinar clutched to the words of Nohadon, lost in his own despair and misery, yet Dalinar keeps walking through the courtyard. Dalinar literally proffers the book as a shield, and draws the book's knowledge to keep him protected. As Dalinar's soul starts to crack, and as Odium is about to fill Dalinar's spirit-web with "passion/hate", Dalinar managed to form a connection with Nohadon, and the power of two bond smith's surge into Dalinar. This explains why Dalinar was able to do so much with the Stormfather's power, why Odium was horrified, and why Dalinar keeps hearing a voice asking to "Unite Them". I don't think it makes sense that Dalinar ascended to mini-Honour, or that Dalinar is becoming Adonalsium. That seems like too much of a power-jump too quickly. However, I will believe that Dalinar is united in spirit to a past-bondsmith, and that the unique connection there is manifesting something new, something United. Cultivation protected Dalinar's soul by letting Dalinar bond to Nohadon, and she pulled away that protection just in time for Nohadon to sneak through and fill the cracks. Dalinar's command was to, amongst other things, unite the bondsmiths. Odium is horrified to see that in place of Odium's influence, Dalinar is invested with the soul of Nohadon, somehow stitched on after the events of Dalinar's pilgrimage carrying The Way Of Kings. The Result: The Stormfather is baffled, Odium is horrified, and likely Cultivation is pleased as punch. Relevant WoBs: Q: "Nohadon is still alive, right?" A: RAFO (By my judgement, Brandon seemed both amused and surprised by the question)
  44. 13 points
    Like many before me, I have tried to predict the names of the remaining unrevealed Shards of Adonalsium. This is what I’ve come up with. First, read these two WoBs. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8689 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/247-ancient-17s-qa/#e5518 When asked if all shards have direct opposites, Brandon says no. But when asked if all shards are paired, he gives it a RAFO. So these are clearly two different questions, and “no” is only the answer to one of them. Here’s my interpretation. All shards are paired, but not all pairs are direct opposites. I propose that there are two different kinds of shard pairings: Hard Opposites and Soft Opposites. Hard Opposites are directly opposed to each other. Their intents are in absolute conflict. The obvious example is Ruin and Preservation, destructive change and benevolent stasis. The conflict between them is Irreconcilable. If the intents of Hard Opposites are like enemies, the intents of Soft Opposites are more like rivals. They ultimately seek the same goal, or address the same issue, but with different philosophies. I believe Devotion and Dominion are Soft Opposites. They are two opposing philosophies on God’s relationship with his people. Dominion thinks God should rule his people, and Devotion thinks God should serve the people. It’s easy to see these two forces warring in the mind of the original God, Adonalsium. But despite their conflicting values, they are not entirely different from one another. They agree that the people-God relationship should exist. They would both be against an atheistic world, where gods keep to themselves. They have differing views, but common interests. Simply put, Soft Opposites have conflict, but they could probably settle on the same planet without killing each other, unlike Ruin and Preservation. Their intents can potentially compromise. Now that I have these terms defined, the next step is to look at all the unpaired shards we know of, and figure out if any of them are actually each other’s counterparts. Odium Honour Cultivation Autonomy Endowment Ambition I think I see a match. I think Autonomy is the Hard Opposite of Endowment. Autonomy is all about noninterference. She doesn’t want any cosmeric stuff to interact with her native people. That’s why Khriss was allowed to leave Taldain, but not to return. And I might even theorize that Autonomy doesn’t want her people (or people in general) to have magic at all, and that she constructed the astronomical weirdness of Taldain specifically to isolate her own magic system on the Dayside, and allow the Nightside civilization to develop magic-free. Endowment is clearly the opposite. Not only does she elevate people to godhood on a whim, she gives every human on Nalthis a little bit of magic to play around with. Endowment interferes, Autonomy doesn’t. Endowment gives power, Autonomy withholds it. Direct opposites. This is where things get highly speculative. We have four shards left with no obvious opposite, so I’m going to propose some hypothetical ones to complement them. Odium’s is the easiest. Odium is hate, so his opposite is love. Or, to use a more shardy-sounding name, Adoration. A Hard opposite. I know the love shard is an unpopular guess because it seems too easy, but bear with me. Adoration is not too similar to Devotion. Devotion is divine, paternal love; Adoration is personal, intimate love. Devotion is a philosophy, but Adoration... is Passion, Dalinar. Ambition’s opposite is Humility. This one also seems a bit obvious, but I think it works. Ambition always strives to achieve more, Humility is content with what it has. They are the two halves of God’s self-image. Ambition is the justifiable arrogance of the most powerful being in the universe, and Humility is the part that empathizes with the little people, and might even be appalled by its own power. Ambition wants power, Humility doesn’t. Ambition would have fought hard against the Shattering, Humility might have welcomed it. These are irreconcilable attitudes, and therefore Hard Opposites. I think the Hard Opposites are easier to figure out. Honor and Cultivation are more complex concepts, without an obvious opposite, which, I think, means they’ll have Soft Opposites. Cultivation’s is Artifice. I propose that this pair is the part of Adonalsium that dealt with creation. Creation is their shared priority, but they approach it in different ways. Cultivation is creation by encouragement, pruning, growth, and evolution. It’s the slow, organic, gentle kind of creation. Artifice is creation by construction, assembly, engineering, gears, and wrenches. Artifice builds things. Artifice will probably be found on a constructed planet, with perfect geometry in its geography, and whole species of golems. It’ll be a world where no one would ever conceive of evolution because everything was so obviously designed. Artifice’s magic system will probably resemble a crafting system. In Arcanum Unbounded, Khriss says “[Scadrial] is one of only two places in the cosmere where humankind does not predate the arrival of Shards.” I propose the other place is Artifice’s planet. Artifice would insist on creating her own variety of humans from scratch. Honor’s Soft Opposite is Conviction. Maybe there’s a better name for that. My first thought was “Ruthlessness,” but that doesn’t sound very shardy. Honor and Conviction are both committed to right action. They both encourage doing the right thing. But Conviction believes in “the ends justify the means.” Conviction encourages getting results by any means necessary, especially underhanded or devious means. He encourages healthy competition, and the survival of the fittest. Honor, of course, is committed to consistent rightness, in both ends and means. He is the thing you don’t sacrifice in pursuit of your goals. He believes in unity and cooperation. In other words, Honor is Dalinar. Conviction is Sadeas. We now have fourteen shards. Honor and Conviction Odium and Adoration Ruin and Preservation Devotion and Dominion Cultivation and Artifice Autonomy and Endowment Humility and Ambition That means we’re missing one pair. And this pair should include... the Survival Shard. Looking at what we have so far, I think we can group the shards into categories, each with four. Divinity Shards, which deal with the role of God in human society. Devotion, Dominion, Autonomy, Endowment. Physical Shards, which deal with creating and maintaining the physical universe. Cultivation, Artifice, Ruin, Preservation. Attitude Shards, which deal with God’s own values and morals. Honor, Conviction, Humility, Ambition. Emotion Shards, which are pretty obvious. Odium and Adoration. Look at that! One category is missing a pair. And you’ll notice that each category contains a pair of Hard Opposites (marked in bold) and a pair of Soft Opposites (marked in italics). So we need a pair of Soft Opposite Emotion Shards. I propose Sorrow and Fear. This idea comes from some old mental health wisdom, and I’m sorry I couldn’t figure out exactly who to attribute this to. It says that depression is when you’re fixated on the past, and anxiety is when you’re fixated on the future. Some people get stuck in one of those. Some people oscillate between them. I think Adonalsium was one of the latter. Sorrow is God’s depression. Fear is God’s anxiety. And Fear, which constantly obsesses about the future, is the shard with the most powerful precognitive abilities. It has foreseen things none of the other shards know about. Things so terrifying that it flees from them, fearing for its own survival. I could (and perhaps will) create a table of shards, like the allomantic table, which divides them into quadrants and into Soft vs Hard Opposites instead of Internal vs External metals. Thoughts? Scathing criticism? Insults?
  45. 13 points
    Is it to fast to think that at least one of the unintended side-effects of imprisoning Ba-Ado-Mishram was that all of the parsh Connected to her at the time were robbed of not just their forms of power but all forms, locking them into the previously unknown slaveform? I had always assumed the Parsh ending up in slaveform was a purposeful action taken by the Knights Radiant. If it is instead an unintended consequence of defeating one of the world's great evils, then it really muddies up the morality waters. Enslaving an enemy is one morally questionable decision. Enslaving them and purposefully robbing them of their minds is much, much more questionable, in my eyes. But what should they have done, if this is true? The Knights know they had to defeat Ba-Ado-Mishram, if they have the chance. They succeed. Hurrah! But then all the (presumably)thousands and thousands of former enemy combatants are now mindless drones. What do you do? Slaughter them? Leave them to their own devices to die of starvation and the elements? Care for them until they all die off? Or enslave them? This makes the human/parsh relationship much more interesting to me, because before I was pretty much thinking the Knights Radiant were real dicks for the whole slavefom thing. You couldn't give them dullform? Or just mateform? This would bring a lot more context for me.
  46. 13 points
    Good morning all! So after a very poor night's sleep, I am hyped up on coffee and painkillers so if I ramble needlessly (more so than usual) I deeply apologise. Quick question actually - should I stop doing these very long posts? Are they too much? I can probably summarise my thoughts to posts made over my afk periods, but I might lose some nuance if I do. If people want me to cut them down I will - there is no point posting these monsters if people find them too hard going. For now, I'll do my usual long post, but I am going to address something about Adolin's character at the bottom that doesn't really answer a specific point (but relates to the overall discussion re Adolin) and is probably the most important bit of this if you want to skip the post/responses bit nearer the top. I was more thinking that because family planning is implied in Roshar (very few big "catholic" type families) we can use this as a basis for the discussion. That said, very few people actually know that family planning availability precedes the fall in infant mortality I wouldn't be surprised if BS didn't know so it perhaps is less relevant. Gapminder is still a storming fab resource. Interesting idea - he has actually left out the two most important interactions (or at least those that ought to have been the most emotionally charged). This is relevant. If he had included one and not the other then it would have possibly been too obvious the direction he is going? Oh yes, I completely agree. She doesn't know herself (as an aside, because - as ommented on below) Shallan is a Jane Austen heroine-esque character, it could be likened to Lizzy Bennet not knowing herself ("Until that moment I never knew myself") until she realised she had misled herself about Wickham and Darcy's characters completely. Not that I think Adolin is a Wickham by any means. hmmm I didn't think this actually happened either. Is this essentially a drawing from her imagination? Does she do it unconsciously? We got one drawing (of Nergaoul - and I still think that is relevant because she hadn't seen that Unmade at the time) that she had no memory of producing. Has she drawn this one in a similar position? OMG How did I miss this? This is huge. BS doesn't do coincidence. He foreshadows. What is the sign of the nine in terms of local Lore? Argh, I am really worried about Adolin now. It surely is an unlucky sign? Nine is so not good on Roshar. I agree - and even more so because BS rarely uses red herrings. Nearly everything thrown in seemingly at random is relevant. It is more likely that we misunderstand the foreshadowing or miss it than we spot it only to find it was misleading. He misdirects, as @Dreamstorm would say, not misleads. To quote a phrace, "coincidence? I think not!". Actually that was massivaly significant - just not to Elhokar. Wit is now a LW Roshar style, rather than using other investiture to use his Yolen form of LW. That is really big. It also showed that spren can watch an individual for a while before being chosen and that a person's choices really matter in terms of them bonding a spren. I think we can use this more than any other situation to understand the bonding process because we actually see the moment the bond starts to form. This is quite different from all our other Radiants who all are subconsciously using stormlight prior to knowing they are bonded. I doubt Elhokar is doing this prior to the attack on the Palace because he was so unwell after his assassination attempt at the end of WoR - he is only just getting better as he gets to Kholinar. What do you mean "now and advanced-level English class" ? I expect 3000 words from each of you by next week regarding your favourite character in OB with supporting quotes. I agree. It isn't useful to just keep a character as the light aside and still have them get so much screentime. Shakespeare was very good at this actually. You often got "comedic" characters but if they stayed comedic throughout the play, they were essentially only put in scenes that were used to allow costume changes for the MCs. If they were "mains" as well as comedic relief, then they had to have other arcs for their story. Many of the "jester/fool" type characters in his plays follow this pattern - they are initially there for comedic relief but then go on to have more complex roles. I am particularly pointing to Touchstone in As You Like It as an example of this - he is used for light relief but is actually one of the wiser characters and is used in many ways to tell the whole story. Obviously Hoid as "Wit" is also playing this role, but he is less of a "light" character than Adolin because we see so much less of him prior to OB and in OB he is less light. You could also argue that Benedict in Much Ado About Nothing follows a similar vein as he is pretty comedic for most of the first half of the play but as his love for Beatrice grows (or imo simply is no longer suppressed by him) he becomes a more complex and serious character - tho he never loses his ability to see the funny side of things. Indeed, the Beatrice/Benedict love story is actually much more important for that play than the Hero/Claudio love story which is the story the play ostensibly revolves around. Characters who are only there fore humour and to lighten the situation get much less time on stage. In Much Ado, Dogberry is the best example of this. If you aren't a Shakespeare buff, I would definitely recommend watching the Joss Whedon Much Ado about Nothing film. Firstly because it is really easy to follow, despite the Shakespearian language, and secondly because it is a really good study in how different romances can be portrayed - contrast Beatrice/Benedict with Hero/Claudio and you'll see what I mean Oh *blushes* thanks I am sure that isn't true about your dissertation. The essay virtually wrote itself because SA is so well written. So I probably need to add to this, but in an addenda. I think opposites can "attract" but that isn't what keeps a relationship going. I don't actually see Shallan and Kaladin as being opposite really, so much as two sides of the same coin. They are called opposite, but you can't have one without the other to make a 3D object. Thats obviously an oversimplification but I hope you see my point? Fascinating. Is this all from BS directly, or is it just the bit in bold? So I have long thought that Veil is more like the Shallan she might have been without her horrible childhood. Not that Veil is the "real her" by any means, but is the bit she has suppressed because of her upbringing (including the way her tutors tried to control her). I am pretty certain there is a WoB that he tweaked the love triangle to highlight her fracturing identity rather than he wrote it in to make sure her identity issues were clear. Given how much effort has gone into the Shalladin stuff it seems like it would be a weak plotlining device because of the way it is so rushed at the end. If Shallan had chosen Adolin in a more coherent, less rushed manner and had done so in line with the sitting/standing bits as well, I'd be more inclined to agree. I also think both Kaladin and Shallan have kind of ended up at the same point as they did at the end of WoR in terms of their relationship - and this is interesting because they also both fail to progress further as KR, despite the possibility of progression being clearly indicated in the text. I very much agree. Game of Thrones spoilers (tho if you don't know this - where is the cave you are living in and how does it have wifi?) I had missed that they both go looking for him in WoR. I think Shallan still needs another story from Wit - Kaladin has had 2 from Hoid, but Shallan has only had one so far (not including the flashback because it isn't really a story in the same vein). I am going to cover Adolin more thoroughly at the bottom of this post but I wanted to address something you mentioned here. I think people are conflating the idea of a predator being evil and it simply isn't. A lion must kill to eat, and so must the whitespine. "Good" and "Evil" can only be attributed to human behavior and they are extremely subjective terms even in that context. Whether Adolin can be seen as a whitespine or not is a separate idea to him or his actions being good or evil. I want to address the anthopomorphic personifications of whitespine, but it does have "evil" connotations because it is dangerous, but those ideas are as equally false as the idea that "cunning" is an epithet we use in the West to describe foxes. Real foxes aren't "cunning" because they don't have the necessary thought processes to manage it. They are scavenger/predators so they have traits that lend them to steathy behaviour that may look "cunning" to a person, but in reality we are simply projecting. I really want to see these! When you've got them done feel free to PM them to me. I am hoping to build a huge Urithiru like tower in minecraft between now and SA4 so any ideas about what it should look like from multiple angles would alsobe amazing The nice thing about Jane Austen is that she wasn't wedded to the idea that landed gentry were the only options for romantic heroes. Look at Anne Elliott and Frederick Wentworth in Persuasion. Wentworth is Anne's equal in terms of intellect, attitudes and understanding, but not her social equal. She is persuaded to refuse his offer of marriage 8 years prior to the start of the book - a decision she deeply regrets. Despite his earning a fortune in the Napoleonic wars, he remains her social inferior but that ultimately doesn't matter. Don't get me wrong, plenty of the Austen heroes are landed gentry, but that is as much because she was of a particular class and wrote her characters into the same social sphere because she was writing what she knew. Point is that she wanted her characters to be matched for their minds over other "political" concerns. Oh thank you I really appreciate your insights and I looking forward to adding all the addenda to make the whole analysis more rounded and complete. A song about addiction seems especially appropriate for this thread These lines stand out as particularly fitting! Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys, that she calls friends By all means - this is going to become a collaborative effort anyway so any futher thoughts are always welcome! Me too - both Kaladin and Shallan end up almost where they started - as I said above, this mirrors their KR lack of progression, though I think both are now in a place to move forward on that front so perhaps the relationships will shift as well. I don't expect Shallan to progress until SA5 and Kaladin and she will likely hit level 5 more or less simultaneaously imo. I think she needs to accept her 4th truth properly still (perhaps coincides with Kaladin's 4th ideal) and then she can move on. I don't think she is going to make any progress on this in the timeskip - assuming Adolin continues to differentiate between her alts - because she won't be addressing her fractured identity. I like this interpretation. It is very interesting. I am not sure I buy into the Shallan being influenced by Adolin (yet) - I think she wants to be influenced by him but as you say is forcing the issue. Kaladin is more honest about his emotional state than Shallan is (what's new right?) but I think because he never really considered her an option (how can Kaladin compete with Adolin after all - he's a storming prince) he doesn't allow himself to acknowledge that his feelings had any depth. I bet we find that Kaladin is away from Adolin/Shallan for the majority of the timeskip - he'll find perfectly rational reasons to avoid them - eg rescuing refugees etc. At some point though (assuming the foreshadowing is pointing toward the Shalladin outcome) then he'll be forced to confront his feelings. This may be the point at which Kaladin is actually at his most vulnerable - love is probably the most dangerous emotion humans can feel after all - it causes people to react unpredictably and somewhat out of character. Yes I agree. The "journey before destination" is very important We see that the Moash and Amaram see the "ends justify the means" and I suspect (tho I may be projecting) that Adoin feels the same way about Sadeas - a feeling that is reinforced when he sees how his peers react to Sadeas' death. Interestingly, I see the opposite as likely. I think he tries to justify the murder to himself using Dalinar as an excuse, but I don't actually think it was something foremost in his mind when he killed the man. I think he will already have solved any issues in his own mind regarding the murder by the time he finds out about Evi's death (if he ever does) and his lack of remorse will actually be even more obvious. Great point! Bingley is also terribly dull in my opinion. I wouldn't trade places with Jane Bennett for all the tea in China. Welcome Aboard the SS Shalladin. Just curl up on the deck wherever you can find room - its starting to get a bit crowded. I'd offer you a drink, but we're out I'm afraid. I just found some dried ships biscuits in the hold - its the last of the food I'm afraid and they are full of weevils, but at least that means extra protein right? I'm just glad people are enjoying it and it is proving useful for additional discussion. I like your point on choice - Shallan seems to throw her agency away at the end of OB - and she didn't need to. I mean, she could have chosen Adolin properly and then we'd all already be at the bottom of the sea likely tangled in the rigging of the SS Shalladin, a ship of corpses sailing forever on underwater current.... wow - morbid. Anyway, point is, we could have had an ending that sank our ship rather than leaving it becalmed for the next 3 years. Huh - it totally missed that - and yet she definitely felt safe in Kaladin's arms because she slept. As a non-snuggly person, I can't even sleep snuggling with my SO. I get Shallan is more tactile than I am but this takes it a bit far surely? So we know Adolin knows at least a bit of Dalinar's troubled past because he tells Kaladin so when he discussed Amaram with him (after they get out of prison in WOR). I am not sure how much Adolin knows - but he must know some of it? I mean, it seems to be pretty common knowledge that "the Blackthorn" was a crazy killing machine. What worries me, is that if Adolin knows enought to know his father was a monster, then why does he want Dalinar to be "the Blackthorn" so much in tWoK? If he doesn't then of course it implies a very romanticised view of his father , but that is then undermined by his knowing Dalinar has a checkered past. Phew, so now that's over I'd like to add my thoughts to the Adolin discussion. I haven't addressed this point by point because it is a complex subject and I want to try and keep my thoughts on it coherent. Firstly, I want to address something that occurred to me this morning. How much are we each projecting onto Adolin? This is a really important subject - and needs to be dealt with before we can go further with his character analysis. If we fail to recognise this may be an issue, then any analysis is inherently flawed. So why do I say this? Well firstly, I feel Adolin falls into a kind of "uncanny valley" in terms of his portrayal. He gets a lot of screentime from other people but relatively little time as an actual PoV character. Let me put it this way - do you know how many PoV chapters Adolin gets in tWoK for example? I massively overestimated it - he only gets 10 PoV chapters - and he shares every one of those with at least 1 other PoV character - ie Kaladin or Dalinar. This puts Adolin in a unique position in the story - he gets a great deal of page-time for his actions (at times almost equal or even greater than Kaladin) , but vastly less time for his motivations. This makes him ripe for us projecting onto him because we want to explain his actions and without his inner monologue, we have little or no information to go on. I suspect that this explains in part why some people relate to him and others do not - we are projecting different things onto him. Let us look at a specific example - his protection of the whore in tWoK. Why does he do it? Quick answer: We don't know. Long answer: We see this from Kaladin's perspective and the whole episode is coloured by Kaladin's perspective - he is not an unreliable narrator like Shallan, but he still tells things as he sees them, not as they "truly" are. We know the truth is subjective and our PoVs are equally so - and we must remember this is true for all our characters, though some may be more problematic (*cough Shallan *cough) than others. We never see Adolin think about this event. His motivations may have been pure and honourable, or they may have been base, but the crucial thing is we don't know because we don't see them. So I know people will try to draw analogies with other events and say this points to this thought patterns and behaviors, and they will have a point. The problem is that throughout all 3 books, we see relatively little of Adolin's motives. He tends to get "in the moment" PoVs - eg his duels, where his introspection is limited. That means that we have many examples of behaviors that are never explained. We can try but we are working with very limited data. The issue for Adolin's actions is that they are primarily seen through the eyes of people who want to see the best of him. Dalinar is exceptionally proud of Adolin and doesn't see his flaws particulary. Shallan wants to see him in the best light and goes out of her way to make herself like him. Even Kaladin, despite the fairly rocky start, conceded that Adolin is a decent bloke long before he acknowledges it verbally. His view of Adolin also may therefore work in Adolin's favour. This is very different from how the same characters view (eg) Sadeas - who gets almost nothing but negative ideas - even from Dalinar - throughout tWoK and WoR. We might agree he is "bad" because he opposes our heroes but let's be honest, we know even less of his motivations than we do Adolin's. He may yet be redeemed. Unlike other side PoV characters, it is Adolin's onscreen actions that are important rather than his on-screen thoughts. That seems likely to continue. But where we see Renarin's position (i.e. a good guy - definitely trying to be one based on his PoV) - we see Adolin acting in concert with his position within his family and the expectations of him. That doesn't mean he doesn't "think like a good guy" the problem is that we have limited proof of it. Renarin sees his father fail to fight Odium in his vision and pleads for him to fight (and so shows his feelings about it) and he essentially allows Jasnah to kill him (because he thinks she is probably right to) whereas Adolin does what he is told and doesn't question it. As I said, I am not suggesting that Adolin wants to question it - the point is, by not seeing himself question his own actions, we don't know where he stands. The closest we get is his introspection about how to handle Dalinar's "madness" and even then he doesn't tell us much about why he is worried. We get a few hints - that he is worried for Dalinar (understandably) or that he is worried for himself (he doesn't want to be highprince). But we don't see how he reconciles himself to his eventual outcome. Is it selfishness that drives him or selflessness? I don't think we know because we don't see him make the decision. Again, I am not suggesting Adolin's position is "evil". It is more that I think we feel like we know him as well as our 3 MCs - but in fact we don't. So given all this, where do we go from here? I think people are concerned regarding Adolin's arc progression and I just wanted to point out that (a) Sanderson wouldn't invest this much time into a character just to keep him as a light aside - so we will see more, and (b) we actually have limited info regarding where he is now so deciding his progression is difficult. I actually think the "whitespine" may be a very good analogy for Adolin as a result of this. A top predator is not "evil" or "good", it simply "is". Anthropomorphism of an animal tells us more about people than the animal in question. I feel that Adolin is perhaps more neutral than many of us would naturally place him. He has the propensity to go either way (as do we all) and thus is likely to be very important. Like Snape in Happy Potter, his position is unique and may be much more important than he initially appears. I know we can argue that "actions speak louder than words" and I would normally agree, but in a work of literary fiction, we essentially only have words and motivations are vital for truly understanding someone. I, for one, will be re-reading Adolin with this in mind and trying to decide what his PoVs alone can tell me - and try to ignore the bias regarding him that other PoVs inevitably give him. Ok, this post has taken me about 4 hours (on and off) to finish and I'm flagging. I hope I made my final point properly. I wanted to address specific points, but I can't remember them all now so I'm going to leave it for a bit.
  47. 13 points
    A mysterious lawman from an unknown location called "The Roughs" appears on Roshar to educate Nale and the wayward Skybreakers on what it truly means to be a lawman. Another mysterious individual with a fondness for hats ascends to the 5th Ideal of the Lightweavers within a single day, baffling the entire collective of Cryptics with his impressive knowledge of lies and truths.
  48. 13 points
    So, I'm going to have to disagree a little bit here because I think there's a difference between wishful thinking in how you want the character arcs to proceed and analyzing what the author puts in front of you. Maybe some fans were predisposed to want Kaladin and Shallan to be together before you even opened the book, but I bet most of us weren't. I'm going to paste in something I wrote in a PM that I think pertains to this... I think shipping has two components: (i) who you as a reader want to see character S end up with and (ii) what clues you're picking up from the author about who character S will end up with. I see (i) as being very contentious in fandoms (and a lot of what I see on 17th shard - arguments about how Kaladin is better for Shallan because of x,y,z versus Adolin for a,b,c) and something which is impossible to resolve - based on our varying experiences, we as people want different things from relationships so readers will have varying views about what they want for the character! (For example, I'm not even team Shalladin from this perspective, as I personally think Kaladin would be better with a younger Jasnah type - probably because Jasnah is my type of female protagonist, so that's what I want our main hero to want/get.) BUT (my huge but), I see (ii) as pretty objective in a well-written book; the author should be leading you down the path of selecting one option. That doesn't mean people who like one character versus another based on (i) will always be happy, but it should make sense in retrospect that the author was leading you there all along. Besides the fact I hate how Shallan made her Adolin decision (a reaction which falls into (i) since it is emotional and related to what I, myself, want to see), I find it very clear from a literary perspective that (ii) is leading to Kaladin. And if it's not, Brandon has really screwed it up from a literary perspective because although we can argue the emotional appeal of either choice until we're blue in the face, I see all of the subtle clues leading to Kaladin. Maybe it's a big red herring, but I don't think Brandon is that kind of author. I will definitely have disappointment if things don't proceed like I expect because I will have less trust in the author's craftsmanship, so I want to avoid that disappointment I feel like for me (and likely some others), the only wishful thinking that is going on is that I am hopeful that where it seems the author is leading us ((ii) in the above) is where we are actually going. I strongly want that to be the case, so yes, I am interpreting the WoBs and such from that perspective, but I don't think it's tied to my emotional response to the characters; it's tied to not wanting to have been misled (either intentionally or through poor execution.) One thing I would love to see from anyone is foreshadowing/literary subtext in support of Shadolin. I totally feel convinced from what we overtly see on the page that they could have a productive relationship (don't want to argue this point since I know others differ in this view), but I don't feel guided into that conclusion by less obvious means. Can anyone find something?
  49. 13 points
    Taln saying "what a gift..." almost made me cry.
  50. 13 points
    Lopen just lost his other arm. knock knock, who's there? not Lopen... what do you get when you cross earth with epics? not cosmere... knock knock whos there? still not lopen
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