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I was procrastinating and looking though WoBs as one does.. and this annotation from WoK stood out to me It's funny how I stumble upon this after a couple of weeks of disscusing Shallan and nitpicking everything about her.. I have conflicted opinions about this. I know there were theories and theses wrote on her on this forum, by others who see her underlayers and symbolism more than I do, but this is the first time when I actually start to belive that there is much more to her story. This gives me hope and it makes me more excited to see who the real Shallan is. But on the other side I get more annoyed and frustrated at things like this "flaring passion", used to describe Kaladin as well. UGHHGHGH I don't know what to think anymore. WHY DO YOU DO THIS TO ME BRANDON ?! You guys all debating and nitpiking don't help, because it makes me belive there is something more, but there my logic kicks in and I can't tell how much is wishful thinking and how much is reality. Oh well.. I'm just going mad I guess. The thing is now, I'm trying to imagine how all this will go. Let's assume there will be no more romantic undertones to Shallan and Kaladin, I am curios where this is going. Because I browse through a couple more WoBs and saw a lot of references about how important the interraction between those two will be. Plus their mirrored arcs until OB and all the other details that made them contrast/complement eachother. It builds up to an important connection/ relationship (not necerssarily romantic ) between the two, but then OB felt so anticlimactic, not only romantic wise, that I don't know what to think. Maybe their romantic connection had to be get out of the way before they could become close friends or something? I don't even know where I'm going with this

 Dalinar is a boss: Right when we start to like Elhokar, Moash be like: Shallan's struggles continue:

Hi all, its late here but I finally got the "essay" up if you want to read it Go here: http://www.evidencebased.info/?page_id=30 and use password: Shard Please be aware that I have only thrown this site up tonight so it is not formatted etc - and its just a wordpress site so I C+Ped in the text so the formatting isn't great but should be legible. There are no comments etc and no contact stuff is real - so please don't use it If you want to comment on it - either do so here (please tag me) or PM me directly. There are probably a few typos etc but the most important thing I'd love from you all is your feedback. Please let me know if you agree/disagree with my interpretations of each piece of evidence, or if you see something in WoR or tWoK that you think should be included. What I'll do is add additional points and post them up on the site as addenda in a few weeks. Please be aware this was written last year, long before we had any OB information (afaik) so don;t expect any of that in it. I am happy to discuss the essay in light of OB information (you'll notice I got some serious predictions wrong for example) but I'd rather leave the essay in the setting of being essentially Pre-OB. I'll do another analysis with OB stuff in it in the future and probably use this essay plus any feedback you give me to write it up. I have only put the password in to reduce traffic. The server I'm using is in the UK and it was running very slowly for me (in Cyprus) so I hope you don't have any trouble using it. If you think anyone else would be interested, feel free to send them the link and password. I will eventually get this site up and running as a proper blog type thing - you know actual pictures etc. Probably a mix of minecraft and Stormlight if I'm honest But if I change the site I'll make sure to keep that page up just in case. I'll also likely be interested in putting up anyone else's analysis in the future if anyone wants it posted. That will be some time off yet though so don't get excited! So just as a final thing, I'm not looking to fight about this. If you want to give me another interpretation of a piece of evidence I will happily include it in the addendum, but I'm not going to debate my conclusion because that was a "feelings" thing. I can't change how writing that essay made me feel at the time. I can change the way I interpret the evidence now and that may change my mind if enough is altered to change my perception of the story as a whole. I want more Adolin evidence in particular because I am worried I missed bits and that has biased my results. Anyway, hope you enjoy. PS I haven't read up the thread tonight (sorry) but I'll answer posts in the morning .

I have creeped on these pages for years. Usually trying to find out information about Hoid. But I finally decided to join after actually listening to a podcast - first time I've done that. And I don't mean it's the first time I've listened to the 17th shard podcast I mean a podcast at all. It was the podcast after Oathbringer came out. And honestly you guys just sound like a good group of friends that enjoy Brandon Sanderson's works. And that appeals to me, in fact I just got my wife to start listening to the WoK! Which actually brings me to my next point, as much as I love reading I have actually never read a Brandon Sanderson book, I listen to audiobooks. This is particularly convenient for me because I drive a lot for work. And like most of you I did get started reading Brandon Sanderson books because he finished off WoT. But this week I stopped in at Barnes and Noble and I bought the storm light books, to actually read! Though I will always hear Dalinar in my head with the amazing voice of Michael Kramer. A bit about me? Why, sure! So glad you asked! I am 29, Married, 3 kids, 2 cats (who are insufferable jerks), 1 dog (who is a good girl), and a love of SFF books. Though you may not think it to look at me. (Think former built badass, but now dangerously close to dadbod, jeans, boots, slight southern accent, truck) So I guess you could say in my typical circle of people... I don't really get to talk about things like this. Which is why am excited to say... Hello 17th! (and yes I may have a Pun/dadjoke as a thread title)

I haven't see a discussion on this WoB yet, source: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/175-oathbringer-houston-signing/#e8418 Typical cagey Brandon. I think this means that while being broken is the most common way it isn't the only way. What do you guys think?

I once spent the better part of a year inside a large stomach, being digested.

Not incomplete, just still forming. Much like how children have a greater degree of facility when learning new languages and concepts than adults do, or heal differently, they may be more subsceptible to change or new ideas. A young mind full of imagination, who has not yet had years of people telling them what is really real, and what is childish fancy to be left behind may be more readily available to adapt their imaginary spren friend into their concept of themselves. And if that just so turns out to be real, then so be it. But an adult, who is certain of their reality and identity, I can see why that may need to be fractured so something else can seep in. In this case, I see the difference being the same as the difference between shaped clay and pottery. There is a transition from one to the other. If you want to add more to the pottery after it has been fired in the kiln, you need to break it to add more, or paint over it. However, the shaped clay can be molded and remolded right up to the moment it goes to the kiln. So you can add glues, and dyes and other things before it is locked in one form. The transition to adulthood, life's kiln, where you leave your youth behind. I think it is after that point that you may need to be broken to allow a spren in.

There seems to be a theme of Radiants remember voicing from when they were young, with both Shallan and Szeth being examples. Perhaps a child's soul is more open? Having an open soul is the requirement for the spren to enter, its just that cracks seem to be the most common way.

Or maybe because you can't really talk when you're flying in front of a Highstorm and all we would get is a chapter of one of them fawning over the other in their head ? Can't get your fixation on this guys. If you want to be outraged over a missing scene why not the one where he took her to a mountainside off screen to ler her make her drawing of the tower ? She even had time to include a sketch of him ...

Shallan's struggles:

Maybe a Thaylen can hold one with their eyebrows.

So I thought it might be fun to have a satire thread to blow off a little steam about some of the stuff we thought we might have missed out on this book by coming up with our own scenes for it! To start off, I'm bringing in one I did in the wedding thread about a Szeth and Dalinar reconciliation that totally makes sense and takes little time and could have been in the book amIright? (I'm going to suggest we put all of our satire scenes in italics) ----- ["Hey tight-butt, this is my friend the assassin in white. He's a good guy and stuff now. He's got a sword that tried to eat me, but it was hungry so I forgave it. Anyway, you be nice to him or I'm going to steal all your lunches from now until forever. Got it?"] ------- How about a scene if Adolin ever was the bearer of Nightblood? ["You're not even a good sword for me. I'm a duelist, you're a...something." I'm the best sword for anyone. You just have to draw me. "I can't even hold stormlight, how am I supposed to draw you?" What if I promise not to eat you? "Can you do that?" Well, I haven't yet, but doesn't that cousin of yours say something about past performance not being an indicator of future result? "She's a Veristitalian. She'd be insulted at the very idea." Oh. Well. I'm much better than that Mayaloser. I'll show you. All you have to do is draw me. Szeth drew me all the time.] ----- How about another Zahel scene? There were far too few of those. ["No, leave me out of this. Make pretend nonsense like that makes me eat the wrong flower."] Oh, ok then. ---- Shallan and Pattern after the wedding. [Shallan blushed. "It's just not proper Pattern. I won't allow it. Don't make me summon you as a Blade and leave you somewhere!" Pattern hummed, agitated. "But how am I to learn? You tell me not to watch other people. mMmMmmm You tell me not watch you. mMmMmmm If I am not to watch anyone, and you will not speak of it, how will I ever bring knowledge back to my people?"] ----- Let's check back with with VivAzure and the Honorspren. [Azure flicked one of the beads up into the air and watched as it landed. "Colors. That was a terrible throw." Notum scratched his chin. "I still do not understand. Why is this game so needlessly complicated?" Azure rubbed her forehead between two fingers. "These people had a lot of time on their hands. You don't even want to hear the story of how they invented it." Behind them, the rest of the crew unceremoniously dumped the last of the Fused overboard and into the sea of churning beads.] ----- What have you guys got?

I actually really like this theory, children are oh so accepting of everything they see around them if a spren appeared and talked to young shallan I have no doubt she would trust it and open up to it.

When you're at chic-fil-a and a plastic wrapper is sticking to stuff, like your hand (static electricity, or so they say) and you're just like "I know you're there you tricky little spren, even though I can't see you, I know you're there"

I don't like this explanation, because that means there is literally no way to fight Odium. Options are: Use stormlight, become kick-chull, defeat desolations, Odium wins Do not use stormlight, desolation kills everyone, Odium wins This doesn't really seem to fit with power usage in the Cosmere. An example from Oathbringer would be Shallan's illusions near the end - the book mentions each illusions death returning the power to Shallan so she could create another. Odium didn't get it. I have seen many people claiming that the reason the Radiants broke their oaths was because the discovered that humans were not native to Roshar, but that wasn't my reading at all. It seemed clear to me that they broke their oaths because they discovered that maybe they (surgebinders) were responsible for destroying the planet they originally came from. With no more desolations (as far as they knew), I think they decided that surgebinding was the greatest danger to the planet. They broke their oaths to stop surgebinding, not out of some misguided sense of regret for a conquest that happened thousands of years before (which would be stupid - I can't believe that every radiant of almost every order would make that choice). I think the big mystery is where in the cosmere the humans came from, how it was really destroyed, and why Odium came with them. I think its possible that Humans came from a world that Odium destroyed (maybe Threnody?) and the past is simply misinterpreted. I doubt that the humans worshipped Odium when they came, and I don't see how the gods of the parshendi and humans could have so neatly switched.

There is also Timbre's favorite way to comunicate, through pulses and beats, we saw the Reachers (or Lightspren) able to comunicate with each other using the vibrations using the ship's metal deck as vector of comunication. Of course we could not have the 100% proofs, but almost all the clues point to Timbre as a lightspren. The only slight counter is her look regard the Lightspren we saw in the Cognitive Realm. But honestly we saw also, Sapient "StoneSpren" and probably those are the Stonewarden's spren.

Also, that would obviously make Ico's deadeye father Timbre's grandfather:

So, someone pointed me to this link, which is about as WoB as it gets. http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/253 Here's the last sentence of that bit, but I do recommend reading the whole thing. So, that suggests that stuff is going to happen regarding Sadeas. If it isn't resolved, than he is just going back on what he has said.

(Just as a note: I'm not sure what you're saying or asking for us in your edit in the first post. Are you saying you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar is deserving of redemption? Or that you want us to evaluate whether Elhokar has earned redemption?) I think that Elhokar is deserving of the redemption arc that he was given. We see very clearly as far back as WoR that he knows things are wrong and that he isn't the person the nation needs, but he doesn't know how to be that person. Every action he makes, every sentence he speaks in OB is directed at being the person that is needed, but taking into consideration what will happen when he fails. Not if; when. He himself makes that distinction so very, very clear. How anyone can say that someone who knows that they have done wrong and is actively doing absolutely everything that could possibly be expected of anyone to be better isn't deserving of any redemption at all is shocking to me. In comparison, I personally find the Szeth redemption arc to be one that I have a hard time stomaching. The man willfully and wantonly committed murder and brutality on an unprecedented scale because his religious beliefs demand that he do what a man holding a rock said. Szeth did not think what he was doing was wrong; he predicted the chaos and devastation that would come. And he did it anyway. For me, if someone cannot recognize what they are doing, I will judge them less harshly than if they can. Ignorance is not an excuse, but it can often be a mitigating factor. It can be incredibly difficult to know how to walk the path if there is no guide (or worse, thousands of poor guides). To know the path, and refuse to walk it? No matter your intent, no matter your goals, no matter the end result--I will never forgive them. Was Elhokar's redemption complete? No. But I really do believe that he had been acting on it in very real ways throughout the entirety of OB; he had paid the first 100 pence of a 10,000 talent debt to refer to the conversation @Ookla the Obtuse and @Lightning were having. His debt was so very large and he was ill equipped to pay much of what he owed, but he had definitely shown that he was wanting to pay it to the people who he owed the most--the citizens of his country. If he hadn't, then he would still be alive, in Urithiru.

Personally, I find it highly unlikely that Shallan and Adolin will ever have children. Not because of infertility, but because everytime things start to get frisky, Pattern will probably some remark along the lines of "Facinating! You two do it differently then Dalinar and Navani" and kill the mood completely.

I hadn't considered it pre-the Wit advice, but will see what I can find. I'm definitely going to it for the second half of OB, and I'l post it here I always associated Adolin with whitespines, given his WoR chapter called Whitespine Uncaged when he starts the 4v1 duel. A brief look at this just where I think it could be of reference though as I do a search I'm less certain about the Adolin symbolism. Or more certain that Adolin will go dark if I believe the symbolism I took a stab at interpreting what these could mean.... WoK Ch 39 Burned Into Her: Shallan notes scholars like to study "big, dynamic animals, like greatshells or whitespines" though she is interested in the shalebark/cremling symbiosis. Uh, this is easy, Shallan is not that into whitespines. WoR Ch 20 Coldness of Clarity: Shallan thinks the bandits see her as a mink wandering into the whitespine's den. Shallan is soon to be the mink wandering into the Kholin court. Ch 43 The Ghostbloods: Shallan likens visiting the Ghostbloods to walking into a whitespine's den. This is like going to the Kholin court for the first time. In both she is wearing Lightwoven disguises too. Ch 55 The Rules of the Game: Adolin compares Shallan hugging Wit to her hugging a whitespine. This is when they visit the captive whitespine and Shallan notes to Kaladin that whitespines don't do well in captivity. Shallan hugs Wit, just like Shallan hugs Adolin the whitespine. Adolin doesn't do well in captivity. (Dark Adolin....) Ch 56 Whitespine Uncaged: "Adolin attacked. He lept forward, sweeping with a barrage of strikes at Relis. Elit jumped away to curse as he did so. They were like men with spears prodding at a whitespine. And this whitespine was not yet caged." Obvious tying Adolin to whitespine Ch 64 Treasures: Kaladin imagines himself caged like the whitespine in the menagerie. Adolin is also in jail with Kaladin Ch 70 From a Nightmare: Shallan likens the chasm fiend to a whitespine as it exudes power, only more enormous and alien. I could way far out here about how Kaladin is the chasm fiend (which they see together) and Adolin is the whitespine (which those two see together) and both are powerful and Kaladin is more enormous and alien. This might be stretching it even for me But more seriously, Adolin does exude power. Ch The Four: Sadeas tells Adolin he and Dalinar are two whitespines circling each other ("it's me or him") right before Adolin kills him. Adolin is actually the whitespine who made the kill. OB Ch 22 The Darkness Within: Ialai mentions whitespine behavior in reference to who killed Sadeas as someone who would be lurking nearby. Shallan notes this means "Why have you returned to the scene of the kill, Kholin?" This was when I really linked whitespine and Adolin since it was done explicitly again. Obviously Adolin is the one who killed Sadeas so this is him. He is actually lurking nearby. Ch 63 Within the Mirror: Shallan notes cities are not civilized places, no more than a whitespine was domesticated just because a collar is around its neck. More Adolin going dark symbolism Ch 83 Crimson to Break: Adolin compares going into Kholinar palace with its spearman like a whitespine's den. Well, he is taking back his own den... Let me know what you think. There are two extremely obvious places where Adolin is overtly referenced as a whitespine, so that does say to me this is something intentional. However, I don't know how much I believe it unless Adolin is going to go dark... I apologize for double-posting but I don't know how to do quotes from posts of multiple pages... @Ookla the Grey can you combine me? (And feel free to educate me!) I'm so torn. I read Adolin as sweetness and light, a non-dramatic person in this story who won't go dark. But stuff like this, and my possibly quite tenuous whitespine symbolism investigation, leave me thinking that there is something to this... This is a pretty big about face from what we're slapped in the face with so many times - one must take responsibility for one's actions... Do not have my mind made up here. I don't have many opinions in the Shallan baby fight (maybe just because I feel like it's so unlikely? I feel this way about the Syladin stuff too), but I wanted to point out that so far Brandon hasn't gone this route. Vin and Elend marry end of WoA, there's a one-year time skip and then all of HoA and nary a mention of possible baby or a baby made. That's two years of sex! Same for Breeze and Allariane (who Brandon notes in annotations are married in spirit since Scadrial at that time didn't really have marriage - neatly avoiding premarital sex, lol), and we've got three years of sex going on there. It may be a natural progression IRL, but so far (that I've read) it doesn't seem to be something Brandon has explored or necessarily even sees as the assumed next step after marriage.

The title is pretty self explanatory. This is my opinion of how the Cosmere on screen should be conducted. This is for something along the lines of how it could be done with Netflix even though the rights have been taken by DMG. I know Brandon has said that it’s not likely to be done as an animated movie given how stuff like that has to be framed for kids, but there seems to be an advent of love for adult fantasy lately. Netflix seems like the easy answer for a platform here, but really, they’re already dipping their toes into expanding shared universes. I’m thinking two movie specials. One of Elantris and one of Warbreaker. These cover the books as much as they can. Then a spring release of Stormlight Archive season 1 covering Way of Kings. Then a winter release of Mistborn season 1 covering The Final Empire. It will keep with the regular alternating release of Stormlight then Mistborn and maybe a summer double feature movie of White Sand somewhere down the line. It should take about 10 years total to cover most of the Cosmere. Stormlight will end on ten books and Mistborn will end Era three on ten books. (Final era Mistborn will be addressed in a bit). At this point, the Cosmere franchise will be left with the Dragonsteel storyline. Given that the other backbone series have been completed, this will be sort of a ‘rebirth’ moment for the audience where the Cosmere line will be more streamlined. Only having to follow one series after all these would make everything feel fresh. (Honestly, it’d be like that moment you organize your books and declutter). So. Dragonsteel would cover seven seasons (one per book). Maybe they could do a Voltron thing where they sometimes release two seasons per year. When that’s finished, the final Mistborn series comes into play. Maybe they make the audience wait a little longer than usual for its release given how for more than a decade, a movie or tv series have been given in quick succession. Given how Mistborn Era 4 is the capstone to the Cosmere, it should probably be released as it’s own series and not under Mistborn. Maybe under a title like Cosmere: The Final Era. It will tie up the universe and should have longer than normal episodes to try to get as much of the books in there as possible. Naturally, even under a format like this where there’d be more story material than a movie, we still can’t have everything from the books present. As a compromise, Brandon would be a regular consultant and source for what should absolutely be kept from pivotal scenes to character moments. Stuff like this probably won’t happen but I wanted you to know what you guys think of this. Maybe you have a better suggestion of how things could be done?

No mating! Mating? No, wrong word. Mating… No… Negativity. Negativity! No negativity! This is word I wanted. Drat, good puns are impossible for those with poor vocabulary. There are some negative threads about Shallan and I thought it would be nice to have a positive one to balance things. She deserves this. So let’s follow Shallan’s example and forget the things that bother us about her for a while. Lighten up and make bad jokes to express you appreciation of her character or write a whole essay Jasnah would be proud of! I’ll go first She’s persistent – she followed Jasnah for months, and then relentlessly pursued the cause of finding Urithiru. She loves her family. No matter what became of them. Her art is an amazing addition to the books, and in-world it inspires people to be better. She always gets involved with very interesting people. And Unmade. How does she find those? Don’t ask. She is one of the few characters to make the Blackthorn tear. That is quite the accomplishment. I mean, the guy intimidates the forces nature… So thank you Shallan for being here to show us a girl can marry the handsome prince and also save the world. It’s all about that work-life balance, folks.

I propose the following: The Fused are to Odium as the Returned are to Endowment The Returned are to Endowment as the Heralds are to Honor This provides the bridge to the commonly supposed theory that... The Fused are to Odium as the Heralds are to Honor All of this is based on this WoB (note the words in blue): We have been told by previous WoBs that Returned are Cognitive Shadows, too. This has implications for Vasher/Zahel and it is interesting to ponder the connection to Kelsier, Shades on Threnody and other Cognitive Shadows that we've seen across the Cosmere. Brandon appears to be refining his definition of what a Cognitive Shadow is, how it manifests in the Physical Realm vs. the Cognitive Realm, and what a Cognitive Shadow is able to do. Random Thoughts and Cosmere Questions I'm most interested in how Cognitive Shadows die (or don't die). On Roshar, I'm dying to know what happens to regular folks who don't go on to become Cognitive Shadows when they die because it doesn't look like it did on Scadrial during M:SH. All we know so far is that Cognitive Shadows who die in the Physical Realm on Roshar appear to respawn in the Cognitive Realm on Braize/Damnation. So what happens to regular people immediately post-mortem if their consciousness isn't manifesting in Shadesmar? Are they popping up in the Cognitive Realm on Ashyn? That might line up with the Vorin theological explanation of the afterlife... If Vasher/Zahel were to die on Roshar, would he go to Braize or is that reserved for those tied to the Oathpact in some way? Speaking of Vasher, I really want an explanation for how he avoids consuming his Divine Breath. Is he feeding on other sources of investiture, or did he find some way to permanently suppress need to consume a breath's worth of investiture each week? It seems to me that Nightblood uses his sheath to permanently suppress his investiture consumption while maintaining a presence, consciousness, and sapience in the Physical Realm. Why is it that a those who are naturally born on Nalthis never consume their breath? Can Nalthians hold investiture better than other planets' human populations? Could a Nalthian hold stormlight better or even perfectly? If so, a Nalthian Knight Radiant / honorblade holder would be formidable. The Heralds don't seem to have a need to regularly consume investiture. So I wonder... does Kelsier consume investiture when he manifests in the Physical Realm, or is his use of Hemalurgy sufficient to sustain his physical manifestation until his physical body is destroyed? How do Threnody's shades fit into all of this? Isn't Threnody primarily invested by splinters of Ambition? If Ambition's investiture isn't sentient like spren or seons, who is investing the Shades? Is it something that the dead do post-mortem (i.e. the ceremony Nazh alludes to in his meeting with Kelsier)? It's worth noting that they seem to be permanent without the need to regularly consume investiture like the Heralds and unlike the Returned. Jezrien's Murder Weapon I also think that Cognitive Shadows' dependence on investiture to exist tells us that the blade that killed Jezrien either killed him by consuming and storing his investiture, or converted him into investiture and stored Jezrien's consciousness. I think the first option is most likely now that I think about it, even though until now I preferred to think that Jezrien had been captured by the blade in the same way that the Thrill had been captured by the perfect gem/King's Drop. If you think Jezrien has been captured within the blade's sapphire, then would drawing him out result in the death of the person trying to rescue him (like how the Fused essentially *erase* their host body's consciousness when they posses a Singer)?

Hi there thanks for having me. A little about myself my Names Rob and im from the UK iv'e been Reading Fantasy and Sci fi for over 30 years when it was announced that Mr Sanderson was chosen to Finish The Wheel of Time Series i had never come across any of his work and was a little worried. I searched for something of his to see if Wot was in Safe hands and im so glad i did Mistborn and Elantris led me to the Rest of his works and iv'e never looked back so here i am joining the rest of you im waiting for the next Installment from Brandon

First of all, this is *not* my own theory. This theory was originally posted here however it's such a great theory that explains a lot about the Shards and fits so perfectly I'm certain that at least the core of it is correct. I haven't seen this theory posted here already so I figured I'd post it here as well for those that don't read reddit.

That's amazing. Sometimes, when I'm listening to music and need something else to occupy my mind, I will imagine characters (more often than not Sanderson characters) singing or dancing to the songs. Current favorites include Bridge Four singing to the Cheetah Girls with a synchronized dance number, the Mistborn crew enthusiastically dancing the Cotton-Eyed Joe dance, and Odium singing Be Prepared, complete with a backup girl chorus. It's hilarious.

During Adolin, Azure, Kaladin, and Shallan's little adventure in Shademar we are introduced to the Lightspren (Reachers). Once they arrive in Celebrant Captain Ico takes Adolin below deck to the hold of the ship to recover Maya. While there, we find out that Captain Ico's father is a deadeye. That brings up the question; which order are they the Spren of? I think we can make a reasonably educated guess that the Lightspren are the Spren of the Stonewards Willshapers. We can eliminate the Windrunners, Skybreakers, Dustbringers, Edgedancers, Lightweavers, Bondsmiths, and Elsecallers as we know what type of Spren their orders are affiliated with. This leaves us with the Truthwatchers, Stonewards, and Willshapers. We have seen the physical manifestations of the Willshaper and Truthwatcher Spren (via Timbre and Ym's Spren [Renarin's is corrupted so should be ignored for this purpose]). Typically, a Spren manifests in the Physical realm as an incomplete version of their Cognitive aspects. The descriptions of these Spren are nothing like the Reachers. We also have some contextual clues from a WoB that the Lightspren are not the Truthwatcher Spren. Brandon typically does not lie and has said that he hasn't decided what the Truthwatcher Spren will be called and doesn't want to canonize it. This would eliminate them from being the Spren of the Truthwatchers. Relevant WoB: Also contextual clues in story make me think that Timbre is a Starspren (in addition to the description of Timbre and the comments by Venli, travelling/exploring using the stars as a guide is a very Willshaper-y thing to do). We have several contextual clues that indicate that the Reachers are the Willshapers' Spren: -As @Blacksmithki pointed out, the Reachers are the guides of Shademar and often travel around the Cognitive realm. -As I mentioned a couple of posts down, The Willshapers essence of Foil with the Soulcasting property of Metal seems to fit well with the Bronze-ness of the Lightspren. -The fact that they are only bonding Listeners as of now works well with their distrust of Humans. -As @Ookla the Obtuse & @HoidsRock addressed below the Conversation between Venli and Timbre about Timbre's grandfather and Ico mentioning his daughter pretty clearly identify the Lightspren as those of the Willshapers. -@Yata Also pointed out the way the Lightspren seem to communicate on the ship seeming similar to Timbre communicating with Venli via the Rhythms. This leaves us with the Stonewards; There are two large clues that indicate to me that this is their order; first, We know via Dalinar's visions that the Stonewards' Plates and Blades glow an Amber color. The Reachers are described as looking like they are made out of Bronze. Second, Captain Ico says that his kind no longer trust humans, we have yet to see any new Stonewards, is this because the Lightspren are the only holdouts that have not restored their bonds with men? From a storytelling standpoint this would be a good contrast as Taln was the last to break his Oath. TLDR: Lightspren = Spren of the Stonewards Willshapers

Because the guy who joined Odium kills Kaladin's father... Kaladin will now also join Odium? I can't really see it happening. Kaladin has had issues with his feelings against lighteyes (but Moash isn't a lighteyes anymore), but I think Kaladin's saving-people-thing and his feelings of responsibility are too overdeveloped to be tempted by Odium.

No book so no quote: but I believe that the Blade given to Moash after he killed Jezrieh was the Honorblade that Mr. T had. Odium got it from him after their talk at the end of the book.

Well, I think part of this is how the bond is formed. Regals have to have a voidspren in their gemheart; it's not like the nahel bond where the spren is separate...At least that's my understanding.

If Moash kills Lirin, it could send Kaladin on the path to join team Odium. Storms, it could set him up as Odium's Champion against Dalinar. All the seeds are there if you think about it. I would probably hate this outcome, but I could see Lirin's last words haunting Kaladin to the point that he would be tempted to give Odium his pain.

Little Noah came into the house with a new harmonica. "Grandpa, do you mind if I play this in here?" "Of course not, Noah. I love music. In fact, when your grandma and I were young, music saved my life." "What happened?" "Well, it was during the famous Johnstown flood. The dam broke and when the water hit our house it knocked it right off the foundation. Grandma got on the dining room table and floated out safely." "How about you?" "Me? I accompanied her on the piano!" Did you hear about the stupid pianist who kept banging his head against the keys?He was playing by ear. Why is a person who plays the piano called a pianist but a person who drives a race car not called a racist? A pianist and singer are rehearsing "Autumn Leaves" for a concert and the pianist says:"OK. We will start in G minor and then on the third bar, modulate to B major and go into 5/4. When you get to the bridge, modulate back down to F# minor and alternate a 4/4 bar with a 7/4 bar. On the last A section go into double time and slowly modulate back to G minor."The singer says: "Wow, I don't think I can remember all of that."The pianist says: "Well, that's what you did last time." Saint Peter is checking ID's at the Pearly Gates, and first comes a Texan. "Tell me, what have you done in life?" says St. Peter. The Texan says, "Well, I struck oil, so I became rich, but I didn't sit on my laurels--I divided all my money among my entire family in my will, so our descendants are all set for about three generations." St. Peter says, "That's quite something. Come on in. Next!" The second guy in line has been listening, so he says, "I struck it big in the stock market, but I didn't selfishly just provide for my own like that Texan guy. I donated five million to Save the Children." "Wonderful!" says Saint Peter. "Come in. Who's next?" The third guy has been listening, and says timidly with a downcast look, "Well, I only made five thousand dollars in my entire lifetime." "Goodness!" says St. Peter. "What instrument did you play?"

https://www.goodreads.com/choiceawards/best-fantasy-books-2017 Am I the only one that finds it a shame that potterheads have so much sway in such things? I knew it was a long shot for oathbringer, but I was hoping.

The theory I've seen floating around is Ico is Timbre's father, and she's the "daughter chasing stupid dreams." I apologize, I don't know who originated the theory so I don't know to whom credit belongs for it.

If she keeps handing the kid off to others to raise it, then can we really say she is fulfilling motherhood? Evi was with Renarin half of each year. She had Adolin with her almost all the time from my understanding. If Shallan has to keep giving the baby to others to look after it, is this actually looking at the very real situation where a woman has to juggle motherhood and a working life? Most real women don't have the "luxury" of letting their kids be raised by someone else - they have to manage their own work and the raising of their children (ideally with the support of their partner, but many women manage without that too). To suggest that we would be getting an interesting take on a working mother in the KR then saying she can just palm the kid off to some nanny negates the idea that we'd be looking at motherhood in a fantasy setting. We wouldn't be - the kid would be dealt with off-screen and Shallan wouldn't need to worry about it. What does that do for the story? What conflicts does it raise? It isn't a realistic portrayal of motherhood for the vast majority of people - both in-world and IRL. No matter what anyone says Prince William and Kate are not raising a normal family - they are royals and thus those kids are getting nannies all the time. And they aren't trying to save the world. If Shallan has a baby, the most interesting way (imo) to take it is for her to take on the primary carer role. This means she has to commit a huge amount of time to her kid. That is normal. She also has a 24/7 commitment to the KR - she is their only known LW at present. And what about her doing stuff for the Ghostbloods? How will they react to her not dealing with Sja-Anat because she's pregnant/nursing? What about her wardship? She can't continue her wardship and her commitments to the KR and have a kid. There just aren't enough hours in the day. Particularly when she also has a mental disorder. And, as I said, if she just gives up care of the kid to someone else, then (from the story perspective) why have it in the first place? Plenty of couples don't have kids in their first year of marriage, so if they don't get pregnant it wouldn't be completely unrealistic. I suppose one other option would be for Adolin to be a working dad, but I am not sure that will be an option from a Vorin perspective. This could be an interesting twist but we have no idea about Adolin's attitudes to parenting. Indeed, I am not sure we know much about his attitudes to all sorts of things that are actually important when starting a life together. It might be interesting to look at a male caregiver but the issue is that if Adolin does it poorly, people will say it is a stereotype and if he does it well then people will resent him for being too perfect. It would be a difficult line to tread imo. Actually it does. Shallan's OSDD is likely a result of pooly formed attachment to her family unit that occurred during her very earliest years. If you don't have stable parental figures around, it massively impacts personality and attachment and thus affects all relationships going forward. Shallan may already have passed on some risk of poor attachment (some personality types may be more prone) so doing this could be very bad for her kid. If they have one person acting as a replacement parent then it can work - but then she won't have a real relationship with her kid. Think Victorian era royalty - there's a reason all the European royal families could essentially sell of their kids to gain political power - they weren't attached to them. I can see it working from a literary perspective, but it would also make me really dislike Shallan if she is prepared to get pregnant (when we have some evidence that thereis some family planning available on Roshar - most people not having huge families being the evidence) but then just gives it all up for her career and doesn't care. I am not sure Sanderson can pull that off and still keep her sympathetic. If she wants to do both roles then she has to embrace both fully to remain sympathetic. If she doesn't think she is ready for motherhood (which is a reasonable stance no matter your age) then she shouldn't have a baby if she wants to focus on other things for now. Not necessarily. If neither parent is regularly involved in the parenting there is neglect - the child might be raised by others in a safe way and be happy and healthy. Thats fine, but then we lose the conflict the child storyline should bring because the true "parents" would be those who raised the kid, not Shallan and Adolin because they might not be around that much. With only a year time-skip the baby would be very small if they had to go elsewhere to do whatever needs to be done. This. Is. Amazing. Really great analysis. I had totally missed how much Adolin is linked to the whitespine. It is fascinating because I think of Kaladin as being more like the chasmfiend in more senses and there are some interesting things we could point to regarding this as well (I'll probably post something on this later if anyone is interested). So what I want to think about first though is what the whitespine represents to Shallan and how they are seen both as creatures that exist in an ecological niche (ie how Shallan the naturalist would see them) and how they are viewed in their anthropomorphic setting (ie how Shallan the artist would see them). So here is a non-exhaustive list of what we know about whitespines: Top predator People go on hunts for them as they are "trophy" kills They are very dangerous They like to predate scavengers as well as other prey They need to go dormant during their lifecycle (and form a crysallis/crystal when they do so). It is unclear whether this is seasonal, age-related, sex-related or part of a lifecyle where they can pupate into something else (last one seems unlikely) They do poorly in captivity (reasons unclear- may be food types, lack of space, prevented from going dormant, others also likely) They are (likely - certainly implied) solitary animals They (probably) have a gemheart - but we have seen no spren associated with them at this point. Can we relate this to Adolin in more thorough ways? Probably tho I expect this to cause some debate Adolin is basically "top" predator now - he is a highprince, but was always top of society (the alethi court is the most ferocious in the world according to Shallan (WoR) Adolin could be considered a "trophy" as he was the most eligible bachelor in Alethkar (even ROshar). I think this is even more true when we see how Shallan objectifies him throughout her narratives in OB and WoR (NB Adolin doesn't objectify her nearly as much - his objectification is pretty much limited to the beginning of their acquaintance) Well Adolin is dangerous - Ialai Sadeas calls him a "weapon" and Torol agrees - saying you rarely get hurt by a weapon you are holding. He wasn't holding Adolin tho (he was a whitespine uncaged after all) Adolin doesn't like hunting (this is a reach I know) Er.....not sure how this might relate? Perhaps his trip to prison was more of a dormancy period than captivity? We haven't seen Adolin in true captivity - he weathered his time in prison fine (Kaladin tells us this) - but then it was essentially entirely optional and he was given access to the outside world via spanreeds etc. He even got his cologne in.... Well Adolin was not good at relationships prior to Shallan - we have yet to see if it will work out because they've only known each other a few months. Not clear how long his previous courtships lasted - it is thought he may have been engaged previosuly (Tyn said so) but have no further confirmation. It seems most of these relationships failed as a result of his actions/boredom. Can't see a link here either unless no spren for whitespine = no spren for Adolin? If we think we can use the whitespine as an allegory for Adolin, I am not sure that Shallan is hugely invested in them. She seems much more fascinated by the chasmfiend but then it was wild/free and the only chasmfiend we see her see is caged and thus not terribly inspiring. She doesn't seem to think of whitespines with quite the same reverence though. Good point. I think it is safe to say he might choose to go there because this is his magnum opus but at the same time it would be a departure from his normal pattern. If he did want to explore it more he might feel more comfortable doing it in the gap between the front and back fives. Great point. I have felt uneasy about Adoli killing Sadeas right from the start but he made me actively dislike him for a moment when he said he was "proud" and that he'd "do it again" - Rock clearly felt awful about killing Amaram, Kaladin killing Szeth was retconned out, Dalinar has taken the responisbility for killing all those people, including Evi but Adolin seems to feel that he isnt responsible. It is very odd. It also feels like he is avoiding responsibility on multiple fronts because he also avoided being king. It isn't analogous to Vivenna either - despite what she said to him. She tried to take resposnibility and couldn't - by the time she was in position to take it, she realised she didn't need to. Adolin didn't have a suitable alternative in mind. Actually, it is a sign of reduced autonomy of women. Even in areas with high infant mortality, provision of contraception that women control (eg the pill) tends to reduce birth rates. Reduced birth rates --> reduced death rates because small populations are less prone to disease spread and each child can get more resources to live and grow. Have a look at Gapminder https://www.gapminder.org/ignorance/ Yes I agree. We are supposed to be able to infer something. It isn't like that IRL because even if you could watch inside a real person's head during their wedding, the thoughts will be much less clear, more varied, and you'd get to see the ceremony etc. We didn't see Shallan and Adolin after the wedding - so we only have her pre-wedding thoughts. To assume that they can be pushed away because IRL it is fine to have a moment like that to help yourself get over any nerves (eg like @maxal said - thinking "I look gorgeous" makes you feel good and then look even better - and everyone wants to look good on their wedding day) but you probably had some other feelings either on that day or possibly the next (weddings are stressful so I can see people just being too exhausted to be over the moon initially) - we don't see that from Shallan, and we likely never will. Yes I can definitely see the similarity - their second personas being particularly important as part of their story arc. I was hoping for some kind of name thing but I can't find one - de Valette is the surname of the grandmaster of the Knights of St John (the Hospitallers) who founded Valletta (capital of Malta) but i can find no meaning behind it. Anyone got any ideas? Yes this - and we can see Navani and Hesina deal with working motherhood - I am not sure what Hesina does but we know Navani has a significant role in the court of Urithiru. Not sure this is going to be that important - based on a 10-15 year gap they will all still be in their teens. So far the youngest we have is Shallan - the rest are in their 20s now. Perhaps Gavinor will be old enough to take the crown from Jasnah then, but a new baby born in the 1 year timeskip between OB and SA4 will only be 14-15 years old - and we don't know for certain that the gap is guaranteed because we didn't expect big time gaps within the front 5 but they've come in anyway. On top of that, it means introducing them as clean slate characters because we won't have seen them grow up so they will essentially strangers to us. Childhood - especially as very small children, can't accurately predict adult personality. As a side note that I think fits with this idea from a purely literary perspective - Kaladin looks for "light" - he is attracted to Shallan's "light" and lives off Tien's "light". It fits that Tien and Shallan can therefore both make him smile even when the weather is awful. Obviously not a real situation, but it highlights that his mood is very weather dependent. True - iirc you need persistently low mood for at least 3 weeks for it to be called a recurrence of MDD. And as he definitely has SAD then those instances cant really be counted because they occur due to a different factor -you'd have to see if the low mood lasted beyond the end of the weeping to see if it could be considered a new episode of depression. The memories have been shunted off to Veil and Shallan is blocking them so she wouldn't tell us about them I am not saying I'm right but Shallan is very unreliable so it is totally possible that she is suppressing them and pretending it didn't even happen. We don't see her think about it at all and we don't get anticipation about either episode either. Sorry guys, another long post. Oh, and if we do go down the Shadolin baby route, I will be calling that baby Damien!

So, I'm not going to comment on the rest of that post. However, as a member of said ilk, I'm kinda disturbed by that. The phrasing implies an element of division. Aren't we supposed to be a community as a whole? I mean no offense, nor am I attempting to defend or disparage anyone, I just feel that the general tone of the message implies a division, though I'm not sure who the "sides" are in that matter. I think that's what disturbs me the most. It seems to me like an "us vs them" moment.

I don't really think Kaladin has depression as a disorder. He is at times depressed, but those times coincide with episodes of seasonal affective disorder, or with extremely traumatic events that would make anyone depressed without the need for a depressive disorder pathology other than SAD. He behaviour most of the time is inconsistent with a depressive disorder other SAD. Outside of certain episodes of SAD and extreme duress, he does not demonstrate the cognitive triad of depressive symptoms described by Beck, nor the clinical criteria for a diagnosis of major depressive disorder. Most notably he is particularly driven and motivated at these times, which is the opposite of how depression presents. BS does a wonderful job of presenting depression at the times he genuinely is experiencing it, but depression is rarely rapid cycling enough to be accurately portrayed the way Kaladin experiences is. I find it much more plausible that he experiences depression as a consequence of an episode of seasonal affective disorder and occasionally as a normal response to extreme duress which isn't pathological.

When you're just sitting on the couch and have this random thought of the Stormfather singing "Friend Like Me" to Dalinar, and then you choke on your own saliva and start laughing and coughing at the same time.

I imagine Jasnah as Lesley-Ann Brandt, she plays Mazikeen in Lucifer: two more in spoilers for length:

Man, every time someone brings up Moash's actions, I just have to comment that I *really* thought he was going to lead Sah and company against the Fused after he helped them pull their sled thingy (I forget what it was exactly). Moash killing Elhokar stung, especially because we see it through Kaladin's eyes. Kaladin doesn't even know Moash's history after leaving the warcamps. In my head, the scene plays out in slow motion as soon as Elhokar starts to say the words. Then I imagine Moash striding in, ignoring everyone else, and just stabbing Elhokar who isn't even fighting at this point. And then he has the gall to nod / salute to Kaladin as if to say "Mission accomplished," turning around and striding out again. @Nepene I messed up the quoting, but you make a fair point. Becoming a Radiant definitely isn't the end of a redemption arc. Look at Malata.

I pretty much agree. I don't agree that he wasn't deserving of redemption, because I believe that absolutely anyone is capable of change, but from a storytelling perspective, this ending was the entire reason for his "redemption. He made just enough strides forward to hook the reader for the emotional jerk at his death. It was masterfully done. I doubt many would have been outraged at Elhokars death a month ago.

I believe I've identified a section of Navani's Ketek: I think we're saying that this glyph, tsameth, is probably "death", as in "life before death". If that's true, I'd guess that in the ketek, it's translated as "deadly", the middle word of the poem. (Alight, winds approach deadly approaching winds alight.)

Just because he is on the Dawnsinger's side, doesn't mean he necessarily sided with Odium. Make inferences:

I really wanted to see a Jasnah and Navani reunion. Also I was brokenhearted about the lack of a Jasnah and Wit Magnificent Roadtrip. Guys, we need this novella.

Not only is he both a Surgebinder and a Voidbinder, but he isn't unique. It stands to reason that to have a bridge you need to have two ends. Now we do; Renarin and Venli.

I think Shallan is the best character that Brandon has ever written, by a wide margin. The Stormlight Archive (and to some degree, most Cosmere novels) feature a ton of characters with serious psychological and emotional issues. In all cases it's pretty clear what Sanderson is going for (e.g., Kaladin is manic-depressive, Jasnah relies on strict behavioral crutches to handle emotional trauma, Renarin is Renarin) but I've found the execution many of these characters' personalities to be wooden at times (Kaladin being the worst offender, I think). Shallan, on the other hand, is a joy to read. I think my favorite piece from Oathbringer might be this bit of Shallan PoV from Chapter 30:

I love Shallan. She is a wonderfully written character and, honestly, she has inspired me a lot. I learned to draw way better because of her, I learned to pay more attention to my surroundings, I learned to try to see the best in people. .. I relate to her a lot. Even though I don't have the extent of having full separate personalities, I do have trouble with being unable to be myself around people. I am almost always acting - pretending - around people, because I don't want anyone to see the flaws in me. For me, it got so bad once, that when someone told me to be myself, I kind of froze and said, "i. . . Don't know how." Even though Shallan hasn't yet gotten better with this problem (we don't even know if she even will), seeing how those bad things could happen still encouraged me to try to be better, and has inspired me to start being more genuine. I just love her, and it is really refreshing to see others that do too

Can I make a list? -Something with Rysn. I have zero idea why I like her so much, but I do, and there's no point in denying it. -Nohadon and his life/journey to Urithiru. -A Bridge Four Novella. Nothing but Bridge Four. -Jasnah, prior to Way of Kings, focusing on her research and interaction with the Ghostbloods. -Adolin winning his Shardblade/becoming the honorable fella that he is. And Finally: -I Am a Stick: The Novel